Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by more heat than light » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:36 am

Stealth Erasure thread? :shifty:


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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Moggy » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:47 am

more heat than light wrote:Stealth Erasure thread? :shifty:


If gay erasure means trans people getting rid of lesbians, does stealth erasure mean Call of Duty fans getting rid of stealth games? :x

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Skarjo » Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:21 pm

more heat than light wrote:Stealth Erasure thread? :shifty:






:datass:

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Ironhide » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:53 pm

Karl wrote:
lex-man wrote:I don't get the gay erasure argument? What are they trying to say, that gay people will be forced to change their gender.

They are """worried""" (in bad faith) that lesbian teens will be pressured into identifying as & then medically transitioning into straight men.


That's ridiculous, gender identity and sexuality are two different things.

Even as a straight guy I'm fairly sure that the majority of lesbians probably still consider themselves as women.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Rocsteady » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:08 am

Not to bring this back from the dead but I have random thoughts when tired/can't sleep.

Say you get into an argument with someone who denies transgender rights and says there are only two sexes due to the xx xy chromosome, what's the rebuttal for this?

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Dig Dug » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:35 am

Rocsteady wrote:Not to bring this back from the dead but I have random thoughts when tired/can't sleep.

Say you get into an argument with someone who denies transgender rights and says there are only two sexes due to the xx xy chromosome, what's the rebuttal for this?

If you've got 30 minutes to spare this video should give you plenty to work with.

Skip to 4:30 if you want to go straight to the chromosome argument.
Tl;dr it is not an argument of biology but an argument of language.
The Science vs language topic is very well covered in this video:

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Skarjo » Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:27 am

Rocsteady wrote:Not to bring this back from the dead but I have random thoughts when tired/can't sleep.

Say you get into an argument with someone who denies transgender rights and says there are only two sexes due to the xx xy chromosome, what's the rebuttal for this?


First, you can point out that there's a measurable minority of people who don't fit into the XX/XY binary; having genotypes like XXY, XYY, XXX etc. Then you can point out that there are conditions such as XX Male syndrome where someone presents the physical appearance of a male while having an XX genotype. This is because, contrary to what might seem obvious, the actual genes that control the making of your sex bits are not actually carried on the sex chromosomes. The sex chromosomes instead control which parts of your genome get activated and then expressed in your body. A lot of these alternative combos are completely symptomless too, so with a forum of our size there's a damn good chance that several of our members don't fit into the sex binary and don't even know it.

But that's sort of not the point anyway. Anyone who goes down the biological essentialist line of argument is being disingenuous, because literally no part of society requires a genetic test to evaluate their gender. We don't even check out each others genitals except under very specific circumstances. 99% of the time, when you meet someone new, you don't know their genotype or what's slopping around in their pants, and you don't need to check either to pick up on the social cues that tell you how someone wants to be treated.

If anyone genuinely argues that someone's genotype is an important matter in deciding how to guess someones gender then that person must be presumably running round stealing skin samples to send off for PCR sequencing before they decide on whether to use he or she.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Rocsteady » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:11 am

Skarjo wrote:
Rocsteady wrote:Not to bring this back from the dead but I have random thoughts when tired/can't sleep.

Say you get into an argument with someone who denies transgender rights and says there are only two sexes due to the xx xy chromosome, what's the rebuttal for this?


First, you can point out that there's a measurable minority of people who don't fit into the XX/XY binary; having genotypes like XXY, XYY, XXX etc. Then you can point out that there are conditions such as XX Male syndrome where someone presents the physical appearance of a male while having an XX genotype. This is because, contrary to what might seem obvious, the actual genes that control the making of your sex bits are not actually carried on the sex chromosomes. The sex chromosomes instead control which parts of your genome get activated and then expressed in your body. A lot of these alternative combos are completely symptomless too, so with a forum of our size there's a damn good chance that several of our members don't fit into the sex binary and don't even know it.

