Coronavirus & stuff

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Rex Kramer
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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Rex Kramer » Sat May 23, 2020 9:07 am

Oblomov Boblomov wrote:Why are people so eager to believe in conspiracy theories? Why does this seem to be getting worse? Is there a psychological explanation?

I have a burning hatred for conspiracy theorists, and at the moment it feels like that's starting to mean I have a burning hatred for half of humanity!

Have a read of Voodoo Histories by David Aaronovitch.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B004LB59X2/ ... TF8&btkr=1

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Oblomov Boblomov
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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Oblomov Boblomov » Sat May 23, 2020 9:09 am

Rex Kramer wrote:
Oblomov Boblomov wrote:Why are people so eager to believe in conspiracy theories? Why does this seem to be getting worse? Is there a psychological explanation?

I have a burning hatred for conspiracy theorists, and at the moment it feels like that's starting to mean I have a burning hatred for half of humanity!

Have a read of Voodoo Histories by David Aaronovitch.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B004LB59X2/ ... TF8&btkr=1

Don't have a Kindle :( I refuse to get one because they're made by Amazon and, as we all know, they control the EU and murdered Jade Goody.

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Hypes
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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Hypes » Sat May 23, 2020 9:17 am

Spot on Karl

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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Karl_ » Sat May 23, 2020 9:18 am

Errkal wrote:No I’m not, I’m saying you made the swap of “Momentum” for “Labour” which meant you were accusing someone of suggesting that what Momentum think is what Labour think.

As I’ve said I didn’t read the article, I’m not going to, and I’m not referencing it. I’m saying you yourself just you, are twisting what someone said to suggest they are tarnishing all of Labour with the momentum brush.

Go at them for saying momentum are banana splits if you want but say that, don’t swap “Momentum” for “Labour” they are not one and the same, Momentum are a subset like the ERG are a subset and should be treated as such.

To summarise, my issue with your word swapping, naff all to do with the argument. Hope this clears it up and you can go “sorry mate I didn’t realise” and next time not conflate someone’s reference to a group of mental with a larger group to mean they a referring the whole group.

Sure, OK. I feel bad for you that you're carrying around all this anger and hate about other Labour members. I don't view "Momentum" as an insult(?), and you should understand that when Tories pop off at a particular faction / group / person within Labour (or a union, etc.) they do it to undermine the left as a whole. In other contexts factional criticism is healthy, but unity is the right tactical response to Tory bait as clearly in-fighting gives them what they want. I don't like Starmer very much but I'd stick up for him if a Tory was banging on about him.

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Errkal
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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Errkal » Sat May 23, 2020 9:25 am

Karl_ wrote:
Errkal wrote:No I’m not, I’m saying you made the swap of “Momentum” for “Labour” which meant you were accusing someone of suggesting that what Momentum think is what Labour think.

As I’ve said I didn’t read the article, I’m not going to, and I’m not referencing it. I’m saying you yourself just you, are twisting what someone said to suggest they are tarnishing all of Labour with the momentum brush.

Go at them for saying momentum are banana splits if you want but say that, don’t swap “Momentum” for “Labour” they are not one and the same, Momentum are a subset like the ERG are a subset and should be treated as such.

To summarise, my issue with your word swapping, naff all to do with the argument. Hope this clears it up and you can go “sorry mate I didn’t realise” and next time not conflate someone’s reference to a group of mental with a larger group to mean they a referring the whole group.

Sure, OK. I feel bad for you that you're carrying around all this anger and hate about other Labour members. I don't view "Momentum" as an insult(?), and you should understand that when Tories pop off at a particular faction / group / person within Labour (or a union, etc.) they do it to undermine the left as a whole. Unity is the right response to that, in-fighting gives them what they want. I don't like Starmer very much but I'd stick up for him if a Tory was banging on about him.


I wouldn’t say I hate Momentum, I don’t think they are good, I don’t think they are actually helping labour as a whole, they are further left than I am and I think the country is / should be so them dragging the party that way just makes the conservatives job easier.

Corbyn was a outright failure and perusing that further just keeps the conservatives in power longer.

Honestly my only issue here is that you swapped the word “Momentum” for “Labour” suggesting they were one and the same instead of one being a subset of the other.

If a claim is levelled at Momentum it cant be assumed the same applies to labour, that’s what your comment suggested and that is all I am taking issue with.

I don’t think they help the party but that’s a whole different issue.

