Coronavirus & stuff

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That
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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by That » Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:59 am

Oblomov Boblomov wrote:This thing has killed millions and caused suffering on an unimaginable global scale. If it turned out it happened because a group of people did a whoopsie, surely that would deserve more than a shrug of the shoulders?

If a lab accident were the origin of this outbreak and it could be shown someone was negligent then that person might be tried for negligence by the appropriate bodies in China. It's their courts and their decision. What does it have to do with the West, especially the western far-right?

I would have qualms even if this investigation were being politicised for "justice" (punishment) as I don't believe in retributive justice. But it's not even that! It's being politicised to justify and encourage nationalism and racism, and a general strategy of antagonism.

If you want to hold people accountable for the deaths here, Boris Johnson is far more morally responsible for the UK death toll than a hypothetical clumsy researcher. Regardless of any origin research we already know who is responsible for the one ​hundred and fifty thousand deaths in this country.

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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by OrangeRKN » Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:18 am

Karl_ wrote:
Oblomov Boblomov wrote:This thing has killed millions and caused suffering on an unimaginable global scale. If it turned out it happened because a group of people did a whoopsie, surely that would deserve more than a shrug of the shoulders?

If a lab accident were the origin of this outbreak and it could be shown someone was negligent then that person might be tried for negligence by the appropriate bodies in China. It's their courts and their decision. What does it have to do with the West, especially the western far-right?


If it were the case, then it's important to know so that procedures can be reviewed and changed where necessary to prevent such an accident happening again. That knowledge should then be shared internationally so everyone can learn from it. If it were the case that the Chinese authorities were aware of an accident but did not disclose it, there should rightly be international pressure for more transparency as an earlier disclosure could have had a huge impact on preparations for dealing with and preventing the spread of the virus.

I think you would agree with this, but you frame it like the only outcome of finding out it was a "lab leak" would be to prosecute the researcher responsible. That carries an implicit assumption that the fault was purely down to human negligence, not a lack of safeguards or sufficient safety procedure, and I think that assumption is unfounded.

Of course this is all hypothetical and the most likely origin of the virus is natural, but it's important to fully investigate not for accountability but for reviewing systems to reduce the chance of a pandemic happening again, and to ensure the international response can be as effective as possible if one does.

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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Buffalo » Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:21 am

The inevitable HBO miniseries in about 20 years from now should be good if it ends up to be true.

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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Cuttooth » Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:22 am

Buffalo wrote:The inevitable HBO miniseries in about 20 years from now should be good if it ends up to be true.

I give it two years tops for the first, hard hitting serious film that will sweep the Oscars.

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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Oblomov Boblomov » Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:23 am

Karl_ wrote:
Oblomov Boblomov wrote:This thing has killed millions and caused suffering on an unimaginable global scale. If it turned out it happened because a group of people did a whoopsie, surely that would deserve more than a shrug of the shoulders?

If a lab accident were the origin of this outbreak and it could be shown someone was negligent then that person might be tried for negligence by the appropriate bodies in China. It's their courts and their decision. What does it have to do with the West, especially the western far-right?

I would have qualms even if this investigation were being politicised for "justice" (punishment) as I don't believe in retributive justice. But it's not even that! It's being politicised to justify and encourage nationalism and racism, and a general strategy of antagonism.

If you want to hold people accountable for the deaths here, Boris Johnson is far more morally responsible for the UK death toll than a hypothetical clumsy researcher. Regardless of any origin research we already know who is responsible for the one ​hundred and fifty thousand deaths in this country.

Going back to my original point about manslaughter, surely the cause of the accident is reasonably considered to be the business of the victim (where you ask what it has to do with the West (and presumably anyone outside China?))?

I won't argue it'll be charged with political bullshit to fuel nationalist racism etc; that's very obviously the case. Right-wing pricks will try and tag that on to anything.

I certainly do want to hold Boris Johnson and the Conservative Party accountable for deaths here in the UK and that is where all my effort is focused on (e.g. posting on social media, speaking to friends/family etc). This is the first time I've engaged in a debate on the origin of the virus, as I am surprised by the idea that it doesn't matter if it was some sort of experiment that went wrong.

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Buffalo
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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Buffalo » Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:25 am

Cuttooth wrote:
Buffalo wrote:The inevitable HBO miniseries in about 20 years from now should be good if it ends up to be true.

I give it two years tops for the first, hard hitting serious film that will sweep the Oscars.


OMG let’s cast it.

If we’re wanting the Oscars then Frances Mc…her from Fargo needs to be in it. Err…someone like Daniel Day Lewis as Donald Trump?

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Victor Mildew
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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Victor Mildew » Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:28 am

Buffalo wrote:
Cuttooth wrote:
Buffalo wrote:The inevitable HBO miniseries in about 20 years from now should be good if it ends up to be true.

