GRcade solves... Abortion

In this brand new series on a brand new forum, the intellectuals and intelligentsia of GRcade set out to solve some of the world's most pressing and controversial hotbed issues through the medium of debate, at the end of which we will have worked out a solution. For the first episode, we will attempt to solve.....


Abortion

It wasn't Wikipedia that wrote:An abortion is the removal or expulsion of an embryo or fetus from the uterus, resulting in or caused by its death. Induced abortion is the removal or expulsion of an embryo or fetus by medical, surgical, or other means at any point during human pregnancy for therapeutic or elective reasons. The approximate number of induced abortions performed worldwide in 2003 was 42 million, which declined from nearly 46 million in 1995.

The moral and legal aspects of abortion are subject to intense social debate in many parts of the world. Aspects of this debate can include the public health impact of unsafe or illegal abortion as well as legal abortion's effect upon crime rates, and the ramifications of sex-selective practices. Other debates include the abortion-breast cancer hypothesis, post-abortion syndrome, and fetal pain. Moral arguments often equate abortion to murder, or denial of abortion to oppression of women.

At the start of your post, please state whether you are Pro Life or Pro Choice, then offer your views and we can get a debate going about whether Abortion is right under any circumstances, and if it isn't, how do we solve the issue of unwanted or forced pregnancies?


Go.

This seems a bit too high brow for me.


What's the colour between blue and green?

I'll pick that colour.

Stu wrote:This seems a bit too high brow for me.


What's the colour between blue and green?

I'll pick that colour.

'high brow' shouldn't be words associated with a 'Mockmaster' topic.

Pro Choice

I certainly don't approve of abortion being used as a quick fix "Whoops, I got pregnant, never mind" device, but I think that women should be given the choice. After all, a child born into a family without love, or without prospects, is another nail in the coffin of social cohesion. If a foetus is "unwanted", then aborting it before it's recognisably a "person" is acceptable to me. More on this below.

So yes, I approve of abortion without being someone who loves it.

The cutoff point is the massive issue when it comes to abortion in this country. And, based on the stuff I've read and heard, I think that 20 weeks is the latest a woman should be allowed to abort a foetus.

Pro-choice , and I can just say how much I hate the term "pro-life". Everyone is pro-life but most people aren't pro forcing women to carry unwanted babies to term. Abortions wouldn't stop if the practice of abortion was banned and then you would get a load of Vera Drakes setting up and butchering pregnant women in back alleys. Most people who are against abortion are also against proper sex education in schools. That position shared by John McCain and his vice president is intelectually bankrupt.

Drunken_Master wrote:

Stu wrote:This seems a bit too high brow for me.


What's the colour between blue and green?

I'll pick that colour.

'high brow' shouldn't be words associated with a 'Mockmaster' topic.

It's a common misconception that I'm a bit of a joker. Look beyond the name and you'll see an incredibly high brow and serious individual.

Pro Life with a bit of choice.

I think abortions are too easy to get and people are too casual about making the decision.

I also think it's a disgrace you can still get an abortion up to 24 weeks, at that point it's no longer a lump of cells, it's a baby, it could be born and survive at that age, I'd take the abortion time right down to 10 weeks, you'd have missed two periods by then so should know that you were pregnant.

Shadow wrote:Pro Life with a bit of choice.

I think abortions are too easy to get and people are too casual about making the decision.

I also think it's a disgrace you can still get an abortion up to 24 weeks, at that point it's no longer a lump of cells, it's a baby, it could be born and survive at that age, I'd take the abortion time right down to 10 weeks, you'd have missed two periods by then so should know that you were pregnant.

Yeah, I'd agree with this, apart for some exceptions.

Say, if you found out there was a good chance your baby was to be born with severe disabilities, later, much later on in the pregnancy.

Shadow wrote:Pro Life with a bit of choice.

I think abortions are too easy to get and people are too casual about making the decision.