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Rex Kramer
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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Rex Kramer » Sat May 23, 2020 9:44 am

Oblomov Boblomov wrote:
Rex Kramer wrote:
Oblomov Boblomov wrote:Why are people so eager to believe in conspiracy theories? Why does this seem to be getting worse? Is there a psychological explanation?

I have a burning hatred for conspiracy theorists, and at the moment it feels like that's starting to mean I have a burning hatred for half of humanity!

Have a read of Voodoo Histories by David Aaronovitch.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B004LB59X2/ ... TF8&btkr=1

Don't have a Kindle :( I refuse to get one because they're made by Amazon and, as we all know, they control the EU and murdered Jade Goody.

Available at £4.48 for hardback.

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Cuttooth
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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Cuttooth » Sat May 23, 2020 9:59 am

Moggy wrote:
Karl_ wrote:
Errkal wrote:Didn’t read it, didn’t see a link to it. I was making the point that you have taken someone mentioning Momentum and swapping that to mean they were saying Labour which is like equating what the ERG say to be what all conservatives say.

People bitch and spacey all the time about misrepresentation or whatever, so don’t do it too.


The article was a survey about coronavirus, which revealed 20% of English people think it is part of a Jewish and/or Muslim plot to undermine the country.

I think when there's a post about the prevalence of far-right conspiracy theories and someone's instinct is to deflect, that reveals something about what their priorities are. Vermilion saw an article about the prevalence of far-right conspiracies and his priority was to put the attention on the left. "Don't talk about Nazis," the subtext says, "talk about some people I don't like instead".

I know you really hate Momentum, but in the context of this situation you've fallen for the rhetorical trick - you're now talking about being mad at a left group you dislike, rather than at the far-right conspiracy theorists who comprise 1 in 5 of the English population - and you've got to stop that, because letting the Tories get away with that will hurt your "soft-left" movement as much as it hurts other bits of Labour and the left in general.

If you can't move past this then it might start to seem like you care more about ranting about Momentum than you do about actually combatting the Tories, particularly given it's now your bit of Labour in charge again.


I mostly agree with you Karl, it's also interesting (I'm not pointing fingers at anybody from here!) that the conversation is "20% of people blame the Jews", when the article says 20% blame Jews and/or Muslims. The modern far right is far more likely to be openly Islamophobic than antisemitic and so it's interesting that the narrative is shifted away from that.

I think you're wrong to suggest 20% are far right conspiracy theorists though. The far left are just as capable of their own ridiculous conspiracy theories and (thanks to Israel/Palestine) antisemitism. That doesn't mean Labour/Momentum make up anywhere close to the majority of that 20%, I agree most will be far right.

I'm not sure antisemitism on the left generally manifests itself as the kind of white nationalist conspiracy as "Jews have created the virus to collapse the economy for financial gain" though. Not saying it wouldn't at all but that the separate question of "Muslims are deliberately spreading the disease to undermine the West" also being positively received by 20% of people would point way more heavily to the far right rhetoric of white people being replaced in the west.

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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Moggy » Sat May 23, 2020 10:14 am

Cuttooth wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Karl_ wrote:
Errkal wrote:Didn’t read it, didn’t see a link to it. I was making the point that you have taken someone mentioning Momentum and swapping that to mean they were saying Labour which is like equating what the ERG say to be what all conservatives say.

People bitch and spacey all the time about misrepresentation or whatever, so don’t do it too.


The article was a survey about coronavirus, which revealed 20% of English people think it is part of a Jewish and/or Muslim plot to undermine the country.

I think when there's a post about the prevalence of far-right conspiracy theories and someone's instinct is to deflect, that reveals something about what their priorities are. Vermilion saw an article about the prevalence of far-right conspiracies and his priority was to put the attention on the left. "Don't talk about Nazis," the subtext says, "talk about some people I don't like instead".

I know you really hate Momentum, but in the context of this situation you've fallen for the rhetorical trick - you're now talking about being mad at a left group you dislike, rather than at the far-right conspiracy theorists who comprise 1 in 5 of the English population - and you've got to stop that, because letting the Tories get away with that will hurt your "soft-left" movement as much as it hurts other bits of Labour and the left in general.

If you can't move past this then it might start to seem like you care more about ranting about Momentum than you do about actually combatting the Tories, particularly given it's now your bit of Labour in charge again.


I mostly agree with you Karl, it's also interesting (I'm not pointing fingers at anybody from here!) that the conversation is "20% of people blame the Jews", when the article says 20% blame Jews and/or Muslims. The modern far right is far more likely to be openly Islamophobic than antisemitic and so it's interesting that the narrative is shifted away from that.

