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Rocsteady
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by Rocsteady » Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:34 am

gaminglegend wrote:I'm so excited for the end of the month, but also I've been suddenly hit with caution. I've dropped a lot of muscle in the past few months and my eatings been off so I'm dying to go back.

But then it's such an area with people panting/breathing out/sweating touching everything that I'm a little worried about it. Anyone else?

It does feel kind of dangerous being back tbh. Everything is open as normal here and the one place I still feel off is the gym, even with going at 9am local time so the place is almost always completely empty.

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by Harry Bizzle » Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:57 pm

Hime wrote:Can you give an example of your diet and daily calories? In my opinion spending time on your diet so you have food you enjoy and look forward too eating is a game changer.


Breakfast - 40g quaker oats in water, teaspoon of honey 80g of frozen fruit (e.g. blueberries). 1 scoop whey and a cup of black coffee. - 293cal
Lunch - 200g basmati rice, 200g chicken breast (usually in the form of a very healthy curry, so I generally don't count anything except the chicken. Plus a big salad for volume. - 700 cals
Dinner - Same as lunch. 700-800cals.
+200 cals on whatever I want.

Daily goal is 2000 calories. Maintenance would be ~2800. If I do weights I might have an extra 100-200 cals. If I go for a run, that's probably an extra 300-400. I'm currently aiming for an 800cal deficit so I can lose about 1% bodyweight a week - (about 0.75kg). I make sure I get a minimum of 130g of protein a day but am usually more like 150-160g.

I think I'm pretty good at dieting on the whole. I enjoy the food I eat and those extra calories help me eat various foods I might want - fruit, chocolate, cookies, whatever. I think it's primarily the duration of my diet that's making it more difficult. I just feel a bit tired and worn out, training isn't the same, etc.


blackoutHERO wrote:I'd personally have a week where you don't worry about the diet. Don't go mental but just eat a good amount of food and get yourself feeling full again. Then get back on the cut and scratch that itch of being lean and seeing where it takes you.


Thank you - this seems like a good idea. I generally prefer to eat clean, so will probably just eat the same sorts of food when I'm bulking. Eggs and toast for breakfast and a few extra calories with each meal and that will take me to about 2800 fairly easily. I definitely don't want to go crazy as I'm likely to see my weight shift up by a kilo or so just due to water and what not when my diet changes so I'm keen to get a feel for that and make sure my estimated maintenance cals are accurate.

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Hime
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by Hime » Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:27 pm

Harry Bizzle wrote:
Hime wrote:Can you give an example of your diet and daily calories? In my opinion spending time on your diet so you have food you enjoy and look forward too eating is a game changer.


Breakfast - 40g quaker oats in water, teaspoon of honey 80g of frozen fruit (e.g. blueberries). 1 scoop whey and a cup of black coffee. - 293cal
Lunch - 200g basmati rice, 200g chicken breast (usually in the form of a very healthy curry, so I generally don't count anything except the chicken. Plus a big salad for volume. - 700 cals
Dinner - Same as lunch. 700-800cals.
+200 cals on whatever I want.

Daily goal is 2000 calories. Maintenance would be ~2800. If I do weights I might have an extra 100-200 cals. If I go for a run, that's probably an extra 300-400. I'm currently aiming for an 800cal deficit so I can lose about 1% bodyweight a week - (about 0.75kg). I make sure I get a minimum of 130g of protein a day but am usually more like 150-160g.

I think I'm pretty good at dieting on the whole. I enjoy the food I eat and those extra calories help me eat various foods I might want - fruit, chocolate, cookies, whatever. I think it's primarily the duration of my diet that's making it more difficult. I just feel a bit tired and worn out, training isn't the same, etc.


blackoutHERO wrote:I'd personally have a week where you don't worry about the diet. Don't go mental but just eat a good amount of food and get yourself feeling full again. Then get back on the cut and scratch that itch of being lean and seeing where it takes you.


