Brexit Thread 3 - Project Reality

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Carlos
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - Project Reality
by Carlos » Sat May 28, 2022 5:08 pm

Fade wrote:If that merch isn't proof that politics is literally just "my team Vs your team" I don't know what is.


Generally speaking the public isn't as pigeonholed as the media and politicians make out. I think most people know you can't solve problems from the fringes and you need compromise to get things done. Voters are a mix of right and left and might veer one way or the other depending on how things are.

Full-on rightwing capital C conservatism is just as bad as full on leftwing socialism. Both sides need each other to reign in their worst excesses and bring things back to the center point.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - Project Reality
by Cuttooth » Sat May 28, 2022 9:43 pm

Carlos wrote:Full-on rightwing capital C conservatism is just as bad as full on leftwing socialism. Both sides need each other to reign in their worst excesses and bring things back to the center point.

If either of these ideologies were to disappear overnight do you believe that the resultant world would be equally as "bad" no matter which one were to go away?

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - Project Reality
by Nibble » Sat May 28, 2022 10:17 pm

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Carlos
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - Project Reality
by Carlos » Sun May 29, 2022 9:13 am

Cuttooth wrote:
Carlos wrote:Full-on rightwing capital C conservatism is just as bad as full on leftwing socialism. Both sides need each other to reign in their worst excesses and bring things back to the center point.

If either of these ideologies were to disappear overnight do you believe that the resultant world would be equally as "bad" no matter which one were to go away?


The collapse of both Nazi Germany and the USSR would suggest so.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - Project Reality
by Cuttooth » Sun May 29, 2022 10:27 am

I get for lots of people the concept of the "truth being somewhere in the middle" is a comfortable crutch but at some point we have to acknowledge that the centrist, slow improvement to the status quo and energy spent on hearing both sides is a waste of time in the face of an increasingly calamitous and unjust future, for which the centre offers no real answers.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - Project Reality
by Stugene » Sun May 29, 2022 3:46 pm

Carlos wrote:Full-on rightwing capital C conservatism is just as bad as full on leftwing socialism.

I don't think so, Tim.

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Carlos
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - Project Reality
by Carlos » Sun May 29, 2022 5:25 pm

Cuttooth wrote:I get for lots of people the concept of the "truth being somewhere in the middle" is a comfortable crutch but at some point we have to acknowledge that the centrist, slow improvement to the status quo and energy spent on hearing both sides is a waste of time in the face of an increasingly calamitous and unjust future, for which the centre offers no real answers.


In many ways I completely agree. Compromise is just as likely as dithering. Having a dual-party system doesn't work either as you end up with a system like the USA where one is utterly corrupt and then just nerfs all ideas of the other and nothing is achieved beyond a low, lingering death.

Despite holding centrist views I do realise that the only way to make Britain a fairer society is to massively break up the class and political system:

- Get rid of the monarchy (I have nothing against the royals but to unclass Britain you have to start at the top)
- Devolve the country into regional prefectures along the lines of the Swiss model to break up the power of Westminster who would remain in control of federal things like currency and defence.
- Replace Lords with a citizen's assembly people sit on akin to Jury Duty. These would be regional and ratify local and national laws.
- Undertake a huge renewables building program to make Britain energy independent.
- Make Westminster and regional commons proportional.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - Project Reality
by Moggy » Sun May 29, 2022 5:43 pm

Carlos wrote:
Cuttooth wrote:
Carlos wrote:Full-on rightwing capital C conservatism is just as bad as full on leftwing socialism. Both sides need each other to reign in their worst excesses and bring things back to the center point.

If either of these ideologies were to disappear overnight do you believe that the resultant world would be equally as "bad" no matter which one were to go away?


The collapse of both Nazi Germany and the USSR would suggest so.


While there are some fascist parallels, Johnson isn't a Nazi, he's just a spoiled rich kid who stamps his feet and screams "BUT I WANT IT" when he doesn't get his own way.

And Corbyn was never a USSR style socialist/communist. Nowhere even close, he only looked far left because our politics has shifted towards the right.

We don't have those extremes (yet) in mainstream politics. The NF/BNP were never anything of note. Nor were any of the communist parties.

So what we currently have is an increasingly right wing Tory party led by a selfish posh boy. And he's up against a rather bland centrist. The danger is the selfish posh boy is putting in so many controlling laws that it will be a dream scenario if any of the really dangerous Tories ever take over. Imagine Priti Patel being given the power that's currently being handed over to the government.

On the left? The bland centrist isn't going to do anything scary or radical. And I don't see any far left people in Labour. The "worst" would be a Corbynite taking over and doing scary things like nationalising energy companies and properly funding the NHS.

So it's an unfair comparison. There are very dangerous rules, laws and precedents being put in place by a Tory party that has some very scary characters wanting to go even further. And on the left we have.......an offer of free broadband a few years ago?

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - Project Reality
by Qikz » Sun May 29, 2022 5:49 pm

Carlos wrote:Full-on rightwing capital C conservatism is just as bad as full on leftwing socialism. Both sides need each other to reign in their worst excesses and bring things back to the center point.


Can I ask why you think this is if that's ok? I'd love to hear your genuine opinion with examples of policies on both sides that you disagree with. I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm genuinely interested. Even if you'd rather PM me I'd be happy with that. I find it a huge struggle to understand this opinion when I normally hear it, but I've never had a chance to actually speak to someone who holds it and I'd love to understand why you feel this way.