But that's sort of not the point anyway. Anyone who goes down the biological essentialist line of argument is being disingenuous, because literally no part of society requires a genetic test to evaluate their gender. We don't even check out each others genitals except under very specific circumstances. 99% of the time, when you meet someone new, you don't know their genotype or what's slopping around in their pants, and you don't need to check either to pick up on the social cues that tell you how someone wants to be treated.

If anyone genuinely argues that someone's genotype is an important matter in deciding how to guess someones gender then that person must be presumably running round stealing skin samples to send off for PCR sequencing before they decide on whether to use he or she.

Thanks, that's a really interesting post.

I'll check out sections of those videos later dig dug, cheers.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by mic » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:25 pm

Can we move this to off topic now? I get the impression that this subject is... embarrassing to, or unsuitable for the forum?

So, sorry for dredging this up again, but I've gone away and had a think, done some more reading, yet still have questions.

But, first things first - MY NAME IS MIC, AND I AM A TRANSPHOBE. When this was pointed out to me ("disgusting"; "not a good look"; etc), I recoiled from the very idea. However, having introspected a bit, I now see that my opinions do indeed fall in line with certain social constructions surrounding gender. However, I am equally aware that my ideas do not add up, and this giant post (sorry) is my attempt to reconcile my wayward views, thereby potentially reducing my transphobic levels. Further apologies for not responding if you responded to me earlier, but these are the main gist.

Parksey wrote:I'm curious as to how, if a trans-woman isn't in any way "real", then how are they "unreal"? I would imagine the answer is going to be cause they don't conform to rather rigid ideas about gender...

...I've probably hugely simplified the book and hamfisted the references to it. But it just made me think of it when you mentioned what is real about a trans-woman. The answer is: everything. The same as what is real about you or I.


Link to the book? Or must I purchase it? Not that that's a deal breaker, but you might have something up your sleeve...

Real or unreal...? Quite a few people have (rightly) called me out on my earlier support of bathroom segregation, but in my defence, I (think I) felt at the time that society segregates on the basis of sex in many different areas, and that this segregation was a good thing because it mostly protected women, for example in sports, female-only domestic violence units, or affirmative action drives to include more women. If such forms of segregation (or positive discrimination) can be a good thing, then it isn't a huge stretch to include usage of public changing and restroom facilities. Nevertheless, I concede the following points:

1. Suggesting that transgendered individuals use disabled facilities is offensive.
2. Homo/ Transphobia IS as bad as racism and the two are equivalent.
3. A transwoman IS a woman.

However, this issue is obviously much broader than bathrooms. For me to get my head around it, it seems the idea that "a woman is a woman if she *thinks* she is" must be implementable across the board to all occasions where an individual self-identifies as something... *unnatural* (sorry). For example, as somebody posted above (apologies), these ladies are quite representative of transracialism -

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As with transgendered individuals, they aren't doing it for the attention (I get that!), but because that is how they really feel. All identify as black, not because of their parentage or genetics, but because of their self-identification. The first lady, Rachel Dolezal, was fired from her role as head of a local chapter of the NAACP after being publicly outed (at a press conference!) as being caucasian. Was she discriminated against, or must an NAACP leader be born black?

Karl wrote:...Are you really surprised that doctors treat different medical conditions with different techniques? Mate, it's 'cos you can't actually cure anorexia by letting the person be thin. They want to be thinner and thinner and they die before they get there. So that would be a shite treatment, right? But you can alleviate gender dysphoria with transition, and after transition that person can be perfectly healthy. They become comfortable with their gender presentation and can go on to live a long and happy life (with the possible exception of if they are bullied to suicide by transphobes for not passing well enough, or for passing too well, or whatever else cis bullshit they are subjected to). So that's a good treatment overall...


Your possible exception is deeply disturbing, and I despise the idea of bullying anyone for any reason.

I'm not saying transgenderism should be disallowed or invalidated, but I would argue against decreasing the age of consent for HRT, and even possibly increasing it. What else to do with the high rates of gender reconciliation during the late teens?

Karl wrote:...when you run through a list of kind of "what about this" gotchas, and when you try to justify opinions everyone's telling you are Not Cool (like your "segregation" thing), it makes it seem like you have a pretty deep base of transphobia to dig up before we can start laying down some genuine acceptance...