Thank you - this seems like a good idea. I generally prefer to eat clean, so will probably just eat the same sorts of food when I'm bulking. Eggs and toast for breakfast and a few extra calories with each meal and that will take me to about 2800 fairly easily. I definitely don't want to go crazy as I'm likely to see my weight shift up by a kilo or so just due to water and what not when my diet changes so I'm keen to get a feel for that and make sure my estimated maintenance cals are accurate.

2000 calories is pretty low, I've done it but I'm glad I don't have to do that again. What's your rate of weight loss? At that low I would say you could fit at least one cheat meal or 'refeed' in a week. How are your cravings?

Why not have a week or two at 3000 calories then just take it down to a 300/400 calorie deficit? Also it might be worth counting the calories from your curry as it might actually work out as an extra 100-200 calories.

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by Harry Bizzle » Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:33 pm

Hime wrote:2000 calories is pretty low, I've done it but I'm glad I don't have to do that again. What's your rate of weight loss? At that low I would say you could fit at least one cheat meal or 'refeed' in a week. How are your cravings?

Why not have a week or two at 3000 calories then just take it down to a 300/400 calorie deficit? Also it might be worth counting the calories from your curry as it might actually work out as an extra 100-200 calories.


About 0.7-0.8kg per week. I think a smaller deficit might be a good idea when I restart. Cravings have generally been ok but worse recently.

Usually I take the approach of only counting every little thing if my weight loss isn't in line with the deficit I'm hitting, which is why I haven't really bothered calculating all the calories in the curry, for example.

But yeah, I think as BOH suggested - a week at maintenance - maybe two if I feel like it, and then a smaller deficit as you suggest. Especially because as I get leaner I'm more worried about losing muscle.

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by Hime » Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:35 am

Harry Bizzle wrote:
Hime wrote:2000 calories is pretty low, I've done it but I'm glad I don't have to do that again. What's your rate of weight loss? At that low I would say you could fit at least one cheat meal or 'refeed' in a week. How are your cravings?

Why not have a week or two at 3000 calories then just take it down to a 300/400 calorie deficit? Also it might be worth counting the calories from your curry as it might actually work out as an extra 100-200 calories.


About 0.7-0.8kg per week. I think a smaller deficit might be a good idea when I restart. Cravings have generally been ok but worse recently.

Usually I take the approach of only counting every little thing if my weight loss isn't in line with the deficit I'm hitting, which is why I haven't really bothered calculating all the calories in the curry, for example.

But yeah, I think as BOH suggested - a week at maintenance - maybe two if I feel like it, and then a smaller deficit as you suggest. Especially because as I get leaner I'm more worried about losing muscle.

I'm now a big believer in minimum effective dose along with a personalised diet. Just for some context I hired local body builder a couple of years ago before I got married. I hated the meals so much it was torture, those 8 weeks were hell. Half the people I follow on YouTube now we're because I was watching did eating challenges because it was all I could think about. This year I've gone from 201lbs after Christmas to 175lbs today without really thinking about it.

Ideally I think you should lose it gain weight as slowly as possible, in my opinion you're bordering on crash diet levels with those numbers.

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by blackoutHERO » Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:16 am

I'm trying to get some size just now. Building strength back up but was always asked by my ex to 'not get too big' so I skipped a lot of my hypertrophy and shot for strength gains only. Now I'm gonna try add more size cause I can and hopefully it will eventually help me surpass my plateaus. I haven't set a PB in like 7 years. If I can set a new 1RM by this time next year I'll be very happy.

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by Hime » Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:52 pm

blackoutHERO wrote:I'm trying to get some size just now. Building strength back up but was always asked by my ex to 'not get too big' so I skipped a lot of my hypertrophy and shot for strength gains only. Now I'm gonna try add more size cause I can and hopefully it will eventually help me surpass my plateaus. I haven't set a PB in like 7 years. If I can set a new 1RM by this time next year I'll be very happy.

Any idea what programme you intend to follow? I think I'll always stay primarily strength focused as it just seems to suit me, I like that you can keep doing the big 4 and adjust your accessory work to whatever your current goals are.

I intend to jump on Starting Strength when my stuff arrives. I've been going on their website and board a lot lately and there is some really great stuff. I just struggle with their attitude towards weight and if you're not 225lb '20%' body fat, you're skinny.

