Ched Evans - should he play football again?

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Nathanbrains
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PostRe: Ched Evans, rapist - should he play football again?
by Nathanbrains » Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:00 am

[iup=3652058]Finish.Last[/iup] wrote:I'm a bit late to reply to the earlier point but having worked in schools for the past seventeen years and as the head teacher of a very large school I can say with some confidence that for many young boys footballers are definitely role models.


As I said before though, I would argue they are role models for what they do on the pitch, not off of it.

And even if it were true that kids made role models out of every aspect of footballers, does anyone really think they'll think, "oh well Ched Evans raped a girl so it's ok for me to behave like that"? I know children are impressionable but from personal experience of myself and friends I just don't see that as the case.

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PostRe: Ched Evans, rapist - should he play football again?
by Oblomov Boblomov » Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:04 am

[iup=3652103]Nathanbrains[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3652058]Finish.Last[/iup] wrote:I'm a bit late to reply to the earlier point but having worked in schools for the past seventeen years and as the head teacher of a very large school I can say with some confidence that for many young boys footballers are definitely role models.


As I said before though, I would argue they are role models for what they do on the pitch, not off of it.

And even if it were true that kids made role models out of every aspect of footballers, does anyone really think they'll think, "oh well Ched Evans raped a girl so it's ok for me to behave like that"? I know children are impressionable but from personal experience of myself and friends I just don't see that as the case.


Probably not, but they may think it's okay to go out drinking and have sex with girls who have also been drinking. Unless they've really got their wits about them it could turn out that the girl wakes up with alcohol-induced memory loss, meaning the boy is a rapist.

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PostRe: Ched Evans, rapist - should he play football again?
by Eighthours » Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:22 am

I find it interesting how Oldham said that disgusting threats made against them was one of the main reasons for them not to sign Evans. Yet the police have specifically said that no complaints were made by Oldham, and that in conversations with the club that week, only a couple of 'low level' insults had been mentioned.

So Oldham bullshitted for sympathy, basically.

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PostRe: Ched Evans, rapist - should he play football again?
by Nathanbrains » Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:23 am

[iup=3652108]Oblomov Boblomov[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3652103]Nathanbrains[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3652058]Finish.Last[/iup] wrote:I'm a bit late to reply to the earlier point but having worked in schools for the past seventeen years and as the head teacher of a very large school I can say with some confidence that for many young boys footballers are definitely role models.


As I said before though, I would argue they are role models for what they do on the pitch, not off of it.

And even if it were true that kids made role models out of every aspect of footballers, does anyone really think they'll think, "oh well Ched Evans raped a girl so it's ok for me to behave like that"? I know children are impressionable but from personal experience of myself and friends I just don't see that as the case.


Probably not, but they may think it's okay to go out drinking and have sex with girls who have also been drinking.

It is? How many thousands of people do that every weekend, footballer or not?

[iup=3652108]Oblomov Boblomov[/iup] wrote:Unless they've really got their wits about them it could turn out that the girl wakes up with alcohol-induced memory loss, meaning the boy is a rapist.

Except that isn't what happened in the Ched Evans case which is why McDonald wasn't a rapist.

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PostRe: Ched Evans, rapist - should he play football again?
by Oblomov Boblomov » Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:24 am

[iup=3652116]Nathanbrains[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3652108]Oblomov Boblomov[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3652103]Nathanbrains[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3652058]Finish.Last[/iup] wrote:I'm a bit late to reply to the earlier point but having worked in schools for the past seventeen years and as the head teacher of a very large school I can say with some confidence that for many young boys footballers are definitely role models.


As I said before though, I would argue they are role models for what they do on the pitch, not off of it.

And even if it were true that kids made role models out of every aspect of footballers, does anyone really think they'll think, "oh well Ched Evans raped a girl so it's ok for me to behave like that"? I know children are impressionable but from personal experience of myself and friends I just don't see that as the case.


Probably not, but they may think it's okay to go out drinking and have sex with girls who have also been drinking.

It is? How many thousands of people do that every weekend, footballer or not?

[iup=3652108]Oblomov Boblomov[/iup] wrote:Unless they've really got their wits about them it could turn out that the girl wakes up with alcohol-induced memory loss, meaning the boy is a rapist.

