Election 2021: Who did you vote for?

Fed up talking videogames? Why?

Who did you vote for?

[I am not voting] / [I am spoiling my ballot]
20
19%
[A joke party or candidate]
1
1%
[A far-left small party]
1
1%
Greens
11
11%
Scottish National Party / Plaid Cymru / Sinn Féin
14
13%
Labour / Social Democrats
35
34%
Liberal Democrats / Alliance
6
6%
Alba / Propel
0
No votes
Conservatives
10
10%
Democratic Unionist Party / Traditional Unionist Voice
0
No votes
Reform UK / UKIP
0
No votes
[A local party, or single-issue party]
1
1%
[An independent candidate]
5
5%
 
Total votes: 104
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Cuttooth
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PostRe: Election 2021: Who did you vote for?
by Cuttooth » Thu May 13, 2021 3:57 pm

Cuttooth wrote:
SillySprout wrote:https://www.jrf.org.uk/data?f[]=field_taxonomy_poverty_indicator:867&f[]=field_taxonomy_region:10
Poverty rates.

Edit. Sorry I can't get the link to format as URL. The short is, it's gone from 21% to 22%.


https://www.jrf.org.uk/data?f%5B%5D=field_taxonomy_poverty_indicator:867&f%5B%5D=field_taxonomy_region:10

These stats are damning! It looks like more people are in poverty than at the beginning of Tory rule, except for pensioners.

I legitimately don’t know why you’d post this to try to back up your point. Child poverty is almost at a level not seen since before the last Labour government for one. It backs up the claims from earlier that more households in poverty are in fact in work.

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Green Gecko
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PostRe: Election 2021: Who did you vote for?
by Green Gecko » Thu May 13, 2021 3:58 pm

I read all of your posts actually. That isn't what I was getting at Lee. It was simply that in order to hold these kinds of opinions I feel it is fair to listen to the people affected by those opinions.

You've got upset that you maybe make other people feel uncomfortable about claiming benefits they are entitled to. But by focusing on that you have effectively ignored them.

That's what conservative policies do. That's exactly what the conservatives have systematically done.

I'm also out. As a disabled benefit claiming graduate with a long and unstable work history, I have a lot to be getting on with running my own business and just working my way out of poverty because apparantly that's a sensible plan, and I would be better off if I didn't claim benefits because they're not there (and as I've explained previously, I willfully avoided that for many years, despite my circumstances actually being worse than they are now).

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Sprouty
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AKA: SillySprout

PostRe: Election 2021: Who did you vote for?
by Sprouty » Thu May 13, 2021 4:03 pm

Tomous wrote:But you're really not engaging in a conversation or debate here so I'm out.


If providing proof of unemployment, taxes & earnings for comparison is not engaging, then I don't honestly know what is. By all means, provide evidence to counter the argument, but I am attempting to find relevant statistics.

As for the remarks that I've deliberately picked data from the credit crunch. Apologies for overlooking this fact, I simply pulled data from the end of the last Labour government to try to provide a comparison. I had no idea what I would find when I went looking and I have provided all of the data I found. Feel free to provide the same data for the period prior to the credit crunch for comparison.


Cuttooth wrote:I legitimately don’t know why you’d post this to try to back up your point. Child poverty is almost at a level not seen since before the last Labour government for one. It backs up the claims from earlier that more households in poverty are in fact in work.


Because I'm trying to be objective. I'm not hiding anything, just sharing what I find.

The silly neighbourhood vegetable.
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Tomous
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PostRe: Election 2021: Who did you vote for?
by Tomous » Thu May 13, 2021 4:06 pm

SillySprout wrote:
Tomous wrote:But you're really not engaging in a conversation or debate here so I'm out.


If providing proof of unemployment, taxes & earnings for comparison is not engaging, then I don't honestly know what is. By all means, provide evidence to counter the argument, but I am attempting to find relevant statistics.
.


Statistics have to be interpreted to be understood

You have been challenged on your interpretation with people explaining why. For example, you assumed unemployment being down meant millions were off benefits. People have brought up the point of zero hour contracts going up dramatically over the last decade.

Engaging would be responding to these points. You haven't.

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Green Gecko
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PostRe: Election 2021: Who did you vote for?
by Green Gecko » Thu May 13, 2021 4:12 pm

You have insisted that people consider and accept that other people have other views. Of course people generally accept that.

