The Coronavirus Thread - Lockdown for at least 3 more weeks

Hime wrote:[...] this simplistic view of rich person equals bad [... and having that] feeling about anyone even remotely successful. I've avoided bringing up the topic of the people to whom the £2500 furlough payment will be a reasonable pay cut for this reason.

This is a bit unfair. I do think billionaires are bad people - I feel like there's plenty of evidence for that - but I don't think everyone wealthier than me is bad on a personal level at all.

My politics aren't based on resentment, they're based on wanting to empower ordinary people. Anyone who makes their living by working for a wage is a worker.

Nice of Disney to stop paying 100,000 workers at the moment, saving them $500m a month.
https://www.ft.com/content/db574838-0f4 ... 039f8cb288

I'm sure the employees will be comforted by the news that shareholders will still get their $1.5 billion in dividends in July though, and executive bonuses have been protected.

Oblomov Boblomov wrote:The problem with any system is that you need humans in order to run it.

Let's face it, en masse we are pricks whether we're rich or poor, powerful or not powerful. In a capitalist (or rather, plutocratic) society, the rich people have the power to impact the poor people.

If the poor people had the power to impact the rich people, or even other poor people, they'd be pricks too.

Destructive nihilism in 3... 2... 1...

America and worker's rights, name a more iconic duo

Karl_ wrote:
Hime wrote:[...] this simplistic view of rich person equals bad [... and having that] feeling about anyone even remotely successful. I've avoided bringing up the topic of the people to whom the £2500 furlough payment will be a reasonable pay cut for this reason.

This is a bit unfair. I do think billionaires are bad people - I feel like there's plenty of evidence for that - but I don't think everyone wealthier than me is bad on a personal level at all.

My politics aren't based on resentment, they're based on wanting to empower ordinary people. Anyone who makes their living by working for a wage is a worker.

I’m perfectly happy for some people to be billionaires or even trillionaires as long as the very poorest people have a good standard of living.

Oblomov Boblomov wrote:The problem with any system is that you need humans in order to run it.

Let's face it, en masse we are pricks whether we're rich or poor, powerful or not powerful. In a capitalist (or rather, plutocratic) society, the rich people have the power to impact the poor people.

If the poor people had the power to impact the rich people, or even other poor people, they'd be pricks too.

Destructive nihilism in 3... 2... 1...

Yeah, people are inherently selfish at the end of the day.

Not everyone, but it's very difficult for those people to get into meaningful positions of power, and those positions are usually compromised by other's selfish issues anyway.

Happy Tuesday everyone! :toot:

Hime wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Lex-Man wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Grumpy David wrote:Capitalism has taken hundreds of millions of people out of absolute poverty.

https://medium.com/@aaronsd1996/debunki ... 62c9a992a7

Capitalism has its role, but capitalism alone isn’t lifting anybody out of poverty and pure capitalism is just a recipe for misery. Capitalism needs to be combined with socialism in order to actually help people.

I 100% agree with this.

That was an interesting article, however isn't there bigger issues than political ideology with some of the poor countries listed in that they are rife with corruption? These populations are being kept poor by force.

But generally the corporations are helping the corrupt governments. That said I don't think the whole of capitalism is bad but it needs a way to act more ethically and control growth in a way that helps reduce the damage to the environment.

7256930752

Karl_ wrote:
Hime wrote:[...] this simplistic view of rich person equals bad [... and having that] feeling about anyone even remotely successful. I've avoided bringing up the topic of the people to whom the £2500 furlough payment will be a reasonable pay cut for this reason.

This is a bit unfair. I do think billionaires are bad people - I feel like there's plenty of evidence for that - but I don't think everyone wealthier than me is bad on a personal level at all.

My politics aren't based on resentment, they're based on wanting to empower ordinary people. Anyone who makes their living by working for a wage is a worker.

I didn't mean that you think they are necessarily bad as such, more the onus of responsibility and your belief that effort it choices ever has a part to play in personal circumstances. To caveat that, this doesn't mean that I believe that choices and effort are the only determining factor.

Hime wrote:
Skarjo wrote:The amount of airlines who've been 'bailed out' and then IMMEDIATELY announced massive layoffs is disgusting.

I genuinely don't get why more people aren't angry.

Which ones? Qantas is the obvious one and yeah it's ridiculous, I'm sure plenty of people are being vocal about it.

Pretty sure I read that United, Cathay and Thai air were in the same boat.

Not saying there’s an easy solution, but them being so brazen about ‘soon as the government stops subsidising you, you’re gone’.

Tomous wrote:
Oblomov Boblomov wrote:The problem with any system is that you need humans in order to run it.

Yeah, people are inherently selfish at the end of the day.

I'd recommend the essay Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution. It's an interesting discussion about how evolution and, like, the instinct to look after yourself, which seem selfish, typically lead to selflessness in social animals.

It concludes that the ability to help each other is at least as important as the ability to fight, in an animal's evolutionary fitness and success.

Given customers would have pre-paid for flights later in the year, if airlines collapse customers will be the ones hit hardest as airlines don't do refunds. British Airways gave me a credit note for the flights I was supposed to have in May but are refusing to give me anything for my planned holiday in December.

