Epic vs Apple

Anything to do with games at all.
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Sprouty
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PostRe: Epic Games takes legal action against Apple over App Store policies
by Sprouty » Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:51 pm

jiggles wrote:
Knoyleo wrote:
JT986M2 wrote:
Trelliz wrote:
Rocsteady wrote:Great video.

I see lots of other app publishers are coming out in support. I know nothing about Epic, but the stranglehold Apple and Google have in this market is incredibly unhealthy.


So is the exploitation of children to keep them spending loads of money to keep buying the latest fortnite skins, so I'm not sure who is the lesser evil here.


Exploitation is a bit far. Epic are no different than the majority of studios pushing in-game purchases these days. It's the nature of the gaming world these days, unfortunately. However, unlike the others, Epic are using their 'power' to push for change. They take a far smaller cut in their own store so they are in a way more on-side with developers. At least they are trying to change things (even though it benefits them) I guess.

It's no less exploitative just because everyone's at it.

Someone needs to go after Apple and their tax simply for existing on their operating system, but the way Epic are positing this as Apple just don't want you to enjoy cool fun Fortnite, they're the big bad corporation, is very much spider-man-meme.jpg.


I absolutely wouldn’t class Fortnite’s skins and dances as exploitative at all. They’re purely cosmetic, in a game that’s free to play, and with no randomness or anything. You see the item you want for sale in the shop and you buy it. Just because they’re selling an obscene amount of them due to it being the “in thing” doesn’t make it exploitation. In my mind it’s no different than when Coca Cola yo-yos were big for a year when I was young.


I know people who have spent hundreds on these things. I don't get the appeal, but you're right, it's not really exploitation, really just accepting money from people who see value in these things. Where children are buying them, the parents really need to be paying more attention!

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PostRe: Epic Games takes legal action against Apple over App Store policies
by Jenuall » Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:14 pm

SillySprout wrote:
jiggles wrote:
Knoyleo wrote:
JT986M2 wrote:
Trelliz wrote:
Rocsteady wrote:Great video.

I see lots of other app publishers are coming out in support. I know nothing about Epic, but the stranglehold Apple and Google have in this market is incredibly unhealthy.


So is the exploitation of children to keep them spending loads of money to keep buying the latest fortnite skins, so I'm not sure who is the lesser evil here.


Exploitation is a bit far. Epic are no different than the majority of studios pushing in-game purchases these days. It's the nature of the gaming world these days, unfortunately. However, unlike the others, Epic are using their 'power' to push for change. They take a far smaller cut in their own store so they are in a way more on-side with developers. At least they are trying to change things (even though it benefits them) I guess.

It's no less exploitative just because everyone's at it.

Someone needs to go after Apple and their tax simply for existing on their operating system, but the way Epic are positing this as Apple just don't want you to enjoy cool fun Fortnite, they're the big bad corporation, is very much spider-man-meme.jpg.


I absolutely wouldn’t class Fortnite’s skins and dances as exploitative at all. They’re purely cosmetic, in a game that’s free to play, and with no randomness or anything. You see the item you want for sale in the shop and you buy it. Just because they’re selling an obscene amount of them due to it being the “in thing” doesn’t make it exploitation. In my mind it’s no different than when Coca Cola yo-yos were big for a year when I was young.


I know people who have spent hundreds on these things. I don't get the appeal, but you're right, it's not really exploitation, really just accepting money from people who see value in these things. Where children are buying them, the parents really need to be paying more attention!

It's exploitative in the sense that it is taking advantage of know social patterns such as peer pressure that are heightened in younger demographics.

The items may be purely cosmetic and offer no specific advantage in game but kids who don't shell out for the latest gooseberry fool hairstyle or dance or whatever else they offer will end up suffering within their peer group. Kids can be complete dicks at times and there is huge pressure on those who can't really afford it to "keep up" with others in buying stuff for fear of being bullied if they don't. Epic getting rich off the back of that is not a good look.

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Harry Bizzle
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PostRe: Epic Games takes legal action against Apple over App Store policies
by Harry Bizzle » Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:20 pm

Jenuall wrote:
SillySprout wrote:
jiggles wrote:
Knoyleo wrote:
JT986M2 wrote:
Trelliz wrote:
Rocsteady wrote:Great video.

I see lots of other app publishers are coming out in support. I know nothing about Epic, but the stranglehold Apple and Google have in this market is incredibly unhealthy.