But is it then perhaps possible that there aren't any statistics to justify your views?

There aren't any statistics that explain your theory that you would have been better off if your mother didn't depend on benefits?

Is that possible?

Is it then possible that your voting intentions were informed along party lines, based on vague assertions of values and beliefs, which do not bear out the burden of evidence?

Might that have happened?

You are asking people to be open minded. You don't have to justify your ideas or decisions with data. But people can suspect that your ideas and decisions have no logical or credible basis. And that's OK.

It still makes people that claim benefits (especially in work or disability benefits or social care) feel crappy when you echo tory principles such as "working your way up the ladder by just working harder", though. This is a reality you're probably going to need to get used to if your ideologies are moving towards conservatism.

I am eligible for those benefits and who's to say I have not worked hard enough. Most of those benefits are non income contingent and awarded regardless of work. I have provided testimony of deeply unfair and unstable employment despite working hard to get a degree and to get those jobs repeatedly. I have had a really tough time even claiming the benefits I was always entitled to because I was systematically awarded the wrong amounts owing to tory policies multiple times.

What is your response to those experiences?

You can quote statistics or you can talk to people.

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OrangeRKN
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PostRe: Election 2021: Who did you vote for?
by OrangeRKN » Thu May 13, 2021 4:54 pm

SillySprout wrote:The short is, [the poverty rate has] gone from 21% to 22%.


So what we've established is that a decrease in unemployment under a Conservative government hasn't led to a reduction in poverty.

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Sprouty
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PostRe: Election 2021: Who did you vote for?
by Sprouty » Thu May 13, 2021 5:00 pm

I'm going to post one last comment on this issue, because I genuinely can't keep up with all of the quotes and I'm being painted as having opinions that I don't hold. These are my genuine thoughts. If anyone wants to engage further, please PM me. I'm sorry that I haven't replied to every comment, but the tone is starting to get too heated and I think it's starting to go beyond healthy debate. I'm sure I'll get some stick for this, but there we go.

I believe that the benefit system in the UK is an absolute necessity. As a society, we have a duty to support those who need help for reasons outside of their control. This can range from having just lost a job to needing full time care. It's the right thing to do and it's appalling that some people are not given the support that they need, especially the most vulnerable. We have a political system which is divided down social lines, which I don't believe works in modern society. I don't think that any political party has the answers to modern problems. We get to vote for one party, which will go on and make thousands of decisions that impact our lives. I don't agree with every policy held by every party, but at the end of the day, I get to pick one every few years and hope for the best.

I believe that the Tory party are heartless, self preserving and corrupt. The ace up their sleeve is that they seem best at running the economy and yes, I do think that they have got more people into employment than Labour would have over the period they have been in power. We can all provide evidence to back our points, but nobody can prove that either way as we can't test the theory, so feel free to disagree. I believe that employment does improve people's life chances. Of course that is not the case for everyone. We are talking about a population of over 60 million people, so there is a level of generalising here.

There are people who are on benefits because they have not found employment, but are able to work. We need to pay these people enough to live and help them find good quality work through training and upskilling where necessary. This helps those people directly and helps the wider society. I think Labour do better in paying these people enough to live, whilst Tories have done a better job in upskilling and creating more opportunities for work, though of course there has also been the rise of poorly quality jobs such as zero hour contract and gig economy jobs which are borderline illegal in my opinion & a separate issue for debate. This is my opinion based on experience and the data I have seen appears to back this up. Neither have the right answer. So yes, I have moved towards the right on this issue, but that doesn't mean that I fully support Tories on the matter, just that if I could pick part of their policy, such as the Apprentice Levy Scheme, or raising the base point for tax on earnings, I would add them to the parts of Labour policy that I agree with, but unfortunately I can not do that. Breaking the generational cycle of poverty is so important and work is the best route out of it.

We also have those who are on benefits because they are unable to work. We must support these people. Enough money to live a comfortable life is part of the parcel, but it may also include social care needs among other things. I've shared two examples where this has not been up to scratch from my own experience and my comments have not really focused on these people, but this is the most important part of the benefit system. What is government here for, if not to help those most in need? The current system for PIP is too harsh. People who genuinely need help are unable to get it and this costs lives. The means tested system is too focused on what is essentially an algorithm, a set of criteria somebody has sat in an office and typed out without actually meeting anyone who goes through the process. It needs reform.

