Extinction Rebellion - I'm extremely sorry for the inconvenience

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Moggy
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PostRe: Extinction Rebellion
by Moggy » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:47 am

I think there is a difference between what XR want, what is likely to happen and what is actually possible.

They want us to be carbon neutral in greenhouse gases by 2025. That’s a great aim and so it’s hard to disagree with that as a desire. It is never going to happen though, the government and big business will not let it happen. Is it even possible? It seems a little too close a target date to me, as Bido said though if we had done this 20 years ago then it wouldn’t be any near as big a challenge.

But I am not sure it matters. If XR manage to get some changes through and emissions are cut by 30% or 50% or even 90%, they have technically “failed” to get their target through, but would have succeeded in making a big difference.

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PostRe: Extinction Rebellion
by Hime » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:48 am

Tafdolphin wrote:
Hime wrote:
BID0 wrote:
Hime wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:
Hime wrote:Anyway, the point was that XR should present a list of achievable goals to give themselves a bit more credibility.


See I don't agree with this.

They're a protest group whose aim is to highlight the impending climate emergency/catastrophe. They are not a policy making think-tank. The governments of the world already have access to countless reports and bodies and research groups who are coming up with ways to combat climate change but they are not being heeded. XR's goal is to make governments act on the information they already have.

So again then, what is the desired outcome of the protests? The PM could just say something along the lines of "We're doubling or efforts to greatly reduce the UK's carbon emissions by 2030". Is that enough?

I know it's not the job of protestors to do the governments job for them but it's such an impossible situation. What can the government realistically do that will have a meaningful impact and not be seen as eroding people's civil liberties?

https://rebellion.earth/the-truth/demands/

Cool. Again, I'm not disagreeing with anyone and fully support any and all action against climate change. It's just that we hear over and over of the main causes and very few realistic, achievable solutions. That doesn't mean I'm saying we should do nothing but maybe a group as passionate as XR full of educated people could get i some ideas out there?


Again, I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of what XR is. The ideas are out there. XR just want them enacted.

What would they like enacted? Which ideas? Is the government expected to ground flights, ban cars and meat, stop people buying clothes? If the solution to the problems are out there why aren't XR putting them out there for the world to see?

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PostRe: Extinction Rebellion
by Tafdolphin » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:52 am

Hime wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:
Hime wrote:
BID0 wrote:
Hime wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:
Hime wrote:Anyway, the point was that XR should present a list of achievable goals to give themselves a bit more credibility.


See I don't agree with this.

They're a protest group whose aim is to highlight the impending climate emergency/catastrophe. They are not a policy making think-tank. The governments of the world already have access to countless reports and bodies and research groups who are coming up with ways to combat climate change but they are not being heeded. XR's goal is to make governments act on the information they already have.

So again then, what is the desired outcome of the protests? The PM could just say something along the lines of "We're doubling or efforts to greatly reduce the UK's carbon emissions by 2030". Is that enough?

I know it's not the job of protestors to do the governments job for them but it's such an impossible situation. What can the government realistically do that will have a meaningful impact and not be seen as eroding people's civil liberties?

https://rebellion.earth/the-truth/demands/

Cool. Again, I'm not disagreeing with anyone and fully support any and all action against climate change. It's just that we hear over and over of the main causes and very few realistic, achievable solutions. That doesn't mean I'm saying we should do nothing but maybe a group as passionate as XR full of educated people could get i some ideas out there?


Again, I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of what XR is. The ideas are out there. XR just want them enacted.

What would they like enacted? Which ideas? Is the government expected to ground flights, ban cars and meat, stop people buying clothes? If the solution to the problems are out there why aren't XR putting them out there for the world to see?


Apparently I'm getting a reputation for this but I feel we're going in circles here and I don't want to up the tension in this generally well measured thread.

XR are a protest group. They protest. Their goals are to get the government to act to save the planet by enacting specific, disseminated advice from groups like the IPCC. It's not their job, as it were, to preach methodology it's their job to highlight the lack of governmental oversight on systems that are literally killing the planet. That's what they're doing.