So is the exploitation of children to keep them spending loads of money to keep buying the latest fortnite skins, so I'm not sure who is the lesser evil here.


Exploitation is a bit far. Epic are no different than the majority of studios pushing in-game purchases these days. It's the nature of the gaming world these days, unfortunately. However, unlike the others, Epic are using their 'power' to push for change. They take a far smaller cut in their own store so they are in a way more on-side with developers. At least they are trying to change things (even though it benefits them) I guess.

It's no less exploitative just because everyone's at it.

Someone needs to go after Apple and their tax simply for existing on their operating system, but the way Epic are positing this as Apple just don't want you to enjoy cool fun Fortnite, they're the big bad corporation, is very much spider-man-meme.jpg.


I absolutely wouldn’t class Fortnite’s skins and dances as exploitative at all. They’re purely cosmetic, in a game that’s free to play, and with no randomness or anything. You see the item you want for sale in the shop and you buy it. Just because they’re selling an obscene amount of them due to it being the “in thing” doesn’t make it exploitation. In my mind it’s no different than when Coca Cola yo-yos were big for a year when I was young.


I know people who have spent hundreds on these things. I don't get the appeal, but you're right, it's not really exploitation, really just accepting money from people who see value in these things. Where children are buying them, the parents really need to be paying more attention!

It's exploitative in the sense that it is taking advantage of know social patterns such as peer pressure that are heightened in younger demographics.

The items may be purely cosmetic and offer no specific advantage in game but kids who don't shell out for the latest gooseberry fool hairstyle or dance or whatever else they offer will end up suffering within their peer group. Kids can be complete dicks at times and there is huge pressure on those who can't really afford it to "keep up" with others in buying stuff for fear of being bullied if they don't. Epic getting rich off the back of that is not a good look.


When has this ever not been the case with kids toys? They've always been designed to be the talked about thing in the playground, be collectible, etc. What are shiny pokemon cards are for, if not to be more desirable?

Last edited by Harry Bizzle on Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Photek
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PostRe: Epic Games takes legal action against Apple over App Store policies
by Photek » Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:20 pm

SillySprout wrote:I know people who have spent hundreds on these things. I don't get the appeal, but you're right, it's not really exploitation, really just accepting money from people who see value in these things. Where children are buying them, the parents really need to be paying more attention!

I have bought my daughter numerous Minecraft skins well gave her €5 worth of coins for her to virtually spend and her own Parrot in Sea of Thieves and I didn't think it was an exploit, it wasn't a loot box, she got what she wanted.

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PostRe: Epic Games takes legal action against Apple over App Store policies
by Jenuall » Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:23 pm

Harry Bizzle wrote:
Jenuall wrote:
SillySprout wrote:
jiggles wrote:
Knoyleo wrote:
JT986M2 wrote:
Trelliz wrote:
Rocsteady wrote:Great video.

I see lots of other app publishers are coming out in support. I know nothing about Epic, but the stranglehold Apple and Google have in this market is incredibly unhealthy.


So is the exploitation of children to keep them spending loads of money to keep buying the latest fortnite skins, so I'm not sure who is the lesser evil here.


Exploitation is a bit far. Epic are no different than the majority of studios pushing in-game purchases these days. It's the nature of the gaming world these days, unfortunately. However, unlike the others, Epic are using their 'power' to push for change. They take a far smaller cut in their own store so they are in a way more on-side with developers. At least they are trying to change things (even though it benefits them) I guess.

It's no less exploitative just because everyone's at it.

Someone needs to go after Apple and their tax simply for existing on their operating system, but the way Epic are positing this as Apple just don't want you to enjoy cool fun Fortnite, they're the big bad corporation, is very much spider-man-meme.jpg.


I absolutely wouldn’t class Fortnite’s skins and dances as exploitative at all. They’re purely cosmetic, in a game that’s free to play, and with no randomness or anything. You see the item you want for sale in the shop and you buy it. Just because they’re selling an obscene amount of them due to it being the “in thing” doesn’t make it exploitation. In my mind it’s no different than when Coca Cola yo-yos were big for a year when I was young.


I know people who have spent hundreds on these things. I don't get the appeal, but you're right, it's not really exploitation, really just accepting money from people who see value in these things. Where children are buying them, the parents really need to be paying more attention!

