Buying a house (and renting)

Igor wrote:My understanding of leasehold is that they own the building, you own a flat in that building. If this is the case, why does an owner of a flat on the first or second floor have to pay for repairs to the basement of a building they don't own? That seems mental.

Seems even more mental that they can just send an invoice to all the occupiers saying 'yo, we fixed some gooseberry fool, pay us £10k'.

Their argument is that flooding in the basement would be a structural issue for the whole building, just like if the roof collapsed.

I accept that argument, my issues are around their breaches of the lease, their inability to follow all three stages of the Section 20 process and their refusal to give me a breakdown of the service charges (some of which are well over £1000)

The cost for building works they are trying to get out of me is about £4900. The other £5000 I have refused to pay are for several service charges that they have never explained.

So I'm looking around at surveyors to get a proper valuation done on my house as it's a requirement of paying off the Help to Buy loan, and I emailed one company this morning just asking for a quote on how much and when they might have availability.

Their reply has asked me for additional details which is fine, but one of the details they're asking for is "Estimated value of the property"

I don't strawberry floating know the value of the property, I'm literally trying to hire you to tell me that.

Dual wrote:Bido that is a load of nonsense. If their paperwork is in place and they issue a high court writ Moggy is not in a good place.

Dual is right, if they manage to obtain a high court writ in the space of time you aren't cooperating or challenging them, you will have to leave at the moment they appear and there is no argument whatsoever. If you don't leave, the police will physically remove you.

So you need to act, as shitty as it is.

I'm with others in that it seems to be (a) a scam (b) a load of gooseberry fool that you can and should fight.

The only advice I can offer are the observations:

You should be able to request proof of the repairs that were carried out, as well as proof of some sort of survey or conveyancing that states the works NEEDED to be carried out, and weren't just carried out because of made up reasons, or because the landlord wanted to do it (that would need a consultation as you have mentioned in the section something process). If there is no proof, and they refuse to provide it, I don't see why you should pay them anything at this time.

Secondly, as far as I am aware, if the party demanding funds is also adding "interest" or "service charges", they are not legally enforceable unless you have signed a contract stating that they are due under certain conditions. A creditor cannot charge interest (other than statutory interest, which is very low) unless they are regulated by the FSC. If they are not regulated by the FSC, then they cannot charge those random sums added every x days or whatever it is. They are 100% bullshit.

So at the very least, you shouldn't be paying all of what they are asking. Perhaps there is some amount that is due, but at the moment, based on what you have said, they can't demand all of this money while they have clearly strawberry floated up various part of the due process. You should pursue the right processes yourself, while getting your ducks in a row, so you can get out from under it, regardless of what you pay in the end. You should do some cashflow forecasting, and look at other accommodation, so that you have a plan to negotiate the situation.

Yes you should get legal advice. They are not acting legally, and so if you ensure you are, you are unlikely to be worse off. As they are more aggressive than you, unfortunately, and they are using multiple entities to pressure you into doing what they want. The emotional toll of handling that entirely yourself, if you have funds to hands, is not worth those funds, in my opinion. It's a shitty situation to be in, but it might get shittier if you don't work with the situation to your advantage, and become a victim. Don't let that happen. It may cost you, but negotiating the situation without the proper information, could hurt you more than financially. You will probably pay/lose some money, but you will be able to move past it.

Lagamorph wrote:So I'm looking around at surveyors to get a proper valuation done on my house as it's a requirement of paying off the Help to Buy loan, and I emailed one company this morning just asking for a quote on how much and when they might have availability.

Their reply has asked me for additional details which is fine, but one of the details they're asking for is "Estimated value of the property"

I don't strawberry floating know the value of the property, I'm literally trying to hire you to tell me that.

Just look up your street for previous sales on Zoopla and average that gooseberry fool if they want some general idea. You're not an expert so you don't need to provide expert information.

Green Gecko wrote:

Dual wrote:Bido that is a load of nonsense. If their paperwork is in place and they issue a high court writ Moggy is not in a good place.

Dual is right, if they manage to obtain a high court writ in the space of time you aren't cooperating or challenging them, you will have to leave at the moment they appear and there is no argument whatsoever. If you don't leave, the police will physically remove you.

So you need to act, as shitty as it is.

I'm with others in that it seems to be (a) a scam (b) a load of gooseberry fool that you can and should fight.