We also have people in work and on benefits. This is not right. Large organisations need to pay their taxes. The rich need to pay their taxes. No party has ever got close to fixing this issue and I hope that one day, this gets solved. I've got my eye on Biden's proposed international minimum tax laws & I hope they have the desired outcome, though I don't have much faith that it will. People may believe a manifesto, but I don't tend to believe much of what we are told by political parties, though I will attempt to find the truth somewhere and when it's my turn to vote, vote for who I think will do the best job.

In the last general election I voted for Labour based on one issue, which was my own experience of the state of our hospitals. I took a lot of stick from some people for that, but I stand by it. Our hospitals need so much investment. Spend any amount of time in them and you'll see how under staffed they are, and this is pre pandemic. In the next general election, I highly doubt that I will vote Tory, but I'll decide when the time comes. One thing is for sure, if the promised 40 hospitals are not built, they're immediately crossed off as an option in the next general election.

Thank you for everyone who has debated with me. There have been many valid comments on a very complex issue and we should never allow our political parties to reduce it to a simplistic issue, because it is complex and a different solution is needed for different people, but national politics tries to create a policy which works for the entire population and it rarely works for everyone. I've given three examples, but of course it is much more complex than that. Politics is such a heated area, it's so complex and we all see people through our own eyes and experience. But people are generally much more caring than you think, even if they believe in a different route to take, they probably believe in arriving at the same destination.

The silly neighbourhood vegetable.
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DML
Member
Joined in 2008

PostRe: Election 2021: Who did you vote for?
by DML » Thu May 13, 2021 5:08 pm

I believe that the Tory party are heartless, self preserving and corrupt. The ace up their sleeve is that they seem best at running the economy and yes, I do think that they have got more people into employment than Labour would have over the period they have been in power.


That's where it all falls down for me. You wait until this pandemic is over. Zero hour contracts have cooked the books for years. Theres absolutely no way the economy is healthier now, and thats BEFORE Covid.

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Green Gecko
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PostRe: Election 2021: Who did you vote for?
by Green Gecko » Thu May 13, 2021 5:29 pm

OK cool. I appreciate you can't and won't address my points and it is through that which you "paint" yourself into a corner.

I don't believe there is any evidence the tories are going to improve access to social care or disability support (which they have systematically reduced to the extent thousands of people have literally died afterwards ), fund hospitals (which they have systematically underfunded and cut since being in power), effectively tax the super rich or global corporations (which they have done seemingly nothing about, almost certainly in my opinion because the Conservatives are a party largely topped up by members and donors in the same higher income brackets). The tories reduced people's employments rights and ability to fight back against their employer if they were unfairly dismissed, with regards to keeping people in work, surely that is problematic if this is all self betterment and working harder to escape poverty.

Some of those comments are highly evocative of "the only way to improve the economy and the lives of people is through trade and working harder" thatcher ideology of the mid 80s. It has absolutely nothing to go with exploiting the workforce for profit, giving them no job security whatsoever no matter how hard they work (something the law and government can and won't do, in fact they have eroded those protections to favour businesses over people), and simply keeping the economic gains. Something I've experienced time and time again.

And that's the end of a fairly pointless discussion.

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Squinty
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PostRe: Election 2021: Who did you vote for?
by Squinty » Thu May 13, 2021 6:00 pm

SillySprout wrote:Thank you for everyone who has debated with me.


Same to you.

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shy guy 64
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PostRe: Election 2021: Who did you vote for?
by shy guy 64 » Thu May 13, 2021 7:42 pm

ive lost track

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Meep
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PostRe: Election 2021: Who did you vote for?
by Meep » Thu May 13, 2021 8:37 pm

IMO, I do not see job creation is a goal of government. The goal is to improve living standards and eliminate poverty. More people in work is just a means to an end. If you boost employment but in-work poverty increases you may have actually achieved worse than nothing for your population.

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Ironhide
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PostRe: Election 2021: Who did you vote for?
by Ironhide » Thu May 13, 2021 9:37 pm

Meep wrote:IMO, I do not see job creation is a goal of government. The goal is to improve living standards and eliminate poverty. More people in work is just a means to an end. If you boost employment but in-work poverty increases you may have actually achieved worse than nothing for your population.


This, higher employment figures are worthless when those 'extra jobs' are zero hour contracts with inadequate wages which in a lot of cases leave families financially worse off than they were when receiving job seekers benefits.

