Brexit Thread 3 - Project Reality

[That]

"proletarian internationalism and abolishing borders is against core socialist values" - the Marx Understander has logged on

[Lex-Man]

When we get a new election it'll be interesting to see who wins where. It seems like the Tories are betting on getting hold of some of the northern Labour strong hold, while the Lib Dems are probably hoping to take control over places in London especially the Tory controlled areas. Labour seem to be trying to appeal to basically everybody around Brexit although I see that tactic massively backfiring.

[BID0]

The Lib Dems are mainly targeting Con/Lib constituencies and criticising Corbyn is part of the way to pull votes from remain leaning conservatives. When the time comes I think she will support Labour in getting a second referendum. Probably not through an official coalition but something more like a DUP style Confidence and Supply arrangement.
I could see the next government being a Labour minority with agreements with both Lib Dems and the SNP to keep them in power. Though ideally the Lib Dems would somehow win with a majority and just immediately revoke on day 1.

It's all well and good saying "It should only be cancelled through a second referendum" but that just plays into the will of the people bullshit. The electorate should be told they were wrong in the last referendum and why they were wrong, not pandered to. The reason we elect MPs is because it's their job to understand issues the public don't understand (like EU membership) and to then make the best decision for the well being of the country and it's people. Otherwise we'd be having a referendum every week on every single thing that was going through parliament.

Though it's a valid point that Corbyn shouldn't be fence sitting this late in the game. Corbyn is still trying to be all things to all people by not committing to anything solid when it comes to Brexit.

And the above post sums up exactly why so many people voted leave and are entrenched in their positions

[Lagamorph]

The Lib Dems are mainly targeting Con/Lib constituencies and criticising Corbyn is part of the way to pull votes from remain leaning conservatives. When the time comes I think she will support Labour in getting a second referendum. Probably not through an official coalition but something more like a DUP style Confidence and Supply arrangement.
I could see the next government being a Labour minority with agreements with both Lib Dems and the SNP to keep them in power. Though ideally the Lib Dems would somehow win with a majority and just immediately revoke on day 1.

It's all well and good saying "It should only be cancelled through a second referendum" but that just plays into the will of the people bullshit. The electorate should be told they were wrong in the last referendum and why they were wrong, not pandered to. The reason we elect MPs is because it's their job to understand issues the public don't understand (like EU membership) and to then make the best decision for the well being of the country and it's people. Otherwise we'd be having a referendum every week on every single thing that was going through parliament.

Though it's a valid point that Corbyn shouldn't be fence sitting this late in the game. Corbyn is still trying to be all things to all people by not committing to anything solid when it comes to Brexit.

And the above post sums up exactly why so many people voted leave and are entrenched in their positions

So how do you suggest you tell people that were wrong that they were wrong? 3 years of pandering to them hasn't worked so what else is left besides outright telling them "You don't understand the EU or how membership works, leaving the EU is wrong and here's why"

[Lex-Man]

twitter.com/dphinnemore/status/1174216467124051970

The point of these offers isn't to get a deal it's to make it look like it's the EU'S fault when we crash out.

Yes.

But that Tweet shows Johnson still doesn’t even understand what the problem with the border is. And he’s still getting shocked when things are explained to him.

He’s been a senior politician for a long time and fails to grasp the basics of this problem.

He’s not a clever man pretending to be a bumbling fool, he actually is a bumbling fool.

I don't think he's a genius but I can totally see him acting up the surprise. I find it hard to believe that he didn't know that this wouldn't cover the backstop, I mean he will have been briefed.

[Moggy]

twitter.com/dphinnemore/status/1174216467124051970

The point of these offers isn't to get a deal it's to make it look like it's the EU'S fault when we crash out.

Yes.

But that Tweet shows Johnson still doesn’t even understand what the problem with the border is. And he’s still getting shocked when things are explained to him.

He’s been a senior politician for a long time and fails to grasp the basics of this problem.

He’s not a clever man pretending to be a bumbling fool, he actually is a bumbling fool.

I don't think he's a genius but I can totally see him acting up the surprise. I find it hard to believe that he didn't know that this wouldn't cover the backstop, I mean he will have been briefed.

He will have been briefed. But did he listen and/or understand the briefing? And who did the briefing, if it was Cummings or was edited by Cummings then it wouldn’t have contained much truth.

[Moggy]

Brexit can, and should, only be cancelled through a second referendum. Its literally the only acceptable way to do it in a democracy.

The current lib dem policy has only really harmed the call for a people's vote. It's a very naive proposal. I'm sure it will convince a few remainers, but I think the vast majority would probably be a bit uncomfortable cancelling the whole thing without going back to the people.