The only advice I can offer are the observations:

You should be able to request proof of the repairs that were carried out, as well as proof of some sort of survey or conveyancing that states the works NEEDED to be carried out, and weren't just carried out because of made up reasons, or because the landlord wanted to do it (that would need a consultation as you have mentioned in the section something process). If there is no proof, and they refuse to provide it, I don't see why you should pay them anything at this time.

Secondly, as far as I am aware, if the party demanding funds is also adding "interest" or "service charges", they are not legally enforceable unless you have signed a contract stating that they are due under certain conditions. A creditor cannot charge interest (other than statutory interest, which is very low) unless they are regulated by the FSC. If they are not regulated by the FSC, then they cannot charge those random sums added every x days or whatever it is. They are 100% bullshit.

So at the very least, you shouldn't be paying all of what they are asking. Perhaps there is some amount that is due, but at the moment, based on what you have said, they can't demand all of this money while they have clearly strawberry floated up various part of the due process. You should pursue the right processes yourself, while getting your ducks in a row, so you can get out from under it, regardless of what you pay in the end. You should do some cashflow forecasting, and look at other accommodation, so that you have a plan to negotiate the situation.

Yes you should get legal advice. They are not acting legally, and so if you ensure you are, you are unlikely to be worse off. As they are more aggressive than you, unfortunately, and they are using multiple entities to pressure you into doing what they want. The emotional toll of handling that entirely yourself, if you have funds to hands, is not worth those funds, in my opinion. It's a shitty situation to be in, but it might get shittier if you don't work with the situation to your advantage, and become a victim. Don't let that happen. It may cost you, but negotiating the situation without the proper information, could hurt you more than financially. You will probably pay/lose some money, but you will be able to move past it.

Thanks mate. We are getting the Citizens Advice Bureau’s advice tomorrow and we’ll see what they say we should do or if they think we have a case.

If they aren’t much help, then I might try ringing the property agency on Monday and set out exactly my problems with them and make clear that their 14 days (sent second class!) deadline is not reasonable and that I need extra time to look at legal options. I can then either get some breathing space or see just how far these banana splits want to push things.

The notice period minus (-) 2nd class unrecorded mail argument to get the actual notice given has held water with me and local and national government, so it should work for a private matter between people or corporations.

Green Gecko wrote:The notice period minus (-) 2nd class unrecorded mail argument to get the actual notice given has held water with me and local and national government, so it should work for a private matter between people or corporations.

Cheers, I think it is definitely worth a go to try and get some breathing space.

One thing I was thinking is that I don't trust these bastards at all. They have previously said one thing and then denied it ever happened. I don't have the equipment needed to record an entire phone call, but I could use my mobile phone to record my voice when I am on a landline. Is that legal? Looking online it looks like it is legal to record a phone call for your own use, or if you make the other party aware (I think these banana splits would refuse), but that seems to relate to recording both sides of a conversation. If I am just recording my voice, could that be used as evidence?

How are they going to obtain a high court writ without proof of sending documentation, proof moggy has been un co-operative and ignoring the correspondence, or any information on the important works carried out.

You need to let them know you're recording at the beginning of the call of you want to use the recording in a legal capacity.

That's not a growth wrote:You need to let them know you're recording at the beginning of the call of you want to use the recording in a legal capacity.

Even if it is only my voice that is being recorded?

BID0 wrote:

Drumstick wrote:

Moggy wrote:

sawyerpip wrote:The whole point of section 20 is to protect leaseholders. I'm no expert but if the consultation process was never carried out correctly then I can't see a Tribunal not finding in your favour. This sounds like bullying tactics more than anything, and relying on the average person not knowing their rights. You 100% need to get some legal advice on this before paying over anything to them.

They claim the second stage was sent. I never received it and neither did the lady upstairs.

Even if they had (and they didn’t!) it wasn’t properly served as my lease states it has to be hand delivered or sent recorded delivery.

They can't prove you received it and you can't prove you didn't receive it, but you can doubtless fall back on past correspondence where you have informed them that you haven't received it.

I totally get what you are saying about being in someone else's shoes, I really feel for you mate.

Random question about leaseholds which (as may become obvious) I know nothing about: why would your mortgage provider care if your landlord got in contact with them saying they haven't been paid? As long as the mortgage is getting paid, who cares.

Also, the place I work at (utility company) once had its own in house debt team. Our customers that's were in debt were told that they were an external company etc very similar to what you have been told, it's all empty threats.

