Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain

Fed up talking videogames? Why?

GRpredicts: Will Brexit be delayed again?

Yes
71
60%
No
48
40%
 
Total votes: 119
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Karl_
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Karl_ » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:59 pm

Moggy wrote:But we have Facebook to take over and that's even worse and far more unregulated than the right wing rags could ever be.

This is mostly true, but I feel like it's more plausible that the left will eventually become good at Facebook propaganda, than it is that left-wing tabloids will outcompete right-wing ones.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Karl_ » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:00 pm

There are rumours of a Fox News style channel heading to the UK though, and that is definitely something that the left can't compete with. :lol: :(

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Moggy » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:00 pm

Karl_ wrote:
Moggy wrote:But we have Facebook to take over and that's even worse and far more unregulated than the right wing rags could ever be.

This is mostly true, but I feel like it's more plausible that the left will eventually become good at Facebook propaganda, than it is that left-wing tabloids will outcompete right-wing ones.


We live in a very very strange world when you are more optimistic than me. :lol:

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Karl_ » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:11 pm

Moggy wrote:We live in a very very strange world when you are more optimistic than me. :lol:

:lol: I'm not optimistic really. I think you've got to look for opportunities though.

The left is currently not achieving what should be two core goals: 1. creating really vicious propaganda and 2. distributing it with sufficient reach to radicalise people. The death of the tabloids is an opportunity to address this.

The Canary in 2016-17 was an early attempt which shows it can be done. I'm not here to defend everything they printed, but they were more effective at exploiting the Facebook algorithm than any other left-wing source at the time, and used that reach to distribute hard-left propaganda.

I'm not saying it's likely we'll be wildly successful though. I think it's more likely that just as The Sun breathes its last rancid breath it'll be replaced by a British Fox News. But there you go.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Lex-Man » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:17 pm

It's harder to create a left wing propaganda wing though because by nature people on the left are more discerning with what sources they'll trust. On the far right people will share Sam Harris articles where Harris attacks "left wing snowflakes" even though they disagree with him on almost every other point or Farage gets away with calling all of his supporters scum and they still follow him. On the left you don't get that kind of leeway as soon as you're seen as untrustworthy person you're out. That's what happened to the Canary, they were publishing half truths and over stating things and people got sick of them and refused to trust them, but with Breitbart their supports will accept anything as they are owning the Libs.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by DML » Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:00 pm

Lex-Man wrote:It's harder to create a left wing propaganda wing though because by nature people on the left are more discerning with what sources they'll trust. On the far right people will share Sam Harris articles where Harris attacks "left wing snowflakes" even though they disagree with him on almost every other point or Farage gets away with calling all of his supporters scum and they still follow him. On the left you don't get that kind of leeway as soon as you're seen as untrustworthy person you're out. That's what happened to the Canary, they were publishing half truths and over stating things and people got sick of them and refused to trust them, but with Breitbart their supports will accept anything as they are owning the Libs.


The problem is there are more far right people in this country then far left in this country. If you drag everyone far left - you lose every time. You can't do it. You also can't win by telling everyone off all the time, which seems to be a big problem for the left at the moment. Do this, don't do that, that's outrageous. There does need to be a positive message. When Obama had one in the USA, a far more right wing country than our own, actual change was able to happen, albeit it wasn't some far-left utopia/hellscape.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Rocsteady » Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:07 pm

Karl_ wrote:
Moggy wrote:We live in a very very strange world when you are more optimistic than me. :lol:

:lol: I'm not optimistic really. I think you've got to look for opportunities though.

The left is currently not achieving what should be two core goals: 1. creating really vicious propaganda and 2. distributing it with sufficient reach to radicalise people. The death of the tabloids is an opportunity to address this.

The Canary in 2016-17 was an early attempt which shows it can be done. I'm not here to defend everything they printed, but they were more effective at exploiting the Facebook algorithm than any other left-wing source at the time, and used that reach to distribute hard-left propaganda.

I'm not saying it's likely we'll be wildly successful though. I think it's more likely that just as The Sun breathes its last rancid breath it'll be replaced by a British Fox News. But there you go.

The problem is that nowadays, social is as much a paid channel as newspapers. Organic social reach is completely dead - I think it was Coke's CEO who said he could reach more people with 500 dollars than with all of the millions of followers they have across social channels.