Not to mention, there isn't a hope in hell of getting that policy through parliament.

That policy only applies if the Lib Dem’s win an outright majority, so under those circumstances it stands a very good chance of getting through Parliament. It won’t happen though because the LDs will not win a majority.

I fail to see how it’s harmed the call for a people’s vote either. Who out there wanted a referendum but now doesn’t want one because the LDs would cancel Brexit if they won a General Election?

[Lagamorph]

[Preezy]

Come on, let's not pretend that there aren't actually some genuine tangible benefits to leaving the EU:

1. We survived WW2, we can survive Brexit
2. Leave means leave
3. Sport are troops
4. Trade deals with Papua New Guinea
5. Corbyn is in the IRA
6. Britannia rules the waves
7. It's the will of the people
8. Europe owe us for WW2
9. There are plenty of rabbits in the fields
10. The EUSSR need us more than we need them

[Errkal]

You lost get over it
Salty remoaner tears

[Moggy]

Come on, let's not pretend that there aren't actually some genuine tangible benefits to leaving the EU:

1. We survived WW2, we can survive Brexit
2. Leave means leave
3. Sport are troops
4. Trade deals with Papua New Guinea
5. Corbyn is in the IRA
6. Britannia rules the waves
7. It's the will of the people
8. Europe owe us for WW2
9. There are plenty of rabbits in the fields
10. The EUSSR need us more than we need them

You forgot Mark Francois in a stab vest.

[BID0]

The Lib Dems are mainly targeting Con/Lib constituencies and criticising Corbyn is part of the way to pull votes from remain leaning conservatives. When the time comes I think she will support Labour in getting a second referendum. Probably not through an official coalition but something more like a DUP style Confidence and Supply arrangement.
I could see the next government being a Labour minority with agreements with both Lib Dems and the SNP to keep them in power. Though ideally the Lib Dems would somehow win with a majority and just immediately revoke on day 1.

It's all well and good saying "It should only be cancelled through a second referendum" but that just plays into the will of the people bullshit. The electorate should be told they were wrong in the last referendum and why they were wrong, not pandered to. The reason we elect MPs is because it's their job to understand issues the public don't understand (like EU membership) and to then make the best decision for the well being of the country and it's people. Otherwise we'd be having a referendum every week on every single thing that was going through parliament.

Though it's a valid point that Corbyn shouldn't be fence sitting this late in the game. Corbyn is still trying to be all things to all people by not committing to anything solid when it comes to Brexit.

And the above post sums up exactly why so many people voted leave and are entrenched in their positions

So how do you suggest you tell people that were wrong that they were wrong? 3 years of pandering to them hasn't worked so what else is left besides outright telling them "You don't understand the EU or how membership works, leaving the EU is wrong and here's why"

Cancelling this whole mess without canvassing the entire population on the very specific question is just going to keep this dragging on for years more. It might be split down the middle and end up being slightly more in favour of revoking A50 but there still won't be any majority to put an end to the subject.

Also telling people they were wrong/unable to comprehend the subject and then ignoring any of the reasons why they voted to leave originally is just going to enrage and have them double down even more. It's the main reason the vote was lost before because people saw it as throwing a spanner in the works to people like you, which it has because now your life as well as theirs has been inconvenienced too.

The Liberal Democrats are possibly one of the worst parties to handle this and the inevitable aftermath as they will not have any policy to address the issues that gave rise to people voting to leave. At least the Conservative plan seems to be dramatically strawberry floating us all rather than placate a certain percentage of the population to keep things running as they are.

[Moggy]

The Lib Dems are mainly targeting Con/Lib constituencies and criticising Corbyn is part of the way to pull votes from remain leaning conservatives. When the time comes I think she will support Labour in getting a second referendum. Probably not through an official coalition but something more like a DUP style Confidence and Supply arrangement.
I could see the next government being a Labour minority with agreements with both Lib Dems and the SNP to keep them in power. Though ideally the Lib Dems would somehow win with a majority and just immediately revoke on day 1.

It's all well and good saying "It should only be cancelled through a second referendum" but that just plays into the will of the people bullshit. The electorate should be told they were wrong in the last referendum and why they were wrong, not pandered to. The reason we elect MPs is because it's their job to understand issues the public don't understand (like EU membership) and to then make the best decision for the well being of the country and it's people. Otherwise we'd be having a referendum every week on every single thing that was going through parliament.

Though it's a valid point that Corbyn shouldn't be fence sitting this late in the game. Corbyn is still trying to be all things to all people by not committing to anything solid when it comes to Brexit.

