Buying a house (and renting)

My wife’s boss had had a quick look through, but hasn’t had much time today. He’s going to look over it more tomorrow and speak to her when she’s in the office. He has contacts with the leaseholder of the shop downstairs so he’s going to call them as well to see how they stand with it all.

The wife is also going to go to Citizens Advice on Friday to discuss it and get some advice.

We’ll then talk it over on Friday night and see where we think we stand and if the advice we’ve got sounds like we should fight.

Moggy wrote:

BID0 wrote:Have you acknowledged the latest correspondence from them? Was it via recorded delivery 2nd class? They would need proof they issue you the letter on the 25th September for them to act on the 14 day timer.

No I haven’t acknowledged anything. And they sent it normal second class, they’ve never ever sent anything recorded. I guess if my wife's boss calls them today though then that would be an acknowledgment.

Edit:

Also one thing I forgot to mention, I spoke to the lady upstairs yesterday and she hasn't received this latest letter. She's in the exact same situation as me, but they either haven't written to her or her letter has been lost in the post/delayed.

Dude, don't even acknowledge that you've received the letter(s). By Law they don't mean anything as they haven't been sent recorded. I am 100% sure that they are trying to scam you. I also think that these people don't own your property and are actually trying to scam you out of your money. How do they know that emergency repairs are needed? Have they been told by someone in the property? Have they sent you and proof of repairs or quotes?

Man, I wish I could help you more, but whatever the strawberry float you do DO NOT HAND OVER ANY MONEY TO THESE banana splits!

Moggy, having reread everything, they are continually violating the terms of the lease agreement. Whilst they continue to do this I cannot believe they are in a valid position to demand payment from you. If it went to the courts I think this case would likely be thrown out under that technicality alone, and also, I think a claim could be made for compensation for putting your family through the stress of being turfed out onto the street.

I would honestly spend a few hundred quid consulting someone familiar with property law before paying anything.

Drumstick wrote:Moggy, having reread everything, they are continually violating the terms of the lease agreement. Whilst they continue to do this I cannot believe they are in a valid position to demand payment from you. If it went to the courts I think this case would likely be thrown out under that technicality alone, and also, I think a claim could be made for compensation for putting your family through the stress of being turfed out onto the street.

I would honestly spend a few hundred quid consulting someone familiar with property law before paying anything.

Exactly. Spot on.

This type of thing would stress me out no end.

It's easy for me/us to say don't pay them, challenge it etc but I can imagine how difficult the whole thing is in reality. It really does sound like you have been treated very unfairly though, and I would retain hope you won't end up having to pay, at least not anything like the crazy amount quoted.

Agree with the advice others have given, they don't sound like they have a leg to stand on legally and I wouldn't be paying them a penny.

Appreciate how stressful this must be for you though, we've had our fair share of this kind of thing in the past and it's never fun to go through.

pjbetman wrote:

Moggy wrote:

BID0 wrote:Have you acknowledged the latest correspondence from them? Was it via recorded delivery 2nd class? They would need proof they issue you the letter on the 25th September for them to act on the 14 day timer.

No I haven’t acknowledged anything. And they sent it normal second class, they’ve never ever sent anything recorded. I guess if my wife's boss calls them today though then that would be an acknowledgment.

Edit:

Also one thing I forgot to mention, I spoke to the lady upstairs yesterday and she hasn't received this latest letter. She's in the exact same situation as me, but they either haven't written to her or her letter has been lost in the post/delayed.

Dude, don't even acknowledge that you've received the letter(s). By Law they don't mean anything as they haven't been sent recorded. I am 100% sure that they are trying to scam you. I also think that these people don't own your property and are actually trying to scam you out of your money. How do they know that emergency repairs are needed? Have they been told by someone in the property? Have they sent you and proof of repairs or quotes?

Man, I wish I could help you more, but whatever the strawberry float you do DO NOT HAND OVER ANY MONEY TO THESE banana splits!

I’ve not acknowledged receipt. I’m 100% sure they are scamming me but unfortunately I'm 100% sure they are the agents of the building owner.

From what I gather (they’ve never confirmed this to me) the works was for flooding in the shop basement. And maybe some damp proofing. I also know they put a shelter at the back of the shop.