Except that isn't what happened in the Ched Evans case which is why McDonald wasn't a rapist.


I may have got this wrong but from information provided in the thread I was under the impression it is rape if the girl can't remember giving consent?

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PostRe: Ched Evans, rapist - should he play football again?
by Nathanbrains » Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:30 am

[iup=3652118]Oblomov Boblomov[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3652116]Nathanbrains[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3652108]Oblomov Boblomov[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3652103]Nathanbrains[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3652058]Finish.Last[/iup] wrote:I'm a bit late to reply to the earlier point but having worked in schools for the past seventeen years and as the head teacher of a very large school I can say with some confidence that for many young boys footballers are definitely role models.


As I said before though, I would argue they are role models for what they do on the pitch, not off of it.

And even if it were true that kids made role models out of every aspect of footballers, does anyone really think they'll think, "oh well Ched Evans raped a girl so it's ok for me to behave like that"? I know children are impressionable but from personal experience of myself and friends I just don't see that as the case.


Probably not, but they may think it's okay to go out drinking and have sex with girls who have also been drinking.

It is? How many thousands of people do that every weekend, footballer or not?

[iup=3652108]Oblomov Boblomov[/iup] wrote:Unless they've really got their wits about them it could turn out that the girl wakes up with alcohol-induced memory loss, meaning the boy is a rapist.

Except that isn't what happened in the Ched Evans case which is why McDonald wasn't a rapist.


I may have got this wrong but from information provided in the thread I was under the impression it is rape if the girl can't remember giving consent?


I believe if a girl is so drunk that she can't remember giving consent then in the eyes of the law it would be rape, yes. Again though, this isn't quite what happens with Evans. If he wasn't involved and the girl had simply accused McDonald of rape on the grounds that she didn't remember giving consent then I suspect he would not have been convicted.

To question whether as a society we should be getting drunks and having sex is one thing, but to put the blame on footballers as role models for this seems wrong to me.

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PostRe: Ched Evans, rapist - should he play football again?
by Oblomov Boblomov » Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:43 am

Seeing footballers go out and have drunken sex with women adds (in my opinion) to the already widely perceived 'cool' image of drunken promiscuousness. Men should not confidently trust themselves to accurately judge the drunkenness of a girl and whether or not she will be able to recall consenting to the sex. It's surely not worth the risk of waking up to discover you're a rapist.

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PostRe: Ched Evans, rapist - should he play football again?
by Nathanbrains » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:00 pm

[iup=3652127]Oblomov Boblomov[/iup] wrote:Seeing footballers go out and have drunken sex with women adds (in my opinion) to the already widely perceived 'cool' image of drunken promiscuousness.

I wouldn't disagree with that. It's not something that's exclusive to footballers though, it's more indicative of the whole celebrity/tabloid press culture we currently live in.

[iup=3652127]Oblomov Boblomov[/iup] wrote:Men should not confidently trust themselves to accurately judge the drunkenness of a girl and whether or not she will be able to recall consenting to the sex. It's surely not worth the risk of waking up to discover you're a rapist.

I think this is where the whole law around consent is a bit of a mess. Should women not take responsibility for the alcohol they consume? Should men never have sex after having a few drinks? Where is the cut off point?

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PostRe: Ched Evans, rapist - should he play football again?
by That » Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:50 pm

You just need to be honest with yourself and ask, "Is this lass so wasted that it's hella creepy for me to do her?"

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PostRe: Ched Evans, rapist - should he play football again?
by Skarjo » Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:37 pm

[iup=3652137]Nathanbrains[/iup] wrote:Should women not take responsibility for the alcohol they consume?


Yes, but, 'consuming a large amount of alcohol' is not a crime. If it were a crime, then yes, she'd have to take responsibility for it.

However, 'getting strawberry floated by some guy who crawled in the window while you were unconscious' is not a crime and not something she should have to take responsibility for.

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PostRe: Ched Evans, rapist - should he play football again?
by Nathanbrains » Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:45 pm

[iup=3652342]Skarjo[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3652137]Nathanbrains[/iup] wrote:Should women not take responsibility for the alcohol they consume?


Yes, but, 'consuming a large amount of alcohol' is not a crime. If it were a crime, then yes, she'd have to take responsibility for it.