And the above post sums up exactly why so many people voted leave and are entrenched in their positions

So how do you suggest you tell people that were wrong that they were wrong? 3 years of pandering to them hasn't worked so what else is left besides outright telling them "You don't understand the EU or how membership works, leaving the EU is wrong and here's why"

Cancelling this whole mess without canvassing the entire population on the very specific question is just going to keep this dragging on for years more. It might be split down the middle and end up being slightly more in favour of revoking A50 but there still won't be any majority to put an end to the subject.

Also telling people they were wrong/unable to comprehend the subject and then ignoring any of the reasons why they voted to leave originally is just going to enrage and have them double down even more. It's the main reason the vote was lost before because people saw it as throwing a spanner in the works to people like you, which it has because now your life as well as theirs has been inconvenienced too.

The Liberal Democrats are possibly one of the worst parties to handle this and the inevitable aftermath as they will not have any policy to address the issues that gave rise to people voting to leave. At least the Conservative plan seems to be dramatically strawberry floating us all rather than placate a certain percentage of the population to keep things running as they are.

This is going to drag on for years more whatever happens.

Cancel Brexit? Leavers will be up in arms (hopefully not literally) and Farage will gain seats and keep pushing for us to leave.

A referendum? If Remain wins, see above.

If Leave with a deal won? We still have to agree, sign and pass a withdrawal agreement and then spend decades negotiating trade deals. All while Remainers campaign to rejoin and Farage campaigns to ignore the deal and go full WTO.

The Lib Dem idea seems to have created a stir but it is utterly irrelevant as the Lib Dems will not win the election. Their “We will revoke Article 50!” is no different to Farage’s “We will walk away with no deals and we will refuse to pay anything!”. Neither side are ever going to be in a position where they can act on it.

Personally I would prefer a referendum, no matter how stupid Brexit is, it shouldn’t be cancelled without a vote. But if the impossible happened and the Lib Dems won the election, I wouldn’t be upset if they just cancelled the whole damn thing.

[Lagamorph]

The Lib Dems are mainly targeting Con/Lib constituencies and criticising Corbyn is part of the way to pull votes from remain leaning conservatives. When the time comes I think she will support Labour in getting a second referendum. Probably not through an official coalition but something more like a DUP style Confidence and Supply arrangement.
I could see the next government being a Labour minority with agreements with both Lib Dems and the SNP to keep them in power. Though ideally the Lib Dems would somehow win with a majority and just immediately revoke on day 1.

It's all well and good saying "It should only be cancelled through a second referendum" but that just plays into the will of the people bullshit. The electorate should be told they were wrong in the last referendum and why they were wrong, not pandered to. The reason we elect MPs is because it's their job to understand issues the public don't understand (like EU membership) and to then make the best decision for the well being of the country and it's people. Otherwise we'd be having a referendum every week on every single thing that was going through parliament.

Though it's a valid point that Corbyn shouldn't be fence sitting this late in the game. Corbyn is still trying to be all things to all people by not committing to anything solid when it comes to Brexit.

And the above post sums up exactly why so many people voted leave and are entrenched in their positions

So how do you suggest you tell people that were wrong that they were wrong? 3 years of pandering to them hasn't worked so what else is left besides outright telling them "You don't understand the EU or how membership works, leaving the EU is wrong and here's why"

Cancelling this whole mess without canvassing the entire population on the very specific question is just going to keep this dragging on for years more. It might be split down the middle and end up being slightly more in favour of revoking A50 but there still won't be any majority to put an end to the subject.

Also telling people they were wrong/unable to comprehend the subject and then ignoring any of the reasons why they voted to leave originally is just going to enrage and have them double down even more. It's the main reason the vote was lost before because people saw it as throwing a spanner in the works to people like you, which it has because now your life as well as theirs has been inconvenienced too.

The Liberal Democrats are possibly one of the worst parties to handle this and the inevitable aftermath as they will not have any policy to address the issues that gave rise to people voting to leave. At least the Conservative plan seems to be dramatically strawberry floating us all rather than placate a certain percentage of the population to keep things running as they are.

So what were the reasons people voted leave that were made with a firm understanding of how the EU works?
Immigration? Nope, nobody seemed to understand that we already had the power to curtail EU immigration and fully controlled non-EU immigration already. If you voted Leave because of immigration then you didn't understand how the EU and membership works, plain and simple.
We send £350million per week to the EU? Nope, that was a bullshit made up number that completely ignored the rebate and EU investment into UK infrastructure/social/science projects. If you voted leave because of that bus you fell for a lie and ignored all evidence to the contrary.