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Photek
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - Project Reality
by Photek » Sun May 29, 2022 7:33 pm

twitter.com/nealerichmond/status/1530819809780301824


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Carlos
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - Project Reality
by Carlos » Sun May 29, 2022 11:37 pm

Qikz wrote:
Carlos wrote:Full-on rightwing capital C conservatism is just as bad as full on leftwing socialism. Both sides need each other to reign in their worst excesses and bring things back to the center point.


Can I ask why you think this is if that's ok? I'd love to hear your genuine opinion with examples of policies on both sides that you disagree with. I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm genuinely interested. Even if you'd rather PM me I'd be happy with that. I find it a huge struggle to understand this opinion when I normally hear it, but I've never had a chance to actually speak to someone who holds it and I'd love to understand why you feel this way.


I actually don't think there are any examples within the current parliament of these extremes, as Moggy correctly says above. Full on Capital C for me would be something like the Republicans in the USA.

As I mentioned before, I still don't believe we can solve problems in the fringes. To some my suggestions above might seem radical but it's mostly based on the Swiss model which is highly decentralised and gives a lot more power to local government including the power to change tax and wage levels. The idea of a centralised federal government is fairly new in human history compared to the old models of city-states. For most people what happens outside their city is largely inconsequential; they care about their community and the people around them. By decentralising we can return power back to people. Because this works in a western democracy I don't see it as particularly radical as far as politics goes but it would be revolutionary compared to the system we have now.

As for the place of both left and right wings within politics? In my experience this reflects the attitudes of voters. I don't think people are as easily pigeonholed as the media and politicians would like to think but have a mix of liberal views on some things and conservative views on others. For example the majority of people on here would have a conservative viewpoint on the influence the church should have on the state (ie little-to-none) but this doesn't make them Tories. I believe that a lot of people want a police force that is tough on crime but want a prison system that reforms criminals rather than overly punishes them so they reoffend or a school system that deals with disruption in class straight away but is caring enough to tackle the root causes instead of just making kids a product of the system. I'd happily discuss this in more detail if you wish.

I think a lot of voters are, perhaps of no fault of their own largely ignorant of politics and therefore easy prey for the actual enemy: the media. My disdain for the rightwing (and occasionally the leftwing) media in this country runs quite deep. I don't believe the Tories are the problem or even voters but a media machine ran by genuinely corrupt people like Murdoch and Dacre that manipulates people for its own ends.

Ultimately it is the job of the media to keep those in power in check on behalf of the people by weeding out corruption and plastering it all over the front pages. When you have a media that does it's best to cover up the corruption or spin it another way around we have a serious problem.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - Project Reality
by Tomous » Mon May 30, 2022 1:05 pm

Photek wrote:

twitter.com/nealerichmond/status/1530819809780301824





I really feel they should not be allowed to print lies like that

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - Project Reality
by Green Gecko » Mon May 30, 2022 1:22 pm

Looking forward to the inevitable banana split that insists I must have a crown on the pint glasses I etch or it's not really a pint at all.

Regarding the left/right political scale, it's a misnomer anyway, the 2 axis compass thing is much more illustrative.

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OrangeRKN
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - Project Reality
by OrangeRKN » Mon May 30, 2022 2:08 pm

Carlos wrote:Full-on rightwing capital C conservatism is just as bad as full on leftwing socialism. Both sides need each other to reign in their worst excesses and bring things back to the center point.


I think you're overly tied to a left-right model of politics that isn't very accurate or useful. You argue yourself that most people don't fit to it (with views in one area being more liberal and in another more conservative, as you put it). Politics isn't one dimensional, so centrism and the belief that it's best to stick "in the middle" isn't only wrong, it's nonsensical.

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Oblomov Boblomov
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - Project Reality
by Oblomov Boblomov » Mon May 30, 2022 2:57 pm

I always thought saying "capital C" just meant specifying the Tories and not conservativism as an ideology.

Last edited by Oblomov Boblomov on Mon May 30, 2022 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - Project Reality
by Moggy » Mon May 30, 2022 3:03 pm

Oblomov Boblomov wrote:I always thought saying "capital C" just meant specifying the Tories and not the conservativism as an ideology.


Whether Cunts or cunts. It's all the same.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - Project Reality
by Moggy » Sun Jun 05, 2022 9:52 am

twitter.com/tconnellyrte/status/1533366828440887296



:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Garth
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - Project Reality
by Garth » Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:45 am

twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1534282231400759297



Brexit means fall in crops and fewer British products in supermarkets, farmers tell MPs
Exclusive: Kent farming giant reports 8% fall in harvest due to lack of seasonal pickers – saying it’s easier to import fruit

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 92612.html

Government plan to slash compensation for severely delayed or cancelled flights

The penalty paid by airlines for severe delays or cancellations on UK flights would be reduced by tens of thousands of pounds per flight, under new Department for Transport proposals on passenger compensation.

Currently if your flight is cancelled at short notice, or delayed by more than three hours, you'll get at least £220 compensation, as well as the right to be rerouted or refunded. Except for under so-called 'extraordinary circumstances', such as bad weather.

However, the government has launched a consultation on plans that it describes as 'bolstering airline passenger protections and rights, made possible thanks to the UK's departure from the EU ', which could scrap this compensation on domestic routes.

https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/go ... gy60x9pMEh

Thread:

twitter.com/DanielLambert29/status/1532991072158220288


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Tomous
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - Project Reality
by Tomous » Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:41 am

However, the government has launched a consultation on plans that it describes as 'bolstering airline passenger protections and rights, made possible thanks to the UK's departure from the EU ', which could scrap this compensation on domestic routes.



Such a bunch of strawberry floating banana splits :lol:

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Nibble
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - Project Reality
by Nibble » Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:56 am

Pure doublespeak.


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