However, 'getting strawberry floated by some guy who crawled in the window while you were unconscious' is not a crime and not something she should have to take responsibility for.


I think I made it fairly clear in my previous posts that what Evans did is in no way comparable to someone going out,getting drunk then having sex with a girl on a night out. What he did was rape, no question. That's not what was being discussed though.

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PostRe: Ched Evans, rapist - should he play football again?
by Skarjo » Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:19 pm

[iup=3652416]Nathanbrains[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3652342]Skarjo[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3652137]Nathanbrains[/iup] wrote:Should women not take responsibility for the alcohol they consume?


Yes, but, 'consuming a large amount of alcohol' is not a crime. If it were a crime, then yes, she'd have to take responsibility for it.

However, 'getting strawberry floated by some guy who crawled in the window while you were unconscious' is not a crime and not something she should have to take responsibility for.


I think I made it fairly clear in my previous posts that what Evans did is in no way comparable to someone going out,getting drunk then having sex with a girl on a night out. What he did was rape, no question. That's not what was being discussed though.


But the logic is no different in any other case.

You are responsible for how much alcohol you drink; no doubt. You are also responsible for the decisions you make under the influence; no one denies this. But you are not responsible for someone taking advantage of you because you're drunk, regardless of how much you drank.

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PostRe: Ched Evans, rapist - should he play football again?
by Nathanbrains » Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:34 pm

[iup=3652425]Skarjo[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3652416]Nathanbrains[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3652342]Skarjo[/iup] wrote:
[iup=3652137]Nathanbrains[/iup] wrote:Should women not take responsibility for the alcohol they consume?


Yes, but, 'consuming a large amount of alcohol' is not a crime. If it were a crime, then yes, she'd have to take responsibility for it.

However, 'getting strawberry floated by some guy who crawled in the window while you were unconscious' is not a crime and not something she should have to take responsibility for.


I think I made it fairly clear in my previous posts that what Evans did is in no way comparable to someone going out,getting drunk then having sex with a girl on a night out. What he did was rape, no question. That's not what was being discussed though.


But the logic is no different in any other case.

You are responsible for how much alcohol you drink; no doubt. You are also responsible for the decisions you make under the influence; no one denies this. But you are not responsible for someone taking advantage of you because you're drunk, regardless of how much you drank.


I agree with you, I don't think I've tried to argue any different?

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PostRe: Ched Evans, rapist - should he play football again?
by Skarjo » Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:30 pm

Then what do you mean by;

[iup=3652137]Nathanbrains[/iup] wrote:I think this is where the whole law around consent is a bit of a mess. Should women not take responsibility for the alcohol they consume?


Because it sounds like you're saying that women currently abuse consent laws to get out of facing up to the consequences of drinking.

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PostRe: Ched Evans, rapist - should he play football again?
by Nathanbrains » Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:19 pm

[iup=3652462]Skarjo[/iup] wrote:Then what do you mean by;

[iup=3652137]Nathanbrains[/iup] wrote:I think this is where the whole law around consent is a bit of a mess. Should women not take responsibility for the alcohol they consume?


Because it sounds like you're saying that women currently abuse consent laws to get out of facing up to the consequences of drinking.


That is absolutely not what I'm saying at all.

That quote was a response to OB saying men shouldn't trust themselves to gauge a girls drunkenness, as though if a man and woman both get drunk then it's only the man who should be responsible for what happens. Obviously if a woman is far drunker than a man then he has a responsibility to not take advantage, but I feel like that's something most people do anyway. I could be wrong about that of course.

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PostRe: Ched Evans, rapist - should he play football again?
by Photek » Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:23 am

"The Law Says..." Poser.

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PostRe: Ched Evans, rapist - should he play football again?
by Poser » Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:35 am

Huh? :?

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PostRe: Ched Evans, rapist - should he play football again?
by Photek » Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:41 am

[iup=3653441]Poser[/iup] wrote:Huh? :?

A woman can't penetrate a man etc. etc.... innit poser.

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PostRe: Ched Evans, rapist - should he play football again?
by Poser » Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:54 am

:lol:

Seriously, what are you on about?

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PostRe: Ched Evans, rapist - should he play football again?
by <]:^D » Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:33 pm

are you referencing the fact that rape is penis penetration and women would get done for sexual assault not rape? :?:


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