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Hime
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PostRe: Extinction Rebellion
by Hime » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:57 am

Moggy wrote:I think there is a difference between what XR want, what is likely to happen and what is actually possible.

They want us to be carbon neutral in greenhouse gases by 2025. That’s a great aim and so it’s hard to disagree with that as a desire. It is never going to happen though, the government and big business will not let it happen. Is it even possible? It seems a little too close a target date to me, as Bido said though if we had done this 20 years ago then it wouldn’t be any near as big a challenge.

But I am not sure it matters. If XR manage to get some changes through and emissions are cut by 30% or 50% or even 90%, they have technically “failed” to get their target through, but would have succeeded in making a big difference.

Which is what I'm getting at. Going carbon neutral by 2025/2030 - impossible. Banning the unnecessary use of plastics, tax breaks on electric vehicles and solar panels, incentives to encourage purchasing habits of sustainable clothes and food - achievable. All with more long term goals to continue reducing the UK's carbon footprint.

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PostRe: Extinction Rebellion
by Lex-Man » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:02 am

Hime wrote:
Moggy wrote:I think there is a difference between what XR want, what is likely to happen and what is actually possible.

They want us to be carbon neutral in greenhouse gases by 2025. That’s a great aim and so it’s hard to disagree with that as a desire. It is never going to happen though, the government and big business will not let it happen. Is it even possible? It seems a little too close a target date to me, as Bido said though if we had done this 20 years ago then it wouldn’t be any near as big a challenge.

But I am not sure it matters. If XR manage to get some changes through and emissions are cut by 30% or 50% or even 90%, they have technically “failed” to get their target through, but would have succeeded in making a big difference.

Which is what I'm getting at. Going carbon neutral by 2025/2030 - impossible. Banning the unnecessary use of plastics, tax breaks on electric vehicles and solar panels, incentives to encourage purchasing habits of sustainable clothes and food - achievable. All with more long term goals to continue reducing the UK's carbon footprint.


I think you should always overaim though it's better to aim for the impossible and be pushed back, than aim for the possible and be pushed back.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Extinction Rebellion
by Moggy » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:04 am

Hime wrote:
Moggy wrote:I think there is a difference between what XR want, what is likely to happen and what is actually possible.

They want us to be carbon neutral in greenhouse gases by 2025. That’s a great aim and so it’s hard to disagree with that as a desire. It is never going to happen though, the government and big business will not let it happen. Is it even possible? It seems a little too close a target date to me, as Bido said though if we had done this 20 years ago then it wouldn’t be any near as big a challenge.

But I am not sure it matters. If XR manage to get some changes through and emissions are cut by 30% or 50% or even 90%, they have technically “failed” to get their target through, but would have succeeded in making a big difference.

Which is what I'm getting at. Going carbon neutral by 2025/2030 - impossible. Banning the unnecessary use of plastics, tax breaks on electric vehicles and solar panels, incentives to encourage purchasing habits of sustainable clothes and food - achievable. All with more long term goals to continue reducing the UK's carbon footprint.


Right. Which I would imagine a lot of people at XR realise.

If they set the goal as “zero emissions by 2025” then they have a good chance of achieving some major reductions in pollution, even if their goal isn’t met.

If they set the goal as “2.5% reduction in emissions by 2025” then they have a good chance of achieving their goal, but major reductions in pollution hasn’t been met.

As Taf says though, it isn’t really up to XR to set out a comprehensive political and scientific policy that fixes climate change. XR are just a protest group. Their aims are unrealistic but what they might achieve can/will benefit us all.

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PostRe: Extinction Rebellion
by Karl_ » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:05 am

I think their demands are kind of clever actually. Hear me out here, I'm not just being contrarian.

Their first demand is for the UK to officially admit that the problem is an emergency, similar to say a war. This is important because it preps people to accept solutions they might find inconvenient, or ideologically difficult to swallow (e.g. the government taking control of businesses which are large polluters).

The second is to pledge to be carbon neutral by 2025, which is chosen deliberately to be slightly more ambitious than 2030, the actual deadline scientifically. The only way this happens is after a drastic change. These measures aren't going to be very popular, but they have to be seen as a necessary effort. Because of our pro-capitalist culture few people will vote for the "requisition billionaires' wealth and use it to build green infrastructure" party unless it is seen as an emergency measure.