Yeh they can't do anything, it's like getting a parking ticket by anyone other than a council. Or the TV Licence people. It's not enforceable.

They'd have to take it to a court to pursue it further and no court will take this on as they don't have proof of issuing you with the documents they are meant to issue you. Even for arguments sake it does go this far, you'll only be required to pay what the original repairs were (as they have no proof of sending you the original invoice(s) to add interest on to) and you'll probably also be able to get that original amount payable over a reasonable period of time (like over 2, 3, 5 years etc)

If you're moving imminently too that's even less of a reason to pay, that money will be better used as a deposit or DIY work.

Moggy wrote:

pjbetman wrote:

Moggy wrote:

BID0 wrote:Have you acknowledged the latest correspondence from them? Was it via recorded delivery 2nd class? They would need proof they issue you the letter on the 25th September for them to act on the 14 day timer.

No I haven’t acknowledged anything. And they sent it normal second class, they’ve never ever sent anything recorded. I guess if my wife's boss calls them today though then that would be an acknowledgment.

Edit:

Also one thing I forgot to mention, I spoke to the lady upstairs yesterday and she hasn't received this latest letter. She's in the exact same situation as me, but they either haven't written to her or her letter has been lost in the post/delayed.

Dude, don't even acknowledge that you've received the letter(s). By Law they don't mean anything as they haven't been sent recorded. I am 100% sure that they are trying to scam you. I also think that these people don't own your property and are actually trying to scam you out of your money. How do they know that emergency repairs are needed? Have they been told by someone in the property? Have they sent you and proof of repairs or quotes?

Man, I wish I could help you more, but whatever the strawberry float you do DO NOT HAND OVER ANY MONEY TO THESE banana splits!

I’ve not acknowledged receipt. I’m 100% sure they are scamming me but unfortunately I'm 100% sure they are the agents of the building owner.

From what I gather (they’ve never confirmed this to me) the works was for flooding in the shop basement. And maybe some damp proofing. I also know they put a shelter at the back of the shop.

They’ve sent me no proof of quotes or any invoices from whoever did the works. They did email some stuff to the lady upstairs, but that was years (2 or 3 years!) after the work was done.

If you get any debt collector letters, or debt "officers" at the door, you need to treat them like you would a TV Licence person. You are not the person that those letters have been addressed to. Any items are not your property... car, door mat, plant pots etc (they are your wife's, daughter's etc) and so they can not take them as you don't own them. Ask them to "leave the property" and you "withdraw your right for them to revisit".

If you do get debt collectors coming round...this is the best news you could have really, as the debt has been sold to another party - meaning that you have no legal obligation to pay the original 'debt'. Don't pay a single penny of that debt, as they will now be in a contract with you for the rest. Don't reply to any of their letters, don't say anything about your debt with the original party. And don't let them in your house FFS!

Moggy wrote:

That's not a growth wrote:You need to let them know you're recording at the beginning of the call of you want to use the recording in a legal capacity.

Even if it is only my voice that is being recorded?

I don't think one side of the conversation would be any use as evidence, they can just claim there's no proof it was actually a phone call and not you just talking into a recorder.

Can you not call them on your mobile and just download a free call recording app? That's what I did when I had a complaint with Virgin Media a few years ago so that I had evidence of everything they promised me.

Lagamorph wrote:

Moggy wrote:

That's not a growth wrote:You need to let them know you're recording at the beginning of the call of you want to use the recording in a legal capacity.

Even if it is only my voice that is being recorded?

I don't think one side of the conversation would be any use as evidence, they can just claim there's no proof it was actually a phone call and not you just talking into a recorder.

True, although I was thinking that a recording on a phone would confirm the date/time of the call and that would verify against the call log which would show their number as well as the date/time/length of call.

Dual wrote:Bido that is a load of nonsense. If their paperwork is in place and they issue a high court writ Moggy is not in a good place.

No. The paperwork isn't in place, clearly. What Bido said is correct.

Lagamorph wrote:Can you not call them on your mobile and just download a free call recording app? That's what I did when I had a complaint with Virgin Media a few years ago so that I had evidence of everything they promised me.

Which one did you use?

Moggy wrote:

Lagamorph wrote:Can you not call them on your mobile and just download a free call recording app? That's what I did when I had a complaint with Virgin Media a few years ago so that I had evidence of everything they promised me.