But... but isn't that the point - to dig? Should I not talk about this? Or must I just blindly tow the line?

BTW, I greatly admire your involvement in changing the application of the Equality Act (is it just that one thing, or are there other avenues for discrimination?).

Skarjo wrote:
mic wrote:BUT YOU LOT DON'T ACCEPT OTHER FORMS OF BODY DYSMORPHIA!

So why this one?


...Body dysmorphia results in a distorted recognition of your own body. This is why anorexics still consider themselves overweight. Trans people are under no illusion as to what their body, in reality, is. However, the body that they recognise doesn't fit their gender, and so the better term is gender dysmorphia...


Saying that gender dysphoria is *different* doesn't work - unless you also advocate the acceptance, as a form of psychological treatment, of transracialism and transableism, with the latter potentially requiring surgery that disables. Or not?

Skarjo wrote:...Don't get me wrong, I'm a science teacher and came at this with a very bullish 'can't change your genes, male=man female=woman' view, but luckily through listening to the experiences of trans people and having those biological essentialist views challenged and realising they held precisely strawberry float all water, I changed my mind.


That is very helpful and I'm certainly open to suggestion.

Skarjo wrote:
Rocsteady wrote:Not to bring this back from the dead but I have random thoughts when tired/can't sleep.

Say you get into an argument with someone who denies transgender rights and says there are only two sexes due to the xx xy chromosome, what's the rebuttal for this?


First, you can point out that there's a measurable minority of people who don't fit into the XX/XY binary; having genotypes like XXY, XYY, XXX etc. Then you can point out that there are conditions such as XX Male syndrome where someone presents the physical appearance of a male while having an XX genotype. This is because, contrary to what might seem obvious, the actual genes that control the making of your sex bits are not actually carried on the sex chromosomes. The sex chromosomes instead control which parts of your genome get activated and then expressed in your body. A lot of these alternative combos are completely symptomless too, so with a forum of our size there's a damn good chance that several of our members don't fit into the sex binary and don't even know it.

But that's sort of not the point anyway. Anyone who goes down the biological essentialist line of argument is being disingenuous, because literally no part of society requires a genetic test to evaluate their gender. We don't even check out each others genitals except under very specific circumstances. 99% of the time, when you meet someone new, you don't know their genotype or what's slopping around in their pants, and you don't need to check either to pick up on the social cues that tell you how someone wants to be treated.

If anyone genuinely argues that someone's genotype is an important matter in deciding how to guess someones gender then that person must be presumably running round stealing skin samples to send off for PCR sequencing before they decide on whether to use he or she.


I can't dispute any of that and it serves as the perfect example of how mixed-up my views are on gender. It also explains the outrageous murder rate of black transwomen.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Albear » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:46 pm

Im locking this

:P :wink:

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Karl » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:15 pm

mic wrote:...I recoiled from the very idea. However, having introspected a bit, I now see that my opinions do indeed fall in line with certain social constructions surrounding gender. However, I am equally aware that my ideas do not add up, and this giant post (sorry) is my attempt to reconcile my wayward views, thereby potentially reducing my transphobic levels...

Cool, it's good you want to empathise better with trans people.

mic wrote:...in my defence, I (think I) felt at the time that society segregates on the basis of sex in many different areas, and that this segregation was a good thing because it mostly protected women, for example in sports, female-only domestic violence units, or affirmative action drives to include more women. If such forms of segregation (or positive discrimination) can be a good thing, then it isn't a huge stretch to include usage of public changing and restroom facilities...

Sure, that is a good argument as to why gendered spaces can be useful. Trans women are statistically a particularly vulnerable subset of women - suffering a high rate of harassment, violence, and so forth - so it's particularly important that trans women can access these spaces if they need to.

mic wrote:...For me to get my head around it, it seems the idea that "a woman is a woman if she *thinks* she is" must be implementable across the board to all occasions where an individual self-identifies as something... *unnatural* (sorry). For example, as somebody posted above (apologies), these ladies are quite representative of transracialism... as with transgendered individuals, they aren't doing it for the attention (I get that!), but because that is how they really feel. All identify as black...

