GRRR FEMINISM and stuff - New Video Released. Fade mad.

Mogster wrote:

Fade wrote:What Feminist frequency is doing is the equivalent of pointing out how sexist, lazy and male dominated super hero movies have been. And ignoring all other kinds of movies because they don't fit their agenda.

I wish SO much that they would analyse the games they look at from both sides. They have an agenda, that's fair enough, but the way they just steam roll over anything that doesn't back up their opinions drives me crazy.

I want better equality but I can't stand how they are doing it. And now I really regret bumping this thread

The Tropes videos analyse a fair variety of games, but the comparison with superhero movies isn't bad. Part of the reason feminists take issue with the presentation of women in mainstream games is because these are the games that are reaching the most people. It's argued that by consistently presenting women in certain ways, this presentation bleeds its way into society and helps create the idea that it's normal. That's not to say that experiencing sexist content magically makes you sexist, but it's a contributing factor, however small to the way women are viewed in reality. Our views of the world are influenced by the media we consume.

Perhaps, BUT the way in which that media affects how we view the world isn't even remotely as clear cut as "there is misogyny in this thing, so therefore watching it makes you more misogynistic".

To pull another case out of the Sarkeesian backfiles, let us examine the "beautifully executed" Hitman advert she analysed at one point.



I don't know about you, but I recall seeing this advert in magazines "back in the day", and it had exactly the opposite effect on me to the one she claimed. Absolute boner killer.

Again, she's not arguing that misogynistic content makes you misogynistic. She argues that consistent sexist representation helps to normalise casually sexist views of women in society, and sexist behaviour towards them.

TheTurnipKing wrote:I don't know about you, but I recall seeing this advert in magazines "back in the day", and it had exactly the opposite effect on me to the one she claimed. Absolute boner killer.

The point was that the female victims in the campaign were all displayed in sexualised outfits and situations, while the men were not. I don't think she meant that the PRs were aiming to get men turned on by corpses.

Mogster wrote:Again, she's not arguing that misogynistic content makes you misogynistic. She argues that consistent sexist representation helps to normalise casually sexist views of women in society, and sexist behaviour towards them.

Not seeing how those aren't exactly the same.

Lets try a thought experiment

consistent violent representation helps to normalise casual violence in society

Violent representation doesn't normalise casual violence, it creates an expectation with people as to what violence looks like/is like. Which is the argument being made with these tropes, that they are creating expectations of what people expect femininity to look like/be like which in turn influences how people behave in certain situations.

How terrible for them?

I guess I'm not seeing how the creation of panic in women who are about to enter the industry and the vilification of existing media in any way solves that issue more effectively than say, the creation of more games that include alternative representations?

Casual violence in society is normal in my opinion, it might not be acceptable in modern society but the capability of violence if something all of us have deeply set into our DNA.

TheTurnipKing wrote:

Mogster wrote:Again, she's not arguing that misogynistic content makes you misogynistic. She argues that consistent sexist representation helps to normalise casually sexist views of women in society, and sexist behaviour towards them.

Not seeing how those aren't exactly the same.

Lets try a thought experiment

consistent violent representation helps to normalise casual violence in society

For a start, sexist behaviour is not limited to violent behaviour. More than that though, the portrayal of women in media creates expectations of how women are supposed to look, act, or just exist in society. It also creates expectations of normal treatment of women in general, from the perspective of both men and women.

TheTurnipKing wrote:I guess I'm not seeing how the creation of panic in women who are about to enter the industry and the vilification of existing media in any way solves that issue more effectively than say, the creation of more games that include alternative representations?

I'd love to see your evidence for this supposed mass panic, or indeed your reasoning as to why you think the series could possibly cause it. That's just daft!

As for the need for better representation of women in games, that's exactly what Sarkeesian, and pretty much every sane person is calling for. I fail to see how the Tropes vs. Women series is preventing this, especially when it's been shown to be positively encouraging said change.

It's been positively encouraging? Are you... are you even looking at the same videos I am?

Mogster wrote:I'd argue that at the time of the Mega Drive, most games were incredibly light on story to the point where the main character could be pretty much anything; male, female or indeed anthropomorphic animal. I would imagine you'd find a far higher percentage of male leads in 16 bit RPGs or point and click adventures for instance.

Hmm, actually that's an interesting point, but adventure games are... actually not bad. While there's undeniably more guys, they're often treated as bumbling and ineffectual; Monkey Island's Guybrush, as opposed compared to say, Rosella from Kings Quest. But that's partly due to the nature of the genre and the gender stereotypes.

Since you can't hack and bash your way through an adventure game, in an unusual twist, the male protagonist needs to be physically ineffectual, where the female protagonist is expected to be smarter than, and outwit all her foes practically by default.

As for RPGs, many of the most famous 16bit rpgs are actually famous FOR their female protagonists, with Celes and Terra taking a huge role in FF6, Alis Landale in Sega's Phantasy Star, and I hardly need to mention the gender breakdown of protagonists in Chrono Trigger, surely.


The Secret of Mana cast: Short one is a sprite, The dragon-thing is Flammie. Genders undisclosed, so far as I know.

I keep coming into this thread trying to understand what people are actually debating about and then i just give up. Anyone want to summarise.

degoose wrote:I keep coming into this thread trying to understand what people are actually debating about and then i just give up. Anyone want to summarise.

Gamergaters - Girls are icky

Male feminists - Girls are icky but might put out if I am nice to them