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Hypes
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PostRe: Election 2021: Who did you vote for?
by Hypes » Thu May 13, 2021 11:14 pm

SillySprout wrote:In the next general election, I highly doubt that I will vote Tory, but I'll decide when the time comes. One thing is for sure, if the promised 40 hospitals are not built, they're immediately crossed off as an option in the next general election.

Guess you're not voting Tory then :toot:

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Balladeer
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PostRe: Election 2021: Who did you vote for?
by Balladeer » Thu May 13, 2021 11:24 pm

Hypes wrote:
SillySprout wrote:In the next general election, I highly doubt that I will vote Tory, but I'll decide when the time comes. One thing is for sure, if the promised 40 hospitals are not built, they're immediately crossed off as an option in the next general election.

Guess you're not voting Tory then :toot:

In before they cancel existing projects then restart them/include new wards or other add-ons/go the whole hog and count existing hospitals.

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VlaSoul
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PostRe: Election 2021: Who did you vote for?
by VlaSoul » Fri May 14, 2021 10:55 am

I feel like the initial fallacy was made on a correlation that doesn't really address the underlying causes; which is to say that there is a history of generational poverty that seems to coincide with the benefits system. The reason for this is not the conception of benefits itself, but the system in which it exists, which is global liberal capitalism. The benefits systems in the west, when combined with the poor access to education, is designed to not fix poverty/class disparity itself, but to create a suitable standard of living for the lowest economic classes of people, while making sure these people still exist. Poverty in this country by and large is not begging on the street, it is families where the parents work in the gig economy for minimum wage and still have to get social assisstance in order to live at all. There is little room to move up the class system here because it is not designed in this manner.

The solution to this is of course not to cut benefits, because that very clearly forces people into poverty while in full time employement which for a developed country in the 21st century is entirely unnacceptable. Slashing benefits 1) forces people who may not even be suited to work into shitty deadend jobs that they'll never get an oppourtunity to leave 2) pushes the responsibility of providing for the poor onto charity. The issue with charity can be very clearly seen in the global south, where often massive poor communities rely on western charity in order to reach something close to a bare minimum standard for human living, and yet we see little change in their conditions as the years roll by. This is because direct investment on a much higher level is needed to create and maintain the neccessary conditions for higher SOL, and charity is only able to alleviate some symptoms of poverty as opposed to fixing poverty as a whole.

Slashing benefits and making poor people work is strawberry floating stupid, because you're going to end up creating a new sub class of people who live like the poor did in Victorian england; overworked, poor, without access to progression, and oppressed.

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Grumpy David
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PostRe: Election 2021: Who did you vote for?
by Grumpy David » Fri May 14, 2021 12:41 pm

twitter.com/SophiaSleigh/status/1393145624942546946



Tories, Greens and Lib Dems form unlikely alliance on London Assembly

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/tories-greens-lib-dems-alliance-london-assembly-b935170.html

This isn't the rainbow coalition I expected!

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Qikz
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PostRe: Election 2021: Who did you vote for?
by Qikz » Fri May 14, 2021 12:44 pm

strawberry floating insane, I can understand the Lib Dems because they're idiots but how on earth would the GREENS work with the Tories. Jesus christ.

The Watching Artist wrote:I feel so inept next to Qikz...
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OrangeRKN
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PostRe: Election 2021: Who did you vote for?
by OrangeRKN » Fri May 14, 2021 1:08 pm

Reading the article it seems more like Labour's fault for refusing to participate, and instead they deliberately want to spin it as the Greens and Lib Dems siding with the tories rather than the intention of dividing committee chairs by vote share across all parties.

The three political parties said they tried to secure a four party agreement for chairing committees based around the proportion of seats each group has on the London Assembly.

Their plan would have allowed Labour to chair five committees, the Conservatives four, Greens one and the Liberal Democrats one in the first year of this administration.

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BID0
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PostRe: Election 2021: Who did you vote for?
by BID0 » Fri May 14, 2021 1:09 pm

Qikz wrote:strawberry floating insane, I can understand the Lib Dems because they're idiots but how on earth would the GREENS work with the Tories. Jesus christ.

Because they get to lead more issues than they would have otherwise. Labour decided not to participate, presumably because they wanted all or nothing and labour voters lost out as a result.


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