I see no medical or sociological reason one would need to compare the two. The biology underpinning gender is very different to that of race, and there is a large body of research on transgender people which establishes an understanding of the condition of gender dysphoria - including transition as the only viable treatment - whereas what causes a person to feel transracial is anyone's guess. There is also a long history of transgender people existing within many different kinds of society, which gives the identity an important cultural context that a transracial identity doesn't have. The comparison is a red herring in this discussion: the two things are of no relevance to each other.

mic wrote:Saying that gender dysphoria is *different* doesn't work - unless you also advocate the acceptance, as a form of psychological treatment, of transracialism and transableism, with the latter potentially requiring surgery that disables. Or not?

I remark that we went through this once already earlier in the thread, and that you seem to be stuck on this for whatever reason.

Is there evidence that a trans person transitioning to their preferred gender will cure their psychological distress? Yes, lots! Is there evidence (to return to your example earlier this thread) a person with anorexia becoming even thinner will cure their psychological distress? No, it kills them! Is there evidence that physically disabling a transable person will cure their psychological distress? I don't know (and neither do you), we simply don't yet understand why people feel that way or what treatment options might help them feel better.

mic wrote:I'm not saying transgenderism should be disallowed or invalidated, but I would argue against decreasing the age of consent for HRT, and even possibly increasing it. What else to do with the high rates of gender reconciliation during the late teens?

You aren't a doctor or medical scientist, nor are you trans. The people who are out there on Twitter in hysterics about HRT are not experts either. Your opinion on when HRT should be administered in teenagers who exhibit gender dysphoria is not particularly well-informed.

mic wrote:But... but isn't that the point - to dig? Should I not talk about this? Or must I just blindly tow the line?

Uh? I can't make you do anything. I just didn't think rattling off a big list of your hang-ups was necessarily a productive way to engage with this discussion.

mic wrote:BTW, I greatly admire your involvement in changing the application of the Equality Act (is it just that one thing, or are there other avenues for discrimination?).

Well, it was just a consultation -- I thought it was important to fill in because I think trans people face a lot of really brutal hurdles in this country.

Some of them are legal barriers. I don't think the outdated and potentially discriminatory phrasing in the Equality Act is great, and given some legal protections are predicated on having a gender recognition certificate, I think it's unacceptable how invasive and bureaucratic the application for that certificate outlined in the Gender Recognition Act is. I also think it's time we recognise nonbinary people as their own legal gender.

There are other problems which stem from outdated or underfunded NHS provisions. There is typically a two year queue - it can be up to four years - between telling your GP you are trans and getting to see a gender therapist. It can be difficult to get their recommendation to begin HRT - particularly if you are yet to complete your social transition, e.g. if you wanted to begin HRT before coming out at work - which can impose further delays of up to a year. GPs can refuse to offer the blood tests you need to ensure your safety if you decide to self-administer HRT during that wait. It's typically a further two years after you begin HRT before your gender reassignment surgery. A trans person who cannot afford to go private would therefore be typically looking at between four and seven years before their transition is medically complete. Gender dysphoria is associated with an elevated suicide rate; that could be seven years of bursting into tears and wanting to die every time you look down in the shower. And that's not to mention that the NHS generally does not fund other surgical options (like facial feminisation for trans women) even though these can be hugely important to a person's transition. The fact that trans healthcare in this country is so, so crap, compared even to equivalent services in the States (which should be a low bar) is a form of discrimination. I don't have all the answers from a logistics perspective but we have to do better than this.

Of course, these are all symptoms of profound underlying sociocultural problems -- which manifest most directly in the fact that trans people (particularly those who don't yet pass) are still constantly harassed or worse by profoundly ignorant bigots, sometimes even within their own families.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Rocsteady » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:55 pm

Bosh

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Skarjo » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:18 pm

mic wrote:
Skarjo wrote:
mic wrote:BUT YOU LOT DON'T ACCEPT OTHER FORMS OF BODY DYSMORPHIA!

So why this one?