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by blackoutHERO » Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:07 pm

Hime wrote:Any idea what programme you intend to follow? I think I'll always stay primarily strength focused as it just seems to suit me, I like that you can keep doing the big 4 and adjust your accessory work to whatever your current goals are.


I'm currently following a 5x5 with accessories just now to regain lost strength from time off. I'll follow this until I stall and re-evaluate.

Will likely follow a 'powerbuilding' style program which I'll create myself. I'm imagining something like this:

Monday:
3x5 Low Bar Squat
3x10 High Bar
3x10 Leg Extensions
3x10 Bicep Curls
3x10 Ab Wheel


Tuesday:
5x5 Bench
3x10 Close Grip
3x10 Weighted Dips
3x10 Incline DB Press
3x10 Tricep Pushdown


Thursday:
2x5 Deadlift
3x5 Front Squat
3x10 GHR
3x10 Barbell Row
3x10 Chins
3x10 Bicep Curls


Friday:
3x8 OHP
3x10 Bench (80% of Tuesdays)
3x10 Incline DB Press
3x10 Ab Wheel



Then I'll change the bolded exercises into 4 reps for couple weeks, then 3, then 2 then 1 as push into peaking. I'd see how that goes for 16 weeks or so and re-evaluate again. I like starting new programs, but I'm still trying to figure out what I want and when I get back into properly I'll be in new city, new job etc. so I'll enjoy the flexibility of my own program. I tend to get frustrated if I miss prescribed weights and sets.

This will hopefully get me to a 220/145/270 total by this time next year. Then I'll put my focus into deadlift and try pull 300 before I'm 30 in 01/22.

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by Hime » Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:29 pm

blackoutHERO wrote:
Hime wrote:Any idea what programme you intend to follow? I think I'll always stay primarily strength focused as it just seems to suit me, I like that you can keep doing the big 4 and adjust your accessory work to whatever your current goals are.


I'm currently following a 5x5 with accessories just now to regain lost strength from time off. I'll follow this until I stall and re-evaluate.

Will likely follow a 'powerbuilding' style program which I'll create myself. I'm imagining something like this:

Monday:
3x5 Low Bar Squat
3x10 High Bar
3x10 Leg Extensions
3x10 Bicep Curls
3x10 Ab Wheel


Tuesday:
5x5 Bench
3x10 Close Grip
3x10 Weighted Dips
3x10 Incline DB Press
3x10 Tricep Pushdown


Thursday:
2x5 Deadlift
3x5 Front Squat
3x10 GHR
3x10 Barbell Row
3x10 Chins
3x10 Bicep Curls


Friday:
3x8 OHP
3x10 Bench (80% of Tuesdays)
3x10 Incline DB Press
3x10 Ab Wheel



Then I'll change the bolded exercises into 4 reps for couple weeks, then 3, then 2 then 1 as push into peaking. I'd see how that goes for 16 weeks or so and re-evaluate again. I like starting new programs, but I'm still trying to figure out what I want and when I get back into properly I'll be in new city, new job etc. so I'll enjoy the flexibility of my own program. I tend to get frustrated if I miss prescribed weights and sets.

This will hopefully get me to a 220/145/270 total by this time next year. Then I'll put my focus into deadlift and try pull 300 before I'm 30 in 01/22.

That's very similar to what I'm looking to do. Looks like Boring But Big or 4 day Texas Method with alternating volume and intensity days for the big 4. I take it you're in Australia from previous comments?

What do you think of the nutrition advice with Starting Strength.

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by blackoutHERO » Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:08 pm

Nah I'm in Scotland now.

Not too familiar with it other than GOMAD. I prefer Stronglifts for beginners and feel it's good for the first three months or so with some tweaks but it gets too boring for most. Plus like you said, they are very much of the 'squats and milk' farmer build which isn't what most people want.

I'd be more inclined to try the 5x5 approach I've been using on a beginner and see how they do - https://tim.blog/2008/12/18/pavel-8020- ... our-lifts/

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by Harry Bizzle » Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:32 pm

Hime wrote:
Harry Bizzle wrote:
Hime wrote:2000 calories is pretty low, I've done it but I'm glad I don't have to do that again. What's your rate of weight loss? At that low I would say you could fit at least one cheat meal or 'refeed' in a week. How are your cravings?