I think you're wrong to suggest 20% are far right conspiracy theorists though. The far left are just as capable of their own ridiculous conspiracy theories and (thanks to Israel/Palestine) antisemitism. That doesn't mean Labour/Momentum make up anywhere close to the majority of that 20%, I agree most will be far right.

I'm not sure antisemitism on the left generally manifests itself as the kind of white nationalist conspiracy as "Jews have created the virus to collapse the economy for financial gain" though. Not saying it wouldn't at all but that the separate question of "Muslims are deliberately spreading the disease to undermine the West" also being positively received by 20% of people would point way more heavily to the far right rhetoric of white people being replaced in the west.


No, but left wing antisemitism can easily manifest as "it was created in a lab in Tel Aviv"

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Cuttooth
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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Cuttooth » Sat May 23, 2020 10:39 am

Moggy wrote:
Cuttooth wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Karl_ wrote:
Errkal wrote:Didn’t read it, didn’t see a link to it. I was making the point that you have taken someone mentioning Momentum and swapping that to mean they were saying Labour which is like equating what the ERG say to be what all conservatives say.

People bitch and spacey all the time about misrepresentation or whatever, so don’t do it too.


The article was a survey about coronavirus, which revealed 20% of English people think it is part of a Jewish and/or Muslim plot to undermine the country.

I think when there's a post about the prevalence of far-right conspiracy theories and someone's instinct is to deflect, that reveals something about what their priorities are. Vermilion saw an article about the prevalence of far-right conspiracies and his priority was to put the attention on the left. "Don't talk about Nazis," the subtext says, "talk about some people I don't like instead".

I know you really hate Momentum, but in the context of this situation you've fallen for the rhetorical trick - you're now talking about being mad at a left group you dislike, rather than at the far-right conspiracy theorists who comprise 1 in 5 of the English population - and you've got to stop that, because letting the Tories get away with that will hurt your "soft-left" movement as much as it hurts other bits of Labour and the left in general.

If you can't move past this then it might start to seem like you care more about ranting about Momentum than you do about actually combatting the Tories, particularly given it's now your bit of Labour in charge again.


I mostly agree with you Karl, it's also interesting (I'm not pointing fingers at anybody from here!) that the conversation is "20% of people blame the Jews", when the article says 20% blame Jews and/or Muslims. The modern far right is far more likely to be openly Islamophobic than antisemitic and so it's interesting that the narrative is shifted away from that.

I think you're wrong to suggest 20% are far right conspiracy theorists though. The far left are just as capable of their own ridiculous conspiracy theories and (thanks to Israel/Palestine) antisemitism. That doesn't mean Labour/Momentum make up anywhere close to the majority of that 20%, I agree most will be far right.

I'm not sure antisemitism on the left generally manifests itself as the kind of white nationalist conspiracy as "Jews have created the virus to collapse the economy for financial gain" though. Not saying it wouldn't at all but that the separate question of "Muslims are deliberately spreading the disease to undermine the West" also being positively received by 20% of people would point way more heavily to the far right rhetoric of white people being replaced in the west.


No, but left wing antisemitism can easily manifest as "it was created in a lab in Tel Aviv"

I'm really not sure it does! Or at least it requires a lot more work to move from the general antisemitic tropes parts of the left believe to that statement than it does for right wing nationalists. Anyway, what this article tells me is that racism is pretty mainstream in this country (half of people believe this is a Chinese bioweapon!) but that isn't a surprise anymore.



No 10 response on Cummings breaching the guidelines would suggest there weren’t any lockdown rules in place at all.

This is outrageous.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Moggy » Sat May 23, 2020 10:42 am

Cuttooth wrote:

No 10 response on Cummings breaching the guidelines would suggest there weren’t any lockdown rules in place at all.

This is outrageous.


It's disgusting. But it'll be ignored by those in power because sacking Cummings would mean they might have to take responsibility for their own lies and wrongdoings.

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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Cuttooth » Sat May 23, 2020 10:51 am




Fingers crossed another u-turn happens in the next few hours and he goes. People haven’t sacrificed having to see their loved ones, their own young children in many instances, for nothing. Scumbags.

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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Moggy » Sat May 23, 2020 11:02 am

Yeah, if his sister had travelled to pick up the kid(s) then that would be slightly different. Still wrong, Cummings wasn't seriously sick at the time, but different.

Driving 260 miles to stay with relatives is such an obvious breach of the rules. But they'll never admit it was wrong and will just wait for it to blow over. I'm losing hope that these banana splits will ever be held responsible for anything.