Which one did you use?

It was "Auto Call Recorder" from the Google Play store.

Alternatively, if you need to use a landline, you could just put it on speakerphone and record using your phone/PC/laptop, though that would pick up background noise and might not be the best quality.

Green Gecko wrote:

Dual wrote:Bido that is a load of nonsense. If their paperwork is in place and they issue a high court writ Moggy is not in a good place.

Dual is right, if they manage to obtain a high court writ in the space of time you aren't cooperating or challenging them, you will have to leave at the moment they appear and there is no argument whatsoever. If you don't leave, the police will physically remove you.

So you need to act, as shitty as it is.

I'm with others in that it seems to be (a) a scam (b) a load of gooseberry fool that you can and should fight.

The only advice I can offer are the observations:

You should be able to request proof of the repairs that were carried out, as well as proof of some sort of survey or conveyancing that states the works NEEDED to be carried out, and weren't just carried out because of made up reasons, or because the landlord wanted to do it (that would need a consultation as you have mentioned in the section something process). If there is no proof, and they refuse to provide it, I don't see why you should pay them anything at this time.

Secondly, as far as I am aware, if the party demanding funds is also adding "interest" or "service charges", they are not legally enforceable unless you have signed a contract stating that they are due under certain conditions. A creditor cannot charge interest (other than statutory interest, which is very low) unless they are regulated by the FSC. If they are not regulated by the FSC, then they cannot charge those random sums added every x days or whatever it is. They are 100% bullshit.

So at the very least, you shouldn't be paying all of what they are asking. Perhaps there is some amount that is due, but at the moment, based on what you have said, they can't demand all of this money while they have clearly strawberry floated up various part of the due process. You should pursue the right processes yourself, while getting your ducks in a row, so you can get out from under it, regardless of what you pay in the end. You should do some cashflow forecasting, and look at other accommodation, so that you have a plan to negotiate the situation.

Yes you should get legal advice. They are not acting legally, and so if you ensure you are, you are unlikely to be worse off. As they are more aggressive than you, unfortunately, and they are using multiple entities to pressure you into doing what they want. The emotional toll of handling that entirely yourself, if you have funds to hands, is not worth those funds, in my opinion. It's a shitty situation to be in, but it might get shittier if you don't work with the situation to your advantage, and become a victim. Don't let that happen. It may cost you, but negotiating the situation without the proper information, could hurt you more than financially. You will probably pay/lose some money, but you will be able to move past it.

Come on dude, that is utter bollocks! Jeez, so the police are getting involved in civil cases now? Stop scaremongering Moggy.

pjbetman wrote:

Green Gecko wrote:

Dual wrote:Bido that is a load of nonsense. If their paperwork is in place and they issue a high court writ Moggy is not in a good place.

Dual is right, if they manage to obtain a high court writ in the space of time you aren't cooperating or challenging them, you will have to leave at the moment they appear and there is no argument whatsoever. If you don't leave, the police will physically remove you.

So you need to act, as shitty as it is.

I'm with others in that it seems to be (a) a scam (b) a load of gooseberry fool that you can and should fight.

The only advice I can offer are the observations:

You should be able to request proof of the repairs that were carried out, as well as proof of some sort of survey or conveyancing that states the works NEEDED to be carried out, and weren't just carried out because of made up reasons, or because the landlord wanted to do it (that would need a consultation as you have mentioned in the section something process). If there is no proof, and they refuse to provide it, I don't see why you should pay them anything at this time.

Secondly, as far as I am aware, if the party demanding funds is also adding "interest" or "service charges", they are not legally enforceable unless you have signed a contract stating that they are due under certain conditions. A creditor cannot charge interest (other than statutory interest, which is very low) unless they are regulated by the FSC. If they are not regulated by the FSC, then they cannot charge those random sums added every x days or whatever it is. They are 100% bullshit.

So at the very least, you shouldn't be paying all of what they are asking. Perhaps there is some amount that is due, but at the moment, based on what you have said, they can't demand all of this money while they have clearly strawberry floated up various part of the due process. You should pursue the right processes yourself, while getting your ducks in a row, so you can get out from under it, regardless of what you pay in the end. You should do some cashflow forecasting, and look at other accommodation, so that you have a plan to negotiate the situation.