Why not have a week or two at 3000 calories then just take it down to a 300/400 calorie deficit? Also it might be worth counting the calories from your curry as it might actually work out as an extra 100-200 calories.


About 0.7-0.8kg per week. I think a smaller deficit might be a good idea when I restart. Cravings have generally been ok but worse recently.

Usually I take the approach of only counting every little thing if my weight loss isn't in line with the deficit I'm hitting, which is why I haven't really bothered calculating all the calories in the curry, for example.

But yeah, I think as BOH suggested - a week at maintenance - maybe two if I feel like it, and then a smaller deficit as you suggest. Especially because as I get leaner I'm more worried about losing muscle.

I'm now a big believer in minimum effective dose along with a personalised diet. Just for some context I hired local body builder a couple of years ago before I got married. I hated the meals so much it was torture, those 8 weeks were hell. Half the people I follow on YouTube now we're because I was watching did eating challenges because it was all I could think about. This year I've gone from 201lbs after Christmas to 175lbs today without really thinking about it.

Ideally I think you should lose it gain weight as slowly as possible, in my opinion you're bordering on crash diet levels with those numbers.



I don’t think it’s necessarily crash dieting. I’ve previously always cut at -500cals, but was listening to a podcast with Mike Israetel on it and he suggested losing 1% bodyweight a week is a good ballpark for getting your diet done quicker and not pushing too hard.

All the way up to week 12 it was fine. It’s just more recently my drive to train has fallen off a cliff.


blackoutHERO wrote:I'm trying to get some size just now. Building strength back up but was always asked by my ex to 'not get too big' so I skipped a lot of my hypertrophy and shot for strength gains only.


I think it’s important to remember that if women still find you sexually attractive, you’re too small.



Bit surprised by Starting Strength - I think it’s fine for beginners but if you’re intermediate or advanced it’s got a lot of holes in it. I did GZCLP for a while which was a nice mix of low and high reps and before the gyms closed I was doing PPL but with each workout centered around SBD/OHP or rows and then just accessories around that. It seemed to work pretty well.

For legs, I honestly haven’t found I need anything other than squats and deadlifts to make my legs grow.

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by Hime » Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:16 pm

blackoutHERO wrote:Nah I'm in Scotland now.

Not too familiar with it other than GOMAD. I prefer Stronglifts for beginners and feel it's good for the first three months or so with some tweaks but it gets too boring for most. Plus like you said, they are very much of the 'squats and milk' farmer build which isn't what most people want.

I'd be more inclined to try the 5x5 approach I've been using on a beginner and see how they do - https://tim.blog/2008/12/18/pavel-8020- ... our-lifts/

I'm pretty sure Stronglifts is considered a bastardised version of Starting Strength/Only the Strong Survive, I've always thought it doesn't really matter which you do as you'll be getting the benefits of progressive overload and newbie gains.

Harry Bizzle wrote:Bit surprised by Starting Strength - I think it’s fine for beginners but if you’re intermediate or advanced it’s got a lot of holes in it. I did GZCLP for a while which was a nice mix of low and high reps and before the gyms closed I was doing PPL but with each workout centered around SBD/OHP or rows and then just accessories around that. It seemed to work pretty well.

For legs, I honestly haven’t found I need anything other than squats and deadlifts to make my legs grow.

I think it's worth mentioning that Starting Strength is focused purely on strength and has no interest in body building or physique. I want to try it because of the stages and he they programme the deadlift. I did Fierce 5 as my NLP and in hindsight I think the deadlift progression killed me.