...Body dysmorphia results in a distorted recognition of your own body. This is why anorexics still consider themselves overweight. Trans people are under no illusion as to what their body, in reality, is. However, the body that they recognise doesn't fit their gender, and so the better term is gender dysmorphia...


Saying that gender dysphoria is *different* doesn't work - unless you also advocate the acceptance, as a form of psychological treatment, of transracialism and transableism, with the latter potentially requiring surgery that disables. Or not?


(I'll preface this with saying I've never met, nor talked, with anyone affected by transracialism, and I don't know where I stand on it)

Again, as I said, treatment of transgenderism with surgery seems to work. We tried therapy, we tried denial, but societal recognition and sometimes surgery seems to work.

With transableism, there are people who genuinely do not recognise their own limbs. I read about a guy who thought of his left leg as so alien to his form that he packed the footwell of his car with dry ice and waited until his leg was numb/dead enough to cut it off himself.

Would I like there to be a therapy where I can tell these people the right super-combo of words that they don't feel this way instead of surgery? Of course. But all evidence suggests that cheat code isn't there. And if there was, does that make them wrong?

The transpeople I know have never been in any doubt about the gender they align with. Their life harms no one, and they are disproportionately harmed by people who perform gymnastics through their double standards from insisting they know what makes a man and a woman despite never sufficiently defining what that means.

So I ask you, Mic.

What, to you, differentiates a man from a woman?

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Ironhide » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:01 pm

Rocsteady wrote:Not to bring this back from the dead but I have random thoughts when tired/can't sleep.

Say you get into an argument with someone who denies transgender rights and says there are only two sexes due to the xx xy chromosome, what's the rebuttal for this?


Sex is biological, gender is a more difficult to define 'state' of personal identity.

The average person's sex and gender are the same but that isn't necessarily true for everyone.

And if you want to get technical there's actually more then 2 sexes if you include individuals with extra chromosomes (XXY or XYY).

Basically it more complicated than a simple binary difference of one or the other.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by mic » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:48 pm

Well, I tried but two responses is too much to pass up!

Karl wrote:
mic wrote:...in my defence, I (think I) felt at the time that society segregates on the basis of sex in many different areas, and that this segregation was a good thing because it mostly protected women, for example in sports, female-only domestic violence units, or affirmative action drives to include more women. If such forms of segregation (or positive discrimination) can be a good thing, then it isn't a huge stretch to include usage of public changing and restroom facilities...

Sure, that is a good argument as to why gendered spaces can be useful. Trans women are statistically a particularly vulnerable subset of women - suffering a high rate of harassment, violence, and so forth - so it's particularly important that trans women can access these spaces if they need to...


Like I said, this is much bigger than changing rooms and toilets, but you seem to have not engaged with my examples of instances where transwomen might appropriately not be welcome, which were sports, female-only domestic violence units, and affirmative action drives.

Karl wrote:
mic wrote: ...the idea that "a woman is a woman if she *thinks* she is" must be implementable across the board to all occasions where an individual self-identifies as something... *unnatural* (sorry). For example… transracialism...

I see no medical or sociological reason one would need to compare the two. The biology underpinning gender is very different to that of race, and there is a large body of research on transgender people which establishes an understanding of the condition of gender dysphoria - including transition as the only viable treatment - whereas what causes a person to feel transracial is anyone's guess. There is also a long history of transgender people existing within many different kinds of society, which gives the identity an important cultural context that a transracial identity doesn't have. The comparison is a red herring in this discussion: the two things are of no relevance to each other...


So, transphobia is equivalent to racism, but transgenderism is not equivalent to transracialism? Isn’t that a double-standard? I don’t see the comparison as a red herring. Gender and sexuality have been around for ages whereas, race being a relatively recent political construction, transracialism’s cultural context is only now developing because it is perhaps really only now becoming a social issue. Do transables and transracials not deserve the same sympathies as transgenders – i.e., being taken seriously (which I suppose for transables would include the use of disabled toilet and parking facilities ;-) )?

