Election 2021: Who did you vote for?

Unemployment was at a relative peak circa 2010 because of the global financial crash. Regardless using the unemployment rate to draw conclusions about poverty is silly - just look at the poverty rate over time explicitly. Unemployment does not track perfectly against it for various reasons.

Last edited by Tomous on Thu May 13, 2021 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SillySprout wrote:From 1997 to 2010, under Labour, the tax free allowance increased from £4,045 to £6,475
Raised to £10,000 by Libdem / Tory by 2015
Raised to £12,500 today.

Source in my previous comment.

Yes it was a very good Lib Dem policy in 2015, one of their few victories in the coalition.

Again though, you can't compare Labour policy from 1997 to 2010 to Tory policy in 2010 to 2020. You need to be comparing to what Labour were pledging to do in their manifesto.

Edit: for example, Orange just mentioned the global financial crisis in 2008. What was good policy in 1998 is completely irrelevant on comparison to 2010 because the world was a different place with different needs. Isolating elements and figures for comparison doesn't tell you much.

OrangeRKN wrote:Unemployment was at a relative peak circa 2010 because of the global financial crash. Regardless using the unemployment rate to draw conclusions about poverty is silly - just look at the poverty rate over time explicitly. Unemployment does not track perfectly against it for various reasons.

This is a point that has been made repeatedly and seems to be getting ignored.

Can I add as a graduate I've experienced all of the Conservative style "jobs":

Fulltime unpaid internship in public broadcasting visual effects, in London. Fired for no cause

Part time unpaid charity volunteeeship. Not fired but could not afford to continue

Minimum wage job working in a call centre for a profitable vetting company owned by Capita. Not fired but could not cope without any reasonable adjustments owing to my disability, despite asking for them

Fired and rehired in contract position with no cause, for venture capital backed international private education provider (established to support international students studying abroad to get into UK universities where they pay the highest fees to subsidise the underfunded domestic student placements)

Zero hour contract lasting almost 2 years representing about 3-5% the yearly FT equivalent, or even the part time equivalent, for the 2nd worst cut university in the country following tory cuts to the University system. Oh and by the way I graduated from the same university with a 2:1 honours degree after I spent 16 years of my life in fulltime education. My student debt is approximately £40,000. Fired with no cause

All such spiffing opportunities available to me under this government I now elect to send tax to as a good little capitalist.

These things were my fault as I chose the "benefit lifestyle". Sure.

Also all modern employment statistics include the horror that is zero hour contracts, a Tory policy. If you took those away you'd see the horrific reality pretty quickly.

SillySprout wrote:That's 1.25 million people, effectively taken out of the benefit system and hopefully providing more opportunity for their families.

You are being very unfair by using stats from the height of the credit crunch. If we are playing that game, then let's look at 2020. Bloody Tories, putting everyone on benefits!!!

Of course we all know why benefit claims rocketed in 2020, a global pandemic. Just as we know why they went up between 2008-2012, a global recession.

If you look at the start of that graph, you'll see under Labour the benefit claims in the good times were about the same as the benefit claims under the Tories good times.

So, no. The Tories haven't taken people out of the benefits system.

And the situation is far far far worse than that graph shows as there are so many people now working in the gig economy.

https://www.jrf.org.uk/data?f[]=field_taxonomy_poverty_indicator:867&f[]=field_taxonomy_region:10
Poverty rates.

Edit. Sorry I can't get the link to format as URL. The short is, it's gone from 21% to 22%.

I know you are busy working SillySprout but you could kindly provide context for your links for those of us who are also busy and can only relate to our lived experience, unfortunately.

I don't know or care if this is relevant but I came out of a zero benefits claiming household despite not being able to afford repairing the heating for example. 3 children and 1 disabled parent working full time for 16 years until redundancy and then retirement.

I also started working at 14 setting up my own business.

Moggy wrote:
SillySprout wrote:That's 1.25 million people, effectively taken out of the benefit system and hopefully providing more opportunity for their families.

You are being very unfair by using stats from the height of the credit crunch. If we are playing that game, then let's look at 2020. Bloody Tories, putting everyone on benefits!!!