It's exploitative in the sense that it is taking advantage of know social patterns such as peer pressure that are heightened in younger demographics.

The items may be purely cosmetic and offer no specific advantage in game but kids who don't shell out for the latest gooseberry fool hairstyle or dance or whatever else they offer will end up suffering within their peer group. Kids can be complete dicks at times and there is huge pressure on those who can't really afford it to "keep up" with others in buying stuff for fear of being bullied if they don't. Epic getting rich off the back of that is not a good look.


When has this ever not been the case with kids toys? They've always been designed to be the talked about thing in the playground, be collectible, etc. What are shiny pokemon cards are for, if not to be more desirable?

Yes and those things are exploitative as well. This is the same behaviours but being taken advantage of to a far greater extent.

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Photek
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PostRe: Epic Games takes legal action against Apple and Google over store policies
by Photek » Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:25 pm

Guess I've been exploited then. :(

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Harry Bizzle
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PostRe: Epic Games takes legal action against Apple over App Store policies
by Harry Bizzle » Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:34 pm

Jenuall wrote:
Harry Bizzle wrote:
Jenuall wrote:
SillySprout wrote:
jiggles wrote:
Knoyleo wrote:
JT986M2 wrote:
Trelliz wrote:
Rocsteady wrote:Great video.

I see lots of other app publishers are coming out in support. I know nothing about Epic, but the stranglehold Apple and Google have in this market is incredibly unhealthy.


So is the exploitation of children to keep them spending loads of money to keep buying the latest fortnite skins, so I'm not sure who is the lesser evil here.


Exploitation is a bit far. Epic are no different than the majority of studios pushing in-game purchases these days. It's the nature of the gaming world these days, unfortunately. However, unlike the others, Epic are using their 'power' to push for change. They take a far smaller cut in their own store so they are in a way more on-side with developers. At least they are trying to change things (even though it benefits them) I guess.

It's no less exploitative just because everyone's at it.

Someone needs to go after Apple and their tax simply for existing on their operating system, but the way Epic are positing this as Apple just don't want you to enjoy cool fun Fortnite, they're the big bad corporation, is very much spider-man-meme.jpg.


I absolutely wouldn’t class Fortnite’s skins and dances as exploitative at all. They’re purely cosmetic, in a game that’s free to play, and with no randomness or anything. You see the item you want for sale in the shop and you buy it. Just because they’re selling an obscene amount of them due to it being the “in thing” doesn’t make it exploitation. In my mind it’s no different than when Coca Cola yo-yos were big for a year when I was young.


I know people who have spent hundreds on these things. I don't get the appeal, but you're right, it's not really exploitation, really just accepting money from people who see value in these things. Where children are buying them, the parents really need to be paying more attention!

It's exploitative in the sense that it is taking advantage of know social patterns such as peer pressure that are heightened in younger demographics.

The items may be purely cosmetic and offer no specific advantage in game but kids who don't shell out for the latest gooseberry fool hairstyle or dance or whatever else they offer will end up suffering within their peer group. Kids can be complete dicks at times and there is huge pressure on those who can't really afford it to "keep up" with others in buying stuff for fear of being bullied if they don't. Epic getting rich off the back of that is not a good look.


When has this ever not been the case with kids toys? They've always been designed to be the talked about thing in the playground, be collectible, etc. What are shiny pokemon cards are for, if not to be more desirable?

Yes and those things are exploitative as well. This is the same behaviours but being taken advantage of to a far greater extent.


I agree there's certainly an element of that but if you follow that line of logic to its conclusion, all non-essential products which are advertised or thought of as being desirable are inherently exploitative.

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Lex-Man
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PostRe: Epic Games takes legal action against Apple and Google over store policies
by Lex-Man » Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:43 pm

I guess with Fortnite you're sort of always in the toy shop. The system Epic have created is basically one long advert for their products.

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Harry Bizzle
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PostRe: Epic Games takes legal action against Apple and Google over store policies
by Harry Bizzle » Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:46 pm

I remember watching Pokemon cartoons before school, trading the cards in school and playing the game like mad as well. The rich kids had way more cards than the rest of us and that sucked. I don't think anyone gets as upset with Nintendo. They've even put loot boxes in Pokemon Go - at least Epic don't use those kinds of gambling-lite mechanics.