Which, again, primarily favours the right as it's they who have the funding to push agenda change to their benefit.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Meep » Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:20 pm

Obama is the perfect example of centrist failure. Nothing was achieved that was not totally undone in a few years of his successor. This despite controlling both houses for most of that time. Putting aside the fact that radical change is desperately needed, sooner rather than later, appeasing the right does nothing to shift the Overton window and just locks in the rightward drift under previous administrations. You do not see those on the right talking about how they have to accommodate the left. You cannot reach compromise with an enemy who wants to utterly destroy you. They will always demand more ground until you are standing in the sea.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Karl_ » Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:22 pm

DML wrote:You also can't win by telling everyone off all the time, which seems to be a big problem for the left at the moment. Do this, don't do that, that's outrageous.

What has "the left" told you not to do that you find unfair?

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Lex-Man » Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:37 pm

Karl_ wrote:
DML wrote:You also can't win by telling everyone off all the time, which seems to be a big problem for the left at the moment. Do this, don't do that, that's outrageous.

What has "the left" told you not to do that you find unfair?


I don't think people like being told to do anything even if they think it's the right thing to do.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Karl_ » Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:45 pm

Lex-Man wrote:
Karl_ wrote:
DML wrote:You also can't win by telling everyone off all the time, which seems to be a big problem for the left at the moment. Do this, don't do that, that's outrageous.

What has "the left" told you not to do that you find unfair?

I don't think people like being told to do anything even if they think it's the right thing to do.

Sure, OK - there's optics and rhetoric and the psychology of how to change minds and all that. But at some point the left is going to have to make points like "don't be racist".

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Hexx » Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:55 pm

I just don’t get how anyone can look at this performance and be happy that that this is their PM/government

What the hell or wrong with Brexiteers/Tories!

It really is all just about beating ‘the enemy’ isn’t it

L

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Lex-Man » Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:56 pm

Karl_ wrote:
Lex-Man wrote:
Karl_ wrote:
DML wrote:You also can't win by telling everyone off all the time, which seems to be a big problem for the left at the moment. Do this, don't do that, that's outrageous.

What has "the left" told you not to do that you find unfair?

I don't think people like being told to do anything even if they think it's the right thing to do.

Sure, OK - there's optics and rhetoric and the psychology of how to change minds and all that. But at some point the left is going to have to make points like "don't be racist".


But it can't be all "don't be racist." you need some kind of better society, this will be good for you message that people can get behind.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Jenuall » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:00 pm

A society with less racism is better though. "don't be racist" isn't really a statement that needs a justification :lol:

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by DML » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:00 pm

Karl_ wrote:
DML wrote:You also can't win by telling everyone off all the time, which seems to be a big problem for the left at the moment. Do this, don't do that, that's outrageous.

What has "the left" told you not to do that you find unfair?


Its not the fact its unfair, its the fact you are being told off. When you are a kid, you don't like being told off, even though everything you are doing is actually probably wrong and therefore its 'right'.

But people won't vote to people who tell them off.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by That's not a growth » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:01 pm

Jenuall wrote:A society with less racism is better though. "don't be racist" isn't really a statement that needs a justification :lol:


Yeah, but like how can I make money from being less racist?

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by DML » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:03 pm

Karl_ wrote:
Lex-Man wrote:
Karl_ wrote:
DML wrote:You also can't win by telling everyone off all the time, which seems to be a big problem for the left at the moment. Do this, don't do that, that's outrageous.

What has "the left" told you not to do that you find unfair?

I don't think people like being told to do anything even if they think it's the right thing to do.

Sure, OK - there's optics and rhetoric and the psychology of how to change minds and all that. But at some point the left is going to have to make points like "don't be racist".


May I suggest that moment is when they are IN power?

The Tories have drifted further and further right since being elected. See no reason why the same advantage couldn't be taken the other way. They could have absolutely zero complaints.

Also, I know its demoralising to see Tories at 40%, but at one point they had a 20 point lead in the polls. They are absolutely tanking, who knows - they might start to lose that seemingly core 40% of voters.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Hexx » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:03 pm

I actually feel sick listening to Johnson now.

I strawberry floating hate this shitehole of a country

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Tomous » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:04 pm

Jenuall wrote:A society with less racism is better though. "don't be racist" isn't really a statement that needs a justification :lol:



The people that are being told not to be racist believe racism is justified though

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Hexx » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:06 pm

Or they don’t believe it’s racist.

It’s not racist if it’s true etc.

There’s a surprisingly large number that know racism is ‘bad’. But they can’t be bad. They’re they can’t be racist no matter what they say/do/lynch/set on fire etc


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