I also think it's a disgrace you can still get an abortion up to 24 weeks, at that point it's no longer a lump of cells, it's a baby, it could be born and survive at that age, I'd take the abortion time right down to 10 weeks, you'd have missed two periods by then so should know that you were pregnant.

I agree with that. If the proper precautions are taken, then there shouldn't be a problem. People often use abortion as a quick fix, and I don't like that.

Yeah there'll always be exceptions like that, which is fair enough,

Memento Mori wrote:Pro-choice , and I can just say how much I hate the term "pro-life". Everyone is pro-life but most people aren't pro forcing women to carry unwanted babies to term.

You may hate the term 'Pro-Life', and you could say it reduces the argument to a base phrase, but frankly, that's the debate, isn't it? At what point is abortion ending a life/murder? Whether or not the woman wants to carry the baby to term.

Eighthours wrote:After all, a child born into a family without love, or without prospects, is another nail in the coffin of social cohesion

Even among the dregs and lower reaches of society, some make it through and go on to live a fulfilling life. Who are we to determine who gets the chance to play the game in the first place?

Drunken_Master wrote:Say, if you found out there was a good chance your baby was to be born with severe disabilities, later, much later on in the pregnancy.

Ah, now that complicates matters for me. If I was in that situation, I can honestly say I don't know what I would do.

Mockmaster wrote:

Eighthours wrote:After all, a child born into a family without love, or without prospects, is another nail in the coffin of social cohesion

Even among the dregs and lower reaches of society, some make it through and go on to live a fulfilling life. Who are we to determine who gets the chance to play the game in the first place?

We're not. I've already said that I'm pro-choice. The potential mother gets to make that decision. Up until the cut-off time, which at present is slightly too long.

I am Pro Choice.

I don't believe that anybody but the mother-to-be has the legal right to decide whether or not to have the baby, and anybody who wants to take that choice away from her is trying to take away her fundamental human right to her own pregnancy. This is bad and shouldn't be allowed, I mean civil liberties are already being eroded, let's not erode them further.

Alvin Flummux wrote:I am Pro Choice.

I don't believe that anybody but the mother-to-be has the right to decide whether or not to have the baby, and anybody who wants to take that choice away from her is trying to take away her fundamental human right to her own pregnancy. This is bad and shouldn't be allowed, I mean civil liberties are already being eroded, let's not erode them further.

What about when the when the foetus in her womb ceases to be a foetus and becomes a child? If it could survive on the outside, then surely 'it' has rights?

The current time limit on abortions looks fine to me, after the time limit expires then sure the baby is a baby of sorts and can live, but before? Fair game if the mother wants to abort.

Alvin Flummux wrote:The current time limit on abortions looks fine to me, after the time limit expires then sure the baby is a baby of sorts and can live, but before? Fair game if the mother wants to abort.

'Baby of sorts'

Quite so. I'm not going to change my position based on a picture, DM.

Pro Choice

I don't believe abortion is an issue for the state to be involved in at all and that its firmly the mother's decision alone to take. As such I don't think there should be any laws concerning abortion in the first place (i.e. no cut-off limits, no law insuring reasons are good reasons for the abortion) so the mother can make her choice as freely as possible, even if people disagree with her choice. I think the easiest way to determine when a foetus becomes a human baby is to use nature's cut-off line - birth. Doctors shouldn't be allowed to opt-out of performing abortions either, especially if they use a religious argument for not wanting to perform an abortion, it should be a do your job, or find a new one situation.

On a sidenote, had the Roe v Wade case decision been different, then Obama would be an almost absolute certainty as more black women have abortions in the US then white women, and their black children would have almost certainly voted for Obama. Abortion being legal is also the same reason crime has gone down, it has nothing to do with "innovative new policing methods".

Alvin Flummux wrote:Quite so. I'm not going to change my position based on a picture, DM.

So, answer me this, why would a woman need 22 weeks to decide whether she wanted her baby?