They’ve sent me no proof of quotes or any invoices from whoever did the works. They did email some stuff to the lady upstairs, but that was years (2 or 3 years!) after the work was done.

Drumstick wrote:Moggy, having reread everything, they are continually violating the terms of the lease agreement. Whilst they continue to do this I cannot believe they are in a valid position to demand payment from you. If it went to the courts I think this case would likely be thrown out under that technicality alone, and also, I think a claim could be made for compensation for putting your family through the stress of being turfed out onto the street.

I would honestly spend a few hundred quid consulting someone familiar with property law before paying anything.

If it was anybody else in this situation that’s the advice I’d be giving.

It’s different when it’s happening to you though, the stress at the moment is unbelievable and it’s been bubbling away for over 4 years now.

Trying to look objectively, I reckon I’d win. But I’m terrified that they’ll win, it’ll cost me thousands more and I’d have no home.

I’m not doing anything until the weekend, after the wife’s boss has advised us and after the wife has spoken to Citizens Advice. If they both think we’ve got a case then I’ll try channelling my fear into anger and get a solicitor.

The whole point of section 20 is to protect leaseholders. I'm no expert but if the consultation process was never carried out correctly then I can't see a Tribunal not finding in your favour. This sounds like bullying tactics more than anything, and relying on the average person not knowing their rights. You 100% need to get some legal advice on this before paying over anything to them.

sawyerpip wrote:The whole point of section 20 is to protect leaseholders. I'm no expert but if the consultation process was never carried out correctly then I can't see a Tribunal not finding in your favour. This sounds like bullying tactics more than anything, and relying on the average person not knowing their rights. You 100% need to get some legal advice on this before paying over anything to them.

They claim the second stage was sent. I never received it and neither did the lady upstairs.

Even if they had (and they didn’t!) it wasn’t properly served as my lease states it has to be hand delivered or sent recorded delivery.

Moggy wrote:

sawyerpip wrote:The whole point of section 20 is to protect leaseholders. I'm no expert but if the consultation process was never carried out correctly then I can't see a Tribunal not finding in your favour. This sounds like bullying tactics more than anything, and relying on the average person not knowing their rights. You 100% need to get some legal advice on this before paying over anything to them.

They claim the second stage was sent. I never received it and neither did the lady upstairs.

Even if they had (and they didn’t!) it wasn’t properly served as my lease states it has to be hand delivered or sent recorded delivery.

They can't prove you received it and you can't prove you didn't receive it, but you can doubtless fall back on past correspondence where you have informed them that you haven't received it.

I totally get what you are saying about being in someone else's shoes, I really feel for you mate.

Random question about leaseholds which (as may become obvious) I know nothing about: why would your mortgage provider care if your landlord got in contact with them saying they haven't been paid? As long as the mortgage is getting paid, who cares.

Also, the place I work at (utility company) once had its own in house debt team. Our customers that's were in debt were told that they were an external company etc very similar to what you have been told, it's all empty threats.

I can't tell you to do/not to do something but if you hand them over money and it turns out they are in the wrong you'll have a hell of a time trying to get your money back, it'll be even worse when you're chasing multiple company holdings and no doubt multiple Ltd companies with different directors etc.

Seem legal advice would be the best option, find a law firm who specialise in this and find out your options and best way forward.

With regards to your credit file if you fight them and they are in the wrong they will have to amend/fix your credit file. Also you can put in your own notice of correction and ask all credit reference companies (call credit etc) to add it to your file and then run this through underwriters when you're looking for a new mortgage if needs be.

This all sounds very stressful and draining which has gotten you to the point where you feel you'll have to hand over the money which is no doubt what they wanted.

I had an email from the lady upstairs last night (she's away until the 14th). She confirmed that she received an invoice last week that referred to charges from March 2018. She rang them and said they acted surprised that she didn't receive the invoice they sent in March.

She hasn't received the S146 threatening letter that I did and they didn't mention anything like that to her on the phone.

She "owes" roughly the same amount as me. Her issues with them have been going on for exactly the same time as me. Why treat us differently?

Arseholes.

My wife is going through it all with her boss today, hopefully he has some decent advice to give. He also has some contacts with the company that own the shops leasehold, so he might be able to get them onside as well.