If you're an intermediate you'd be looking at PPST if you're interested in Starting Strength. I bought it and have been pleasantly surprised with the programmes it provides. Andy Baker seems much more open to people wanting to train for other reasons than waddling up to a squat rack. Here's an example of 4 day power building split from his website:

Monday

Bench Press
DB or BB Incline Press
Chins or Pull Ups
Dips
Rear Delt Raises
Bicep Curls

Tuesday

Squat
Leg Press or Hack Squat
Leg Extension
Lying Leg Curl
Calves
Abs

Thursday

Overhead Press
Dumbbell Press
Side Delt Raise
Close Grip Bench
Lying Tricep Extension
Cable Pressdown

Friday

Light Squat
Deadlifts
Barbell Row
Lat Pulldown
Shrugs
45 Degree Back Extension
OR

Light Squat
Deadlifts
RDL
Dumbbell Row
Lat Pulldown
Shrugs

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by Harry Bizzle » Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:52 pm

I’ve run SS twice (I only switched my focus from strength to hypertrophy a few months ago) and think it’s a great book for beginners who don’t know about progressive overload or how to perform barbell movements, but I don’t think it’s a great LP because unless you modify it, it’s got no rows or equivalent. I wouldn’t recommend anyone ever run it without adding in chin ups or rows.

I’m not sure what you mean about how they programme the deadlift, either. Deadlifting 1.5x/week for 1x5 at the end of a full body workout doesn’t strike me as a particularly great way to programme the DL if it’s a priority for you in any way. Most of the deadlift progression probably comes from carryover from squatting low bar 3 times a week, every week.

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by Hime » Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:24 am

Harry Bizzle wrote:I’ve run SS twice (I only switched my focus from strength to hypertrophy a few months ago) and think it’s a great book for beginners who don’t know about progressive overload or how to perform barbell movements, but I don’t think it’s a great LP because unless you modify it, it’s got no rows or equivalent. I wouldn’t recommend anyone ever run it without adding in chin ups or rows.

I’m not sure what you mean about how they programme the deadlift, either. Deadlifting 1.5x/week for 1x5 at the end of a full body workout doesn’t strike me as a particularly great way to programme the DL if it’s a priority for you in any way. Most of the deadlift progression probably comes from carryover from squatting low bar 3 times a week, every week.

Chins are part of the programme?
https://startingstrength.com/get-started/programs
I've never actually done power cleans so I'm looking forward to trying them. A lot of the intermediate programmes in PPST have rows so I'm not too worried. My thoughts are they I don't know as much as the person who has written the programme so I should do it as written, I mean you're only going to run a novice programme for 6 months maximum so it's not long until you move onto something else.

The deadlift is programmed 3 times a week, then twice a week then once a week but moved to give 9 days recovery (if you deadlift on Monday you don't deadlift again until the following Wednesday). I also like the fact that you micro load which might help me squeeze a bit more out of it. Did you try GOMAD or eat how it suggested in the book?

Do you know about Barbell Medicine? I can see myself shifting more towards those guys at some point as they seem much more open to more than just eat like a horse and lift. I line Starting Strength but it does have a bit of a cult vibe about it at times.

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by Harry Bizzle » Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:42 am

Have you had a long layoff (as in, much longer than the lockdown) from training or something?

That programme has evolved from the one I used. I have the 3rd edition of Starting Strength and there were no phases described. It’s just phase 2 of that, from start to finish. You could modify chins in but it wasn’t part of the programme and if you had any problems that would get pointed to as why (YNDTP - You’re Not Doing The Program).

The first time I ran it, I ate sort of how he suggests without doing GOMAD and just got fat, unsurprisingly.

The reason I ask about a long layoff is that the deadlift frequency in Phase 1 seems to be because it’s for complete newbies who have started well south of their 5RM, need to learn the movement and are making very rapid neural adaptations. If you are already deadlifting a reasonable weight close to your 5RM it will probably run you into the ground deadlifting and squatting 3x per week.


I have never used any of their programmes but Barbell Medicine are pretty good and Austin Baraki is strong AF.

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by Hime » Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:53 am

Harry Bizzle wrote:Have you had a long layoff from training or something?

That programme has evolved from the one I used. I have the 3rd edition of Starting Strength and there were no phases described. It’s just phase 2 of that, from start to finish. You could modify chins in but it wasn’t part of the programme and if you had any problems that would get pointed to as why (YNDTP - You’re Not Doing The Program).