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PostRe: Epic Games takes legal action against Apple and Google over store policies
by Mafro » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:05 pm

Screw the lot of them. Yes, Apple and Google need taking down from their high towers. Yes, Epic Games has a point as it sues to keep Fortnite on mobile devices. But absolutely all of them are as bad as each other.

Epic Games is currently trying to mobilize fans into an embarrassing sort of freedom force. The company deliberately broke terms of service with Apple in order to manipulate a situation in which Fortnite's removed from the App Store and Epic positions itself as a rebel icon.

Fortnite started trying to see virtual currency directly, ignoring the mandatory payment processes that give Apple and Google their cuts on iOS and Android. It's a gigantic fight over money that Epic has more or less staged, and while Apple and Google take huge cuts from developers, there is no way Epic should be seen as a hero - especially with the tasteless way in which it's performing said "heroics."



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Harry Bizzle
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PostRe: Epic Games takes legal action against Apple and Google over store policies
by Harry Bizzle » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:11 pm

Jim Sterling giving others lessons on taste is certainly an interesting development.

I don't think anyone over the age of 15 is going to see Epic as a hero here, but their goals seem to overlap with our interests, so I don't see any problem in saying that instead of crossing our arms, rolling our eyes and saying they're all as bad as each other.

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PostRe: Epic Games takes legal action against Apple and Google over store policies
by Jordan UK » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:24 pm

Photek wrote:Guess I've been exploited then. :(


I think the difference in your examples are the fact that these dlc are not getting constantly outmoded. Epic are deliberately creating a racket where children feel pressured into buying these dlc. I work in a school and I quite often hear children being teased if they’re using a default skin or dance. They’ve made billions off this sort of pressure.

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PostRe: Epic Games takes legal action against Apple and Google over store policies
by Photek » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:31 pm

Jordan UK wrote:
Photek wrote:Guess I've been exploited then. :(


I think the difference in your examples are the fact that these dlc are not getting constantly outmoded. Epic are deliberately creating a racket where children feel pressured into buying these dlc. I work in a school and I quite often hear children being teased if they’re using a default skin or dance. They’ve made billions off this sort of pressure.

I was being facetious sorry. Yeah, they do deal in 'limited' content which is worse.

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PostRe: Epic Games takes legal action against Apple and Google over store policies
by Trelliz » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:43 pm

The fact that they had a game-engine trailer for their lawsuit, ready to go as soon as this kicked off, speaks volumes.

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PostRe: Epic Games takes legal action against Apple and Google over store policies
by Wedgie » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:11 pm

You have to wonder what cut that Sony and MicroSoft get from it as well? Seems to cheaper than Apple/Google store?

One question: can you play it via their own store? If so, are they charging the SAME amount before all this crap starts? Let's say on the Apple App Store, it's £10 for in game currency, is it the same price they charge on the Epic store?

If so, Epic is just spatting out their dummies out of their pram, cos they want that 30% to go in their pockets. It's nothing to do with helping the players, but themselves

Epic can put in a disclaimer in game, that it's better to buy the stuff FROM their website, assuming that it's cross platform sign in process? Apple is also the same regarding some apps that offers the same services as their own apps. Kindle, you used to be able to buy books on the app, but Apple demanded they remove it cos they have their own Books store. You can't buy amazon prime movies in app as well.

It's pure greed from all parties involved. strawberry float them all.

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PostRe: Epic Games takes legal action against Apple and Google over store policies
by Harry Bizzle » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:19 pm

Trelliz wrote:The fact that they had a game-engine trailer for their lawsuit, ready to go as soon as this kicked off, speaks volumes.


I think once you look past the cringe factor, it’s entirely reasonable to make sure you’re ready to go when you try to take on a trillion dollar company, especially when you’re intentionally putting a huge revenue source on the line to do it.

They clearly want to get public opinion on their side as their legal case is probably shaky at best.

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PostRe: Epic Games takes legal action against Apple and Google over store policies
by Harry Bizzle » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:22 pm

Wedgie wrote:Epic can put in a disclaimer in game, that it's better to buy the stuff FROM their website, assuming that it's cross platform sign in process?


This is a breach of App Store policy and will get your app removed.

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PostRe: Epic Games takes legal action against Apple and Google over store policies
by OrangeRKN » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:26 pm

Harry Bizzle wrote:Jim Sterling giving others lessons on taste is certainly an interesting development.