I am still feeling deflated and defeated, but my anger at the unfairness is starting to rise again.

Drumstick wrote:

Moggy wrote:

sawyerpip wrote:The whole point of section 20 is to protect leaseholders. I'm no expert but if the consultation process was never carried out correctly then I can't see a Tribunal not finding in your favour. This sounds like bullying tactics more than anything, and relying on the average person not knowing their rights. You 100% need to get some legal advice on this before paying over anything to them.

They claim the second stage was sent. I never received it and neither did the lady upstairs.

Even if they had (and they didn’t!) it wasn’t properly served as my lease states it has to be hand delivered or sent recorded delivery.

They can't prove you received it and you can't prove you didn't receive it, but you can doubtless fall back on past correspondence where you have informed them that you haven't received it.

I totally get what you are saying about being in someone else's shoes, I really feel for you mate.

Random question about leaseholds which (as may become obvious) I know nothing about: why would your mortgage provider care if your landlord got in contact with them saying they haven't been paid? As long as the mortgage is getting paid, who cares.

Also, the place I work at (utility company) once had its own in house debt team. Our customers that's were in debt were told that they were an external company etc very similar to what you have been told, it's all empty threats.

Yeh they can't do anything, it's like getting a parking ticket by anyone other than a council. Or the TV Licence people. It's not enforceable.

They'd have to take it to a court to pursue it further and no court will take this on as they don't have proof of issuing you with the documents they are meant to issue you. Even for arguments sake it does go this far, you'll only be required to pay what the original repairs were (as they have no proof of sending you the original invoice(s) to add interest on to) and you'll probably also be able to get that original amount payable over a reasonable period of time (like over 2, 3, 5 years etc)

If you're moving imminently too that's even less of a reason to pay, that money will be better used as a deposit or DIY work.

Moggy wrote:

pjbetman wrote:

Moggy wrote:

BID0 wrote:Have you acknowledged the latest correspondence from them? Was it via recorded delivery 2nd class? They would need proof they issue you the letter on the 25th September for them to act on the 14 day timer.

No I haven’t acknowledged anything. And they sent it normal second class, they’ve never ever sent anything recorded. I guess if my wife's boss calls them today though then that would be an acknowledgment.

Edit:

Also one thing I forgot to mention, I spoke to the lady upstairs yesterday and she hasn't received this latest letter. She's in the exact same situation as me, but they either haven't written to her or her letter has been lost in the post/delayed.

Dude, don't even acknowledge that you've received the letter(s). By Law they don't mean anything as they haven't been sent recorded. I am 100% sure that they are trying to scam you. I also think that these people don't own your property and are actually trying to scam you out of your money. How do they know that emergency repairs are needed? Have they been told by someone in the property? Have they sent you and proof of repairs or quotes?

Man, I wish I could help you more, but whatever the strawberry float you do DO NOT HAND OVER ANY MONEY TO THESE banana splits!

I’ve not acknowledged receipt. I’m 100% sure they are scamming me but unfortunately I'm 100% sure they are the agents of the building owner.

From what I gather (they’ve never confirmed this to me) the works was for flooding in the shop basement. And maybe some damp proofing. I also know they put a shelter at the back of the shop.

They’ve sent me no proof of quotes or any invoices from whoever did the works. They did email some stuff to the lady upstairs, but that was years (2 or 3 years!) after the work was done.

If you get any debt collector letters, or debt "officers" at the door, you need to treat them like you would a TV Licence person. You are not the person that those letters have been addressed to. Any items are not your property... car, door mat, plant pots etc (they are your wife's, daughter's etc) and so they can not take them as you don't own them. Ask them to "leave the property" and you "withdraw your right for them to revisit".

Moggy wrote:I had an email from the lady upstairs last night (she's away until the 14th). She confirmed that she received an invoice last week that referred to charges from March 2018. She rang them and said they acted surprised that she didn't receive the invoice they sent in March.

She hasn't received the S146 threatening letter that I did and they didn't mention anything like that to her on the phone.

She "owes" roughly the same amount as me. Her issues with them have been going on for exactly the same time as me. Why treat us differently?

Arseholes.

My wife is going through it all with her boss today, hopefully he has some decent advice to give. He also has some contacts with the company that own the shops leasehold, so he might be able to get them onside as well.