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Knoyleo
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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Knoyleo » Sat May 23, 2020 11:20 am

Errkal wrote:
Karl_ wrote:
Errkal wrote:No I’m not, I’m saying you made the swap of “Momentum” for “Labour” which meant you were accusing someone of suggesting that what Momentum think is what Labour think.

As I’ve said I didn’t read the article, I’m not going to, and I’m not referencing it. I’m saying you yourself just you, are twisting what someone said to suggest they are tarnishing all of Labour with the momentum brush.

Go at them for saying momentum are banana splits if you want but say that, don’t swap “Momentum” for “Labour” they are not one and the same, Momentum are a subset like the ERG are a subset and should be treated as such.

To summarise, my issue with your word swapping, naff all to do with the argument. Hope this clears it up and you can go “sorry mate I didn’t realise” and next time not conflate someone’s reference to a group of mental with a larger group to mean they a referring the whole group.

Sure, OK. I feel bad for you that you're carrying around all this anger and hate about other Labour members. I don't view "Momentum" as an insult(?), and you should understand that when Tories pop off at a particular faction / group / person within Labour (or a union, etc.) they do it to undermine the left as a whole. Unity is the right response to that, in-fighting gives them what they want. I don't like Starmer very much but I'd stick up for him if a Tory was banging on about him.


I wouldn’t say I hate Momentum, I don’t think they are good, I don’t think they are actually helping labour as a whole, they are further left than I am and I think the country is / should be so them dragging the party that way just makes the conservatives job easier.

Corbyn was a outright failure and perusing that further just keeps the conservatives in power longer.

Honestly my only issue here is that you swapped the word “Momentum” for “Labour” suggesting they were one and the same instead of one being a subset of the other.

If a claim is levelled at Momentum it cant be assumed the same applies to labour, that’s what your comment suggested and that is all I am taking issue with.

I don’t think they help the party but that’s a whole different issue.

You don't see Vermillion's Momentum comment as the same kind of rhetoric that was used to smear the entire Labour Party as having an anti semitism problem?

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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Lex-Man » Sat May 23, 2020 11:36 am

Moggy wrote:
Cuttooth wrote:

No 10 response on Cummings breaching the guidelines would suggest there weren’t any lockdown rules in place at all.

This is outrageous.


It's disgusting. But it'll be ignored by those in power because sacking Cummings would mean they might have to take responsibility for their own lies and wrongdoings.


Also it'd mean Boris had to do some work.

Amusement under late capitalism is the prolongation of work.
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satriales
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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by satriales » Sat May 23, 2020 11:41 am

Cummings has to resign or Boris has to sack him. There's no way he can get away with such obvious hypocrisy and rule breaking.

Instead of saying he acted legally, the government know he didn't so they say "he believed he was acting legally". Which is bullshit. Cummings was in the SAGE meetings and knows better than anyone what the laws are that he introduced.

I don't see this going away until he is out of the job. If that doesn't happen lots of idiots are just going to start ignoring the lockdown rules.

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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by kerr9000 » Sat May 23, 2020 11:45 am

I think people are so willing to believe in conspiracys because politicians are caught lying or miss directing the truth so often that people just kind of ask well if they lied about this what else did they lie about, also conspiracy theories often offer more easy answers...

If Coronovirus is a disease thats running rampant and is hard to control then this is a hard problem to solve, if its all being spread by 5g then you just smash the 5g masts so the nut case answer is easier.

People also naturally seem to like a scapegoat to blame, instead of going oh its a complex problem with multiple issues its a lot easier to just point and go oh its all this group over here there evil and want to take over the world or want to profit on all the death etc

http://kerr9000.blogspot.co.uk/ For my Blog... https://www.youtube.com/user/kerr9000 for my YouTube channel. kerr9000 on Xbox, PS4 kerr9000gamesroom on instergram
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satriales
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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by satriales » Sat May 23, 2020 11:57 am

Raab and Gove must have been ordered to try and defend Cummings on Twitter. So looks like he's not going to go easily.




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Cuttooth
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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Cuttooth » Sat May 23, 2020 12:01 pm

Sunak too.



I think they've completely misread the anger with this story, the covering of Cummings when they were bound to know what he’s done, and the disgraceful defence of his actions in the last day.

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Jenuall
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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Jenuall » Sat May 23, 2020 12:08 pm

Oh I see now, all these poor people not travelling to family just don't care enough! :fp:

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Dual
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PostRe: Coronavirus & stuff
by Dual » Sat May 23, 2020 12:13 pm

It would be easier for them to sack him than trying to defend his actions.


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