The only reason there was to vote Leave that could be made with a full and firm understanding of the EU was "gooseberry fool, I'm a millionaire who exploits dozens of tax loopholes and the EU want to crack down on that gooseberry fool" or "I'm a millionaire and stand to make millions more from the UK leaving the EU"

[Moggy]

twitter.com/pickledpuffin/status/1174244582604849153

We will never get through to thick, selfish and horrible banana splits like that.

[Preezy]

I hope Sandra drowns whilst on holiday abroad in a country that the RNLI used to send aid to.

[Garth]

twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1174364495541673984

Deadline is during the Tory party conference.

[BID0]

The Lib Dems are mainly targeting Con/Lib constituencies and criticising Corbyn is part of the way to pull votes from remain leaning conservatives. When the time comes I think she will support Labour in getting a second referendum. Probably not through an official coalition but something more like a DUP style Confidence and Supply arrangement.
I could see the next government being a Labour minority with agreements with both Lib Dems and the SNP to keep them in power. Though ideally the Lib Dems would somehow win with a majority and just immediately revoke on day 1.

It's all well and good saying "It should only be cancelled through a second referendum" but that just plays into the will of the people bullshit. The electorate should be told they were wrong in the last referendum and why they were wrong, not pandered to. The reason we elect MPs is because it's their job to understand issues the public don't understand (like EU membership) and to then make the best decision for the well being of the country and it's people. Otherwise we'd be having a referendum every week on every single thing that was going through parliament.

Though it's a valid point that Corbyn shouldn't be fence sitting this late in the game. Corbyn is still trying to be all things to all people by not committing to anything solid when it comes to Brexit.

And the above post sums up exactly why so many people voted leave and are entrenched in their positions

So how do you suggest you tell people that were wrong that they were wrong? 3 years of pandering to them hasn't worked so what else is left besides outright telling them "You don't understand the EU or how membership works, leaving the EU is wrong and here's why"

Cancelling this whole mess without canvassing the entire population on the very specific question is just going to keep this dragging on for years more. It might be split down the middle and end up being slightly more in favour of revoking A50 but there still won't be any majority to put an end to the subject.

Also telling people they were wrong/unable to comprehend the subject and then ignoring any of the reasons why they voted to leave originally is just going to enrage and have them double down even more. It's the main reason the vote was lost before because people saw it as throwing a spanner in the works to people like you, which it has because now your life as well as theirs has been inconvenienced too.

The Liberal Democrats are possibly one of the worst parties to handle this and the inevitable aftermath as they will not have any policy to address the issues that gave rise to people voting to leave. At least the Conservative plan seems to be dramatically strawberry floating us all rather than placate a certain percentage of the population to keep things running as they are.

So what were the reasons people voted leave that were made with a firm understanding of how the EU works?
Immigration? Nope, nobody seemed to understand that we already had the power to curtail EU immigration and fully controlled non-EU immigration already. If you voted Leave because of immigration then you didn't understand how the EU and membership works, plain and simple.
We send £350million per week to the EU? Nope, that was a bullshit made up number that completely ignored the rebate and EU investment into UK infrastructure/social/science projects. If you voted leave because of that bus you fell for a lie and ignored all evidence to the contrary.

The only reason there was to vote Leave that could be made with a full and firm understanding of the EU was "gooseberry fool, I'm a millionaire who exploits dozens of tax loopholes and the EU want to crack down on that gooseberry fool" or "I'm a millionaire and stand to make millions more from the UK leaving the EU"

If you’ve followed documentaries such as “Anywhere but Westminster” then you will have noticed a common theme for people voting leave is because they felt left behind and ignored by our own Government and find it impossible to live a basic life thanks to government policy (that the libs were a part of) on austerity

If the Tories follow through with their recent spending proposals then The Liberal Democrat’s will actually be running to the right of the conservatives on topics such as austerity

twitter.com/mattzarb/status/1173683755116052480

If you couple that with proposals for flat out revoking A50 you will just fan the flames that got us to this point and give ammunition to that side of the argument.

I know that leaving Europe won’t make their voices stronger in Parliament, nor will it increase public spending for infrastructure in their areas but that is the view they hold. Not engaging with these voters and waving them away as idiots and morons is going to exasperate things and lead to a 75% leave vote in decades time.

I noticed that the Liberal Democrat’s aren’t actually united on the latest Brexit stance though with a few of their MPs dancing around answering questions on the topic or backing a people’s vote instead.