The first time I ran it, I ate sort of how he suggests without doing GOMAD and just got fat, unsurprisingly.

The reason I ask about a long layoff is that the deadlift frequency in Phase 1 seems to be because it’s for complete newbies who have started well south of their 5RM, need to learn the movement and are making very rapid neural adaptations. If you are already deadlifting a reasonable weight close to your 5RM it will probably run you into the ground deadlifting and squatting 3x per week.


I have never used any of their programmes but Barbell Medicine are pretty good and Austin Baraki is strong AF.

Yeah the YNDTP stuff does get frustrating. You'd think they could be a bit more open minded.

Just a Covid layoff from heavy lifting but I've lost a reasonable amount of weight, want to change from sumo deadlift to conventional and I just fancy trying it as it's such a famous programme. I don't think I'll get more than a few months as my lifts were alright before and I'm not willing to put on a gooseberry fool ton of body fat just to get higher numbers. Also I'm a keen golfer so I'm hoping the power cleans might have some transfer. I've asked on the boards and got told to take big jumps so phase 1 is only 2-3 weeks.

Have a look at The Bridge, it's a free programme that Barbell Medicine put out.

Have you got a post Covid programme in mind?

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by Harry Bizzle » Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:28 am

I haven’t at the moment, but will probably fall back into PPL. I generally don’t like bodybuilding programmes because they generally have way too much volume and waste too much time - I’m not sure whether they’re designed for enhanced people who can do insane volume at high intensity and still recover or gym bros who do loads of volume at 0% intensity, but they’re not designed for me, so I just make my own up.

My PL numbers are very average, so I will probably look to get back to where I was over the next few months by just doing a simple linear progression for all the main lifts at the beginning of the relevant workouts (So one of my Push days starts with bench, one starts with OHP, one leg day starts with squats, the other DLs) and just add weight accordingly.

My DL is disproportionately weak after some frustrating injuries (~160kgx3) and a secondary goal would be getting that to 180kg for the time being.

I’ve heard about the Bridge and it’s very well regarded. When I eventually go back to Strength focused (I want to hit 2/3/4/5 plate strength), I’ll definitely be considering it.

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by Hime » Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:28 am

Harry Bizzle wrote:I haven’t at the moment, but will probably fall back into PPL. I generally don’t like bodybuilding programmes because they generally have way too much volume and waste too much time - I’m not sure whether they’re designed for enhanced people who can do insane volume at high intensity and still recover or gym bros who do loads of volume at 0% intensity, but they’re not designed for me, so I just make my own up.

My PL numbers are very average, so I will probably look to get back to where I was over the next few months by just doing a simple linear progression for all the main lifts at the beginning of the relevant workouts (So one of my Push days starts with bench, one starts with OHP, one leg day starts with squats, the other DLs) and just add weight accordingly.

My DL is disproportionately weak after some frustrating injuries (~160kgx3) and a secondary goal would be getting that to 180kg for the time being.

I’ve heard about the Bridge and it’s very well regarded. When I eventually go back to Strength focused (I want to hit 2/3/4/5 plate strength), I’ll definitely be considering it.

Yeah I'm the same, I found body building training was wrecking my joints plus I like having a defined objective with hitting numbers. Plus I don't have the time too do a 5 or 6 day PPL programme.

That sounds like you're going to start back on an upper lower split, I'd highly recommend you check out Andy Bakers site as there are a lot of options.

The only thing that puts me off Barbell Medicine is that they use RPE and I just don't think that would benefit me yet. Also they're very technical so rather than just squatting, benching, etc there are pause squats, tempo squats, pin press, etc. I like a bit more simplicity.

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by blackoutHERO » Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:36 pm

I don't like RPE very much but I did a 10 week program Brain Carroll's 10/20/life and had good results.

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by Hime » Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:48 pm

blackoutHERO wrote:I don't like RPE very much but I did a 10 week program Brain Carroll's 10/20/life and had good results.

Oh I'm sure it works, just at the moment I have too many sessions where I go on feeling like gooseberry fool and the weights feel light or I go in getting great and have to grind it out.

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