If you look at the start of that graph, you'll see under Labour the benefit claims in the good times were about the same as the benefit claims under the Tories good times.

By using count rather than percentage, your graph is not taking into account population increase of 5 million people. I've deliberately gone for percentages for fairness. I know that no quick stat found from Google is perfect, but I am trying to provide accurate comparisons, without any bias.

Are you going to address any of the personal testimonies from people depending on benefits in this thread or only chase the numbers for "fairness"?

You do realise your priorities make us feel like human scum, right?

Green Gecko wrote:I know you are busy working SillySprout but you could kindly provide context for your links for those of us who are also busy and can only relate to our lived experience, unfortunately.

The links are all there to be checked out by anyone who wishes to do so. The context is, these are the most reliable source I have found in the time I have spent looking. They are there to be challenged, should anyone think that the sources are incorrect, though they appear reputable to me.

SillySprout wrote:https://www.jrf.org.uk/data?f[]=field_taxonomy_poverty_indicator:867&f[]=field_taxonomy_region:10
Poverty rates.

Edit. Sorry I can't get the link to format as URL. The short is, it's gone from 21% to 22%.

https://www.jrf.org.uk/data?f%5B%5D=field_taxonomy_poverty_indicator:867&f%5B%5D=field_taxonomy_region:10

These stats are damning! It looks like more people are in poverty than at the beginning of Tory rule, except for pensioners.

Yes but therein you save yourself from engaging in an actual discussion with the people your chosen representative targets to make worse off in the near term. And I don't believe it helps them in the longer term. If even your theory might hold up for 1%, it harms 99%. Why is that cost worth it to you? That, I don't understand.

Please remember you are talking to one of those people. I deserve a voice and you can choose to hear it or not.

1.25m taken out of benefits? :slol:

Given how much his original position was based on his experience/knowledge (you wouldn’t get it if you weren’t there) the complete lack of understanding is amazing

SillySprout wrote:That's 1.25 million people, effectively taken out of the benefit system and hopefully providing more opportunity for their families.

Do you have a single fact to back that up?

Brilliant

Green Gecko wrote:Are you going to address any of the personal testimonies from people depending on benefits in this thread or only chase the numbers for "fairness"?

You do realise your priorities make us feel like human scum, right?

Please go back and read my comments, because I have made many attempts at providing clarity on my comments, but the rate at which I am being quoted is making it impossible for me to keep up and reply to every point raised, but the shouts of 'evil tory' (despite only ever having once voted Tory and only on local issues), is drowning out my points.

I am simply saying, for those who can work, improving the route into work and off benefits actually improves the life quality for those people, more so than increasing benefit payments. One is a long term solution, one is short term.

Please PM me if you feel personally offended, because that absolutely is not my intention and it saddens me to think that I may be causing upset, especially when I have tried to explain my opinion objectively and without offence and have shared personal experiences of the system, which were not up to scratch.

SillySprout wrote:
Moggy wrote:
SillySprout wrote:That's 1.25 million people, effectively taken out of the benefit system and hopefully providing more opportunity for their families.

You are being very unfair by using stats from the height of the credit crunch. If we are playing that game, then let's look at 2020. Bloody Tories, putting everyone on benefits!!!

If you look at the start of that graph, you'll see under Labour the benefit claims in the good times were about the same as the benefit claims under the Tories good times.

By using count rather than percentage, your graph is not taking into account population increase of 5 million people. I've deliberately gone for percentages for fairness. I know that no quick stat found from Google is perfect, but I am trying to provide accurate comparisons, without any bias.

Without any bias? You've been comparing figures from the height of the global recession to later years figures.

Do you seriously believe the Tories have been good for poor people?

SillySprout wrote:[but the shouts of 'evil tory' (despite only ever having once voted Tory and only on local issues), is drowning out my points.

Only one person has done that.

No one is shouting evil Tory at you. Your points are being answered and challenged and instead of replying you've posted random links that don't even back up what you're saying.

I appreciate a lot of people have replied but the same points are being made.

I'm actually staggered anyone can believe the Tories have benefitted the poor over the last decade after imposing austerity. But you're really not engaging in a conversation or debate here so I'm out.

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