[Lagamorph]

The Lib Dems are mainly targeting Con/Lib constituencies and criticising Corbyn is part of the way to pull votes from remain leaning conservatives. When the time comes I think she will support Labour in getting a second referendum. Probably not through an official coalition but something more like a DUP style Confidence and Supply arrangement.
I could see the next government being a Labour minority with agreements with both Lib Dems and the SNP to keep them in power. Though ideally the Lib Dems would somehow win with a majority and just immediately revoke on day 1.

It's all well and good saying "It should only be cancelled through a second referendum" but that just plays into the will of the people bullshit. The electorate should be told they were wrong in the last referendum and why they were wrong, not pandered to. The reason we elect MPs is because it's their job to understand issues the public don't understand (like EU membership) and to then make the best decision for the well being of the country and it's people. Otherwise we'd be having a referendum every week on every single thing that was going through parliament.

Though it's a valid point that Corbyn shouldn't be fence sitting this late in the game. Corbyn is still trying to be all things to all people by not committing to anything solid when it comes to Brexit.

And the above post sums up exactly why so many people voted leave and are entrenched in their positions

So how do you suggest you tell people that were wrong that they were wrong? 3 years of pandering to them hasn't worked so what else is left besides outright telling them "You don't understand the EU or how membership works, leaving the EU is wrong and here's why"

Cancelling this whole mess without canvassing the entire population on the very specific question is just going to keep this dragging on for years more. It might be split down the middle and end up being slightly more in favour of revoking A50 but there still won't be any majority to put an end to the subject.

Also telling people they were wrong/unable to comprehend the subject and then ignoring any of the reasons why they voted to leave originally is just going to enrage and have them double down even more. It's the main reason the vote was lost before because people saw it as throwing a spanner in the works to people like you, which it has because now your life as well as theirs has been inconvenienced too.

The Liberal Democrats are possibly one of the worst parties to handle this and the inevitable aftermath as they will not have any policy to address the issues that gave rise to people voting to leave. At least the Conservative plan seems to be dramatically strawberry floating us all rather than placate a certain percentage of the population to keep things running as they are.

So what were the reasons people voted leave that were made with a firm understanding of how the EU works?
Immigration? Nope, nobody seemed to understand that we already had the power to curtail EU immigration and fully controlled non-EU immigration already. If you voted Leave because of immigration then you didn't understand how the EU and membership works, plain and simple.
We send £350million per week to the EU? Nope, that was a bullshit made up number that completely ignored the rebate and EU investment into UK infrastructure/social/science projects. If you voted leave because of that bus you fell for a lie and ignored all evidence to the contrary.

The only reason there was to vote Leave that could be made with a full and firm understanding of the EU was "gooseberry fool, I'm a millionaire who exploits dozens of tax loopholes and the EU want to crack down on that gooseberry fool" or "I'm a millionaire and stand to make millions more from the UK leaving the EU"

If you’ve followed documentaries such as “Anywhere but Westminster” then you will have noticed a common theme for people voting leave is because they felt left behind and ignored by our own Government and find it impossible to live a basic life thanks to government policy (that the libs were a part of) on austerity

If the Tories follow through with their recent spending proposals then The Liberal Democrat’s will actually be running to the right of the conservatives on topics such as austerity

twitter.com/mattzarb/status/1173683755116052480

If you couple that with proposals for flat out revoking A50 you will just fan the flames that got us to this point and give ammunition to that side of the argument.

I know that leaving Europe won’t make their voices stronger in Parliament, nor will it increase public spending for infrastructure in their areas but that is the view they hold. Not engaging with these voters and waving them away as idiots and morons is going to exasperate things and lead to a 75% leave vote in decades time.

I noticed that the Liberal Democrat’s aren’t actually united on the latest Brexit stance though with a few of their MPs dancing around answering questions on the topic or backing a people’s vote instead.

Either you completely ignored my question because you don't have any legitimate reasons why someone voted Leave, or you're saying a legitimate reason people voted Leave as an anti-government protest, which only proves that they didn't know what they were voting on as the EU referendum was nothing to do with national government policy beyond EU membership.

Sometimes people are wrong, either they were idiots or they believed a pack of lies, and they need to be told so.

[That]

It's important that we address the issue of Brexit without pandering to the far-right rhetoric that led people to vote for it. On some level that does mean, more or less, telling Brexit voters they were wrong. However, I agree with Bido that it's pointless to do this without understanding the root cause of the "working class anti-Westminster Brexit vote" and offering a meaningful alternative.

The best way to construct a movement that both defeats Brexit and prevents far-right projects like Brexit from succeeding in future is to offer people real improvement in their lives, implemented via genuinely radical policies.