Their third demand is essentially to allow the policies to be led be climate experts via a kind of binding climate conference. This ensures government policy is appropriate and goes far enough.

I get the argument that they should have a full manifesto, I don't necessarily think it would hurt, but the three demands do make a kind of coherent core between them imo.

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Hime
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PostRe: Extinction Rebellion
by Hime » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:17 am

I totally agree with you Karl, I've always been of the option that for things like renewable energy NIMBY's shouldn't even be part of the equation. If a location is deemed strategically significant for the renewable generation then it gets used.

The only problem with saying that the government will be incharge is that the other pressing political issue in the UK has shown them to be nothing more than incompetent, petulant, self interested helmets who are more worried about bickering with each other like children than compromising for the good of the country.

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PostRe: Extinction Rebellion
by Peter Crisp » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:20 pm

We can officially stop worrying about climate change everyone.

Vegan friendly space meat is here to solve all our earthly problems :toot: :toot: :toot: :toot: :toot: .

https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/49977898#

Awwww yeahhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

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Moggy
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PostRe: Extinction Rebellion
by Moggy » Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:23 pm



Maybe Johnson’s “crusty” comment was just him being mean about his dad?

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PostRe: Extinction Rebellion
by Preezy » Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:30 pm

Moggy wrote:Maybe Johnson’s “crusty” comment was just him being mean about his dad?

I remember when I was a young man in this family. I used to call the old man funny names - Iron Butt, Boner... once I even called him... Crusty - but there was always respect. I always knew where the line was drawn, and you just stepped over it, buddy-boy.

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Blue Eyes
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PostRe: Extinction Rebellion
by Blue Eyes » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:11 pm

Actual Facebook post on this subject.

Why are these people not at work? and how did they arrive in London by Coachs/cars.if they wish to save the planet half the peop[ole in the world will; be out of work. If these people want to save this planet.please tell us HOW.


Sod the planet. We need jobs! Jobs for working!

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PostRe: Extinction Rebellion
by Blue Eyes » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:33 pm


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PostRe: Extinction Rebellion
by OrangeRKN » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:51 pm

Blue Eyes wrote:https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1188102/Extinction-Rebellion-protest-diesel-generator-London-camp-climate-change-environment?fbclid=IwAR0gRm1lCuRAf_7xjZmsoa3jaZKhYCeU3mTwoE8Rqi4jeuF7E18lMIAX_m4

oh dear.


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Moggy
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PostRe: Extinction Rebellion
by Moggy » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:54 pm

Blue Eyes wrote:https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1188102/Extinction-Rebellion-protest-diesel-generator-London-camp-climate-change-environment?fbclid=IwAR0gRm1lCuRAf_7xjZmsoa3jaZKhYCeU3mTwoE8Rqi4jeuF7E18lMIAX_m4

oh dear.


I am not clicking it, but if the Express are criticising people then those people must be absolutely in the right.

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OrangeRKN
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PostRe: Extinction Rebellion
by OrangeRKN » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:57 pm

They're using a diesel generator, therefore the movement is flawed (and climate change presumably a hoax altogether)

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PostRe: Extinction Rebellion
by Preezy » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:59 pm

I knew they were all fakers, the vindication washes over me in an awesome wave :datass:

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Blue Eyes
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PostRe: Extinction Rebellion
by Blue Eyes » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:59 pm

OrangeRKN wrote:They're using a diesel generator, therefore the movement is flawed (and climate change presumably a hoax altogether)

Funnily enough the banana split who linked me that on facebook is a climate change denier.

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PostRe: Extinction Rebellion
by Kezzer » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:16 pm

I can't believe that public places in London don't have electrical outlets or USB chargers! :x

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PostRe: Extinction Rebellion
by Lex-Man » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:35 pm

There was a Metro article about Peirs Moron having a go at one of their organizers because she wouldn't confirm if she had a TV or not. Most people in comments were saying she was a hypocrite and should practise what she preached.

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