Yes you should get legal advice. They are not acting legally, and so if you ensure you are, you are unlikely to be worse off. As they are more aggressive than you, unfortunately, and they are using multiple entities to pressure you into doing what they want. The emotional toll of handling that entirely yourself, if you have funds to hands, is not worth those funds, in my opinion. It's a shitty situation to be in, but it might get shittier if you don't work with the situation to your advantage, and become a victim. Don't let that happen. It may cost you, but negotiating the situation without the proper information, could hurt you more than financially. You will probably pay/lose some money, but you will be able to move past it.

Come on dude, that is utter bollocks! Jeez, so the police are getting involved in civil cases now? Stop scaremongering Moggy.

Obstructing a High Court enforcement of a High Court writ is a criminal offence that can result in arrest.

Moggy wrote:

Lagamorph wrote:

Moggy wrote:

That's not a growth wrote:You need to let them know you're recording at the beginning of the call of you want to use the recording in a legal capacity.

Even if it is only my voice that is being recorded?

I don't think one side of the conversation would be any use as evidence, they can just claim there's no proof it was actually a phone call and not you just talking into a recorder.

True, although I was thinking that a recording on a phone would confirm the date/time of the call and that would verify against the call log which would show their number as well as the date/time/length of call.

You'd treat it like a conference call and name the parties present, ask them to confirm their names. Provide the time and date on the recording and also state that they are being recorded. It's not 100% proof (as it could be anyone on the other line) but in a civil court you only need to have proof 'on the balance of probabilities'.

I'm pretty sure you have the right to record the conversation - even if they refuse to talk, that would mean that they aren't cooperating.

Have they sent any documents to you by recorded delivery or email? Have they sent any to your co-leasees?

Lagamorph wrote:

pjbetman wrote:

Green Gecko wrote:

Dual wrote:Bido that is a load of nonsense. If their paperwork is in place and they issue a high court writ Moggy is not in a good place.

Dual is right, if they manage to obtain a high court writ in the space of time you aren't cooperating or challenging them, you will have to leave at the moment they appear and there is no argument whatsoever. If you don't leave, the police will physically remove you.

So you need to act, as shitty as it is.

I'm with others in that it seems to be (a) a scam (b) a load of gooseberry fool that you can and should fight.

The only advice I can offer are the observations:

You should be able to request proof of the repairs that were carried out, as well as proof of some sort of survey or conveyancing that states the works NEEDED to be carried out, and weren't just carried out because of made up reasons, or because the landlord wanted to do it (that would need a consultation as you have mentioned in the section something process). If there is no proof, and they refuse to provide it, I don't see why you should pay them anything at this time.

Secondly, as far as I am aware, if the party demanding funds is also adding "interest" or "service charges", they are not legally enforceable unless you have signed a contract stating that they are due under certain conditions. A creditor cannot charge interest (other than statutory interest, which is very low) unless they are regulated by the FSC. If they are not regulated by the FSC, then they cannot charge those random sums added every x days or whatever it is. They are 100% bullshit.

So at the very least, you shouldn't be paying all of what they are asking. Perhaps there is some amount that is due, but at the moment, based on what you have said, they can't demand all of this money while they have clearly strawberry floated up various part of the due process. You should pursue the right processes yourself, while getting your ducks in a row, so you can get out from under it, regardless of what you pay in the end. You should do some cashflow forecasting, and look at other accommodation, so that you have a plan to negotiate the situation.

Yes you should get legal advice. They are not acting legally, and so if you ensure you are, you are unlikely to be worse off. As they are more aggressive than you, unfortunately, and they are using multiple entities to pressure you into doing what they want. The emotional toll of handling that entirely yourself, if you have funds to hands, is not worth those funds, in my opinion. It's a shitty situation to be in, but it might get shittier if you don't work with the situation to your advantage, and become a victim. Don't let that happen. It may cost you, but negotiating the situation without the proper information, could hurt you more than financially. You will probably pay/lose some money, but you will be able to move past it.

Come on dude, that is utter bollocks! Jeez, so the police are getting involved in civil cases now? Stop scaremongering Moggy.

Obstructing a High Court enforcement of a High Court writ is a criminal offence that can result in arrest.

Now that's a different matter. Obstructing a Bailiff would need to be done forcibly...that's where the police come in. The bailiffs have unrestricted access to your property, you aren't allowed to stop them physically.

Anyway, how the hell are they going to get a HC writ when they haven't even followed the Section 20 procedures (and several others too)?