I am still feeling deflated and defeated, but my anger at the unfairness is starting to rise again.

One reason they may be treating her differently is that she has been more direct in her confrontation of them - speaking to them on the phone rather than via mail. They may think that as you have been taking that approach that you are more likely to roll over as they see it as a sign that you are less prepared to fight them?

Jenuall wrote:

Moggy wrote:I had an email from the lady upstairs last night (she's away until the 14th). She confirmed that she received an invoice last week that referred to charges from March 2018. She rang them and said they acted surprised that she didn't receive the invoice they sent in March.

She hasn't received the S146 threatening letter that I did and they didn't mention anything like that to her on the phone.

She "owes" roughly the same amount as me. Her issues with them have been going on for exactly the same time as me. Why treat us differently?

Arseholes.

My wife is going through it all with her boss today, hopefully he has some decent advice to give. He also has some contacts with the company that own the shops leasehold, so he might be able to get them onside as well.

I am still feeling deflated and defeated, but my anger at the unfairness is starting to rise again.

One reason they may be treating her differently is that she has been more direct in her confrontation of them - speaking to them on the phone rather than via mail. They may think that as you have been taking that approach that you are more likely to roll over as they see it as a sign that you are less prepared to fight them?

Maybe. I took the approach of writing to them so that I would have actual evidence that I had queried things. The trouble with a phone call is that they tell you one thing and then do another. Either way, it really shouldn’t make any difference when the amounts and time are virtually identical, surely this would be another tick in my favour, it’s discriminatory and certainly isn’t treating customers fairly.

BID0 I understand what you are saying and it would probably be the same advice I would be posting on here if somebody else had this issue. The fear of losing against them is pretty powerful though and is completely clouding my judgement. My brain is screaming “just pay them and get rid of them!” rather than going into fight mode. Which is obviously what these cowboys are banking on.

Can't wait for AYAL?, the most emotionally driven variant yet.

Moggy wrote:

Jenuall wrote:

Moggy wrote:I had an email from the lady upstairs last night (she's away until the 14th). She confirmed that she received an invoice last week that referred to charges from March 2018. She rang them and said they acted surprised that she didn't receive the invoice they sent in March.

She hasn't received the S146 threatening letter that I did and they didn't mention anything like that to her on the phone.

She "owes" roughly the same amount as me. Her issues with them have been going on for exactly the same time as me. Why treat us differently?

Arseholes.

My wife is going through it all with her boss today, hopefully he has some decent advice to give. He also has some contacts with the company that own the shops leasehold, so he might be able to get them onside as well.

I am still feeling deflated and defeated, but my anger at the unfairness is starting to rise again.

One reason they may be treating her differently is that she has been more direct in her confrontation of them - speaking to them on the phone rather than via mail. They may think that as you have been taking that approach that you are more likely to roll over as they see it as a sign that you are less prepared to fight them?

Maybe. I took the approach of writing to them so that I would have actual evidence that I had queried things. The trouble with a phone call is that they tell you one thing and then do another. Either way, it really shouldn’t make any difference when the amounts and time are virtually identical, surely this would be another tick in my favour, it’s discriminatory and certainly isn’t treating customers fairly.

Oh I agree that it's wrong, if both yourself and the lady upstairs are in the same circumstances then you should be treated equally. I just suspect that the difference in communication approach might be the reason they are treating you differently as they think they have some advantage over you that way.

I prefer written communication in these cases as well, a paper trail is hard to ignore, particularly if you have records of things being sent and received.

Hope you get some good feedback from your wife's boss, someone you guys know in real life telling you that it's a cause worth fighting is no doubt going to offer more reassurance than us lot - I totally get that the fear of losing to these people is a hard barrier to push past even with all the encouragement in the world!

Bido that is a load of nonsense. If their paperwork is in place and they issue a high court writ Moggy is not in a good place.

My understanding of leasehold is that they own the building, you own a flat in that building. If this is the case, why does an owner of a flat on the first or second floor have to pay for repairs to the basement of a building they don't own? That seems mental.

Seems even more mental that they can just send an invoice to all the occupiers saying 'yo, we fixed some gooseberry fool, pay us £10k'.