I give it two years tops for the first, hard hitting serious film that will sweep the Oscars.


OMG let’s cast it.

If we’re wanting the Oscars then Frances Mc…her from Fargo needs to be in it. Err…someone like Daniel Day Lewis as Donald Trump?


Pedro Pascall as the made up character who's on the inside, maybe an inspector or something, who's going to blow this whole thing wide open, UNTIL, he gets covid himself and dissapears!

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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Buffalo » Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:30 am

Victor Mildew wrote:
Buffalo wrote:
Cuttooth wrote:
Buffalo wrote:The inevitable HBO miniseries in about 20 years from now should be good if it ends up to be true.

I give it two years tops for the first, hard hitting serious film that will sweep the Oscars.


OMG let’s cast it.

If we’re wanting the Oscars then Frances Mc…her from Fargo needs to be in it. Err…someone like Daniel Day Lewis as Donald Trump?


Pedro Pascall as the made up character who's on the inside, maybe an inspector or something, who's going to blow this whole thing wide open, UNTIL, he gets covid himself and dissapears!


Oh snap, when Chernobyl replaced a team of IRL people with the female Wilson character, we’ll get Mel Gibson to represent all the anti-vaxers or something.

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That
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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by That » Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:37 am

OrangeRKN wrote:I think you would agree with this, but you frame it like the only outcome of finding out it was a "lab leak" would be to prosecute the researcher responsible. That carries an implicit assumption that the fault was purely down to human negligence, not a lack of safeguards or sufficient safety procedure, and I think that assumption is unfounded.

I'm not framing it like that, of course I think neutral and scientific investigations are a good thing for all the reasons you've specified. (One's been done already!) I'm responding to and disputing a right-wing framing - I was even explicitly asked a question about it being "manslaughter"! - which means I have to engage with that framing, but that's different to endorsing that framing myself.

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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by OrangeRKN » Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:22 pm

I misunderstood then!

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Rex Kramer
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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Rex Kramer » Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:11 pm

Imagine, just for a second, being as dumb as Lee Hurst. What an absolute strawberry floating tool.

twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1405495676226752513


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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Moggy » Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:15 pm

Rex Kramer wrote:Imagine, just for a second, being as dumb as Lee Hurst. What an absolute strawberry floating tool.

twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1405495676226752513



I think half of Europe dying is a small price to pay for me being able to go into a shop without a mask.

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Victor Mildew
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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Victor Mildew » Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:21 pm

Moggy wrote:
Rex Kramer wrote:Imagine, just for a second, being as dumb as Lee Hurst. What an absolute strawberry floating tool.

twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1405495676226752513



I think half of Europe dying is a small price to pay for me being able to go into a shop without a mask.


But we left Europe, so us English are safe and don't need to wear no mask at all!

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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Rex Kramer » Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:22 pm

It is probably the funniest thing Lee Hurst has ever written but not for the reasons he would hope.

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Victor Mildew
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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Victor Mildew » Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:26 pm

He's definitely going to break out the Staydead defence over this one.

Hexx wrote:Ad7 is older and balder than I thought.
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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Parksey » Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:26 pm

What's the deal with British citizens having the vaccine abroad?

Looks like I'm going to get offered it soon in Japan, and there's only a short wait between doses here.

But I'll be back in the UK permanently at the end of the summer. Originally was going to get my vaccine then and wait the 12 weeks between doses, but not sure whether I should take it now.

My first concern was the different in waits between the doses, with a longer wait seemingly more effective. But then I thought about not being able to prove I've been vaccinated if I got it done in Japan, and not being able to use that NHS app to prove my vaccinations, which could later impact on foreign travel.

Can't find any advice on this situation on the NHS website. It's presumably quite niche given no-one's really been abroad for ages, and those that have have just been going on a sneaky jollies to escape lockdown.

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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Hexx » Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:31 pm

Oblomov Boblomov wrote:, as I am surprised by the idea that it doesn't matter if it was some sort of experiment that went wrong.


My ‘so what’ was more in response to the political/right wing angle that seems to be ‘it was China’s fault’ to distract from or dimish local government failings rather than the entire topic.

Could have made that clearer

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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Rex Kramer » Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:32 pm

I think the previous 12 week gap has all but been abandoned, two people in my office had their first jabs at the weekend and both have an 8 week gap now. My second jab was brought forward as well to 8 weeks (last weekend).

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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by JCDenton » Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:43 pm

Hexx wrote:
Oblomov Boblomov wrote:, as I am surprised by the idea that it doesn't matter if it was some sort of experiment that went wrong.


My ‘so what’ was more in response to the political/right wing angle that seems to be ‘it was China’s fault’ to distract from or dimish local government failings rather than the entire topic.

Could have made that clearer

Sure.

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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Photek » Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:03 pm

Isn't is just that Nature.com that is pushing this lab theory though??

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