7256930752 · Last edited by 7256930752 on Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lex-Man wrote:
Hime wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Lex-Man wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Grumpy David wrote:Capitalism has taken hundreds of millions of people out of absolute poverty.

https://medium.com/@aaronsd1996/debunki ... 62c9a992a7

Capitalism has its role, but capitalism alone isn’t lifting anybody out of poverty and pure capitalism is just a recipe for misery. Capitalism needs to be combined with socialism in order to actually help people.

I 100% agree with this.

That was an interesting article, however isn't there bigger issues than political ideology with some of the poor countries listed in that they are rife with corruption? These populations are being kept poor by force.

But generally the corporations are helping the corrupt governments. That said I don't think the whole of capitalism is bad but it needs a way to act more ethically and control growth in a way that helps reduce the damage to the environment.

Yeah I agree. I hate the term 'the market will correct itself' if that were true companies would be moving to less well off areas where it's cheaper and stimulating that economy. The reality is everything is centered around a few small places and there is no mechanism to stop unsustainable growth.

7256930752

Karl_ wrote:
Tomous wrote:
Oblomov Boblomov wrote:The problem with any system is that you need humans in order to run it.

Yeah, people are inherently selfish at the end of the day.

I'd recommend the essay Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution. It's an interesting discussion about how evolution and, like, the instinct to look after yourself, which seem selfish, typically lead to selflessness in social animals.

It concludes that the ability to help each other is at least as important as the ability to fight, in an animal's evolutionary fitness and success.

That's why animals aren't top of the food chain.

Well mice and dolphins are still smarter than us but we're a respectable third!

Hime wrote:
Karl_ wrote:
Tomous wrote:
Oblomov Boblomov wrote:The problem with any system is that you need humans in order to run it.

Yeah, people are inherently selfish at the end of the day.

I'd recommend the essay Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution. It's an interesting discussion about how evolution and, like, the instinct to look after yourself, which seem selfish, typically lead to selflessness in social animals.

It concludes that the ability to help each other is at least as important as the ability to fight, in an animal's evolutionary fitness and success.

That's why animals aren't top of the food chain.

The existence of this thread suggests that viruses are the top of the food chain.

7256930752

Moggy wrote:
Hime wrote:
Karl_ wrote:
Tomous wrote:
Oblomov Boblomov wrote:The problem with any system is that you need humans in order to run it.

Yeah, people are inherently selfish at the end of the day.

I'd recommend the essay Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution. It's an interesting discussion about how evolution and, like, the instinct to look after yourself, which seem selfish, typically lead to selflessness in social animals.

It concludes that the ability to help each other is at least as important as the ability to fight, in an animal's evolutionary fitness and success.

That's why animals aren't top of the food chain.

The existence of this thread suggests that viruses are the top of the food chain.

Which may have been concocted by animals. The circle of life indeed.

Hime wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Hime wrote:
Karl_ wrote:
Tomous wrote:
Oblomov Boblomov wrote:The problem with any system is that you need humans in order to run it.

Yeah, people are inherently selfish at the end of the day.

I'd recommend the essay Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution. It's an interesting discussion about how evolution and, like, the instinct to look after yourself, which seem selfish, typically lead to selflessness in social animals.

It concludes that the ability to help each other is at least as important as the ability to fight, in an animal's evolutionary fitness and success.

That's why animals aren't top of the food chain.

The existence of this thread suggests that viruses are the top of the food chain.

Which may have been concocted by animals. The circle of life indeed.

All hail our bat virus overlords.

Corazon de Leon

Skarjo wrote:
Hime wrote:
Skarjo wrote:The amount of airlines who've been 'bailed out' and then IMMEDIATELY announced massive layoffs is disgusting.

I genuinely don't get why more people aren't angry.

Which ones? Qantas is the obvious one and yeah it's ridiculous, I'm sure plenty of people are being vocal about it.

Pretty sure I read that United, Cathay and Thai air were in the same boat.

Not saying there’s an easy solution, but them being so brazen about ‘soon as the government stops subsidising you, you’re gone’.

Indeed, that is pretty vile.

Godzilla wrote:73% Of Inmates At An Ohio Prison Test Positive For Coronavirus

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronaviru ... 7458253926

Unlike quarantined cruise ships which disproportionately represents the elderly, prisons will almost certainly disproportionately represent adults under the age of 50.

So far, no deaths in that prison, will make an interesting case study for herd immunity if the percentage who die or get seriously ill turns out lower than expected.

Grumpy David wrote:
Godzilla wrote:73% Of Inmates At An Ohio Prison Test Positive For Coronavirus

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronaviru ... 7458253926

Unlike quarantined cruise ships which disproportionately represents the elderly, prisons will almost certainly disproportionately represent adults under the age of 50.

So far, no deaths in that prison, will make an interesting case study for herd immunity if the percentage who die or get seriously ill turns out lower than expected.

About a fifth of us prisoners are over 50. I have a feeling that due to poor hygiene conditions in prison Covid-19 will be more lethal.

The Coronavirus Thread - Lockdown for at least 3 more weeks

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