I don't think anyone over the age of 15 is going to see Epic as a hero here, but their goals seem to overlap with our interests, so I don't see any problem in saying that instead of crossing our arms, rolling our eyes and saying they're all as bad as each other.


The point is that it isn't a choice to side with one or the other, or even a three way choice between siding with Epic, siding with Apple or crossed-arm eye-rolling indifference. We should want Apple to lose their anti-consumer monopoly, and we should want Epic to get flak for their manipulative marketing. We shouldn't blindly support either and we shouldn't dismiss them for being "as bad as each other" otherwise.

You're right that Epic succesfully challenging Apple's policy here would be a good thing, but that doesn't make Epic immune to criticism of their approach regardless.

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PostRe: Epic Games takes legal action against Apple and Google over store policies
by Wedgie » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:33 pm

Harry Bizzle wrote:
Wedgie wrote:Epic can put in a disclaimer in game, that it's better to buy the stuff FROM their website, assuming that it's cross platform sign in process?


This is a breach of App Store policy and will get your app removed.


So Epic can't advertise their own website? They could put in a storefront on it and people will see it?

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Denster wrote:My phone messaged me yesterday after i'd encouraged him to download and play the RESi demo.


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PostRe: Epic Games takes legal action against Apple over App Store policies
by That's not a growth » Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:55 pm

Corazon de Leon wrote:
That's not a growth wrote:
Jenuall wrote:Apple taking a cut of initial sale of an app makes sense, but getting 30% of every transaction within that app after purchase is a bit insane really


While I generally agree with this, my thought then goes "what would then stop them to make their apps free, but then an IAP to 'unlock' the full app" - and then Apple have built all this expensive infrastructure which is providing value but not getting paid for it.

Also it would set a bad president, if stores are forced to be run at a loss it would guarantee this monopoly continues since the barrier to entry would be too high if the only people who can run a store are those who can take the hit.

Getting 30% of all on going payments feels too much - especially for something like Spotify or Netflix that has regular payments. Perhaps it should be similar to credit card processing fees for IAP, which is just a few percent I think.


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:lol: strawberry floating hell.

jiggles wrote:
That's not a growth wrote:
Jenuall wrote:Apple taking a cut of initial sale of an app makes sense, but getting 30% of every transaction within that app after purchase is a bit insane really


While I generally agree with this, my thought then goes "what would then stop them to make their apps free, but then an IAP to 'unlock' the full app" - and then Apple have built all this expensive infrastructure which is providing value but not getting paid for it.

Also it would set a bad president, if stores are forced to be run at a loss it would guarantee this monopoly continues since the barrier to entry would be too high if the only people who can run a store are those who can take the hit.

Getting 30% of all on going payments feels too much - especially for something like Spotify or Netflix that has regular payments. Perhaps it should be similar to credit card processing fees for IAP, which is just a few percent I think.


But I can open any gambling or shopping app on my iPhone and deposit funds into my account or buy anything (including digital goods) through the app using any payment method under the sun and Apple doesn’t get a penny.

Yet, if I’m instead looking to put Vbucks into my Fortnite account, I *have* to pay for them through the App Store.

Apple block buying books through the Kindle app because they have their own bookstore, and even though I can open the Amazon app and buy anything, I *still* can’t buy kindle books on it because they block it.

Similarly, I can’t buy films or TV shows on the Google Play Movies & TV app because they have their own store for that, but I can open the YouTube app and buy them there (which is literally the same service!), but the catch is I have to buy it as an IAP, so Apple get paid again.

And in both these cases I can just open the
Safari app and buy what I want there without Apple seeing any of it.


Yeah, I agree - I think I was thinking of things too narrowly since I don't really use IAP systems. I was thinking that Apple would have set up some sort of system that facilitates the transaction, which would require maintenance and other costs to run. I was essentially thinking of them as paypal in that transaction.

But if they're not involved at all, and even go as far to block competition then I don't think they have a leg to stand on.

Essentially my stance is, if Apple are providing tools and infrastructure that costs them money or resources to provide a service then they it's reasonable for them to find a way to make money, otherwise it just doesn't make sense. Such as the app store it's self. That must be well expensive to run.

Sure, there should be a discussion around if 30% is too high. And also how you can only load apps from the app store. But they're separate to that point above, and I don't know where I firmly stand on these currently (I'm against both, but I have no strawberry floating clue what the alternatives should be, or an idea of the full implication involved).


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