Also, I thought that since gender and race are social constructions, there IS no biology underpinning any of it! Sex and perhaps ethnicity have biological explanations, but gender and race are socially constructed and therefore entirely psychological – am I being pedantic? Body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria both have a place in the DSM and are comparable in that (as with transracialism) they are focused upon how they are socially perceived. Treatment for the conditions may vary, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t comparable from a social perspective for the purposes of increasing understanding or improving perceptions. Are you saying that you do not feel transracialism to be worthy of the same level of support as transgenderism because it doesn’t have the same historical pedigree? That's ism-ism!

Karl wrote: …You aren't a doctor or medical scientist, nor are you trans… Your opinion on when HRT should be administered in teenagers who exhibit gender dysphoria is not particularly well-informed…


Karl, you’ve certainly put me in my place. You are correct – I am neither doctor, scientist nor trans. However, epistemological insiderism aside, this is not a professional symposium and my views are based upon my own research, which has revealed a high recidivism rate where transpeople change their minds or decide to be nonbinary.

Karl wrote: …I can't make you do anything. I just didn't think rattling off a big list of your hang-ups was necessarily a productive way to engage with this discussion...


Well, you’re the super-mod who runs the forum (or whatever) and I’m a good forumite, so if you ask me to stop talking about this, I will :-) . Genuine question, therefore: how should I engage with this discussion more productively?

Karl wrote: …I think it's unacceptable how invasive and bureaucratic the application for that certificate outlined in the Gender Recognition Act is. I also think it's time we recognise nonbinary people as their own legal gender…


How does gender-fluidity factor in to your position?

Skarjo wrote:(I'll preface this with saying I've never met, nor talked, with anyone affected by transracialism, and I don't know where I stand on it) …


Must one have an insider viewpoint on a position to discuss it? Since this topic remains in the Games folder, it seems appropriate to compare that to saying, “but you haven’t even played it”.

Skarjo wrote: …With transableism, there are people who genuinely do not recognise their own limbs. I read about a guy who thought of his left leg as so alien to his form that he packed the footwell of his car with dry ice and waited until his leg was numb/dead enough to cut it off himself.
Would I like there to be a therapy where I can tell these people the right super-combo of words that they don't feel this way instead of surgery? Of course. But all evidence suggests that cheat code isn't there. And if there was, does that make them wrong?…


I do not mean to suggest that transableism or other forms of body dysmorphia are invalid. As Karl points out, anorexia and other eating disorders cannot be supported in the same way as gender dysphoria because support will not improve health. As per your example (I read of a lady whose mental health improved vastly once she had successfully blinded herself), supporting transableism can improve overall health even while disabling. My (tenuous, admittedly) point is that other forms of dysmorphia and dysphoria are not worthy of equal recognition to those championing the causes of transgenderism.

Skarjo wrote: …So I ask you, Mic. What, to you, differentiates a man from a woman?


I thought I knew, but now… nothing, I suppose. Hyper-egalitarian thinking prevents my mentally imposing any sort of gender-based limitation and even the ability to reproduce in line with gender construction in achievable by (pre-op) transgenders… so no differentiation at all then, which is somewhat confusing as a cis-gendered heterosexual.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Karl » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:32 pm

mic wrote:..you seem to have not engaged with my examples of instances where transwomen might appropriately not be welcome, which were sports, female-only domestic violence units, and affirmative action drives...

Then I'll address them in turn. 1. If a trans woman has been a victim of domestic abuse and needs to access a shelter for women, it is clearly of huge importance that she be able to (as I hope any woman could if she found herself in that terrible circumstance). 2. Trans women are typically subject to a mix of transphobia and misogyny and are therefore as deserving of extra consideration in hiring (etc.) as any other woman. 3. I'm not a sports fan, but a trans woman who has transitioned medically will after a short while have a similar hormonal profile to any other woman, so I would expect her to have a typically female range of strength and endurance. (I find it strange that sports teams are often mentioned in the same breath as domestic violence shelters as it seems trivial by comparison.)

mic wrote:...So, transphobia is equivalent to racism, but transgenderism is not equivalent to transracialism?... ...Do transables and transracials not deserve the same sympathies as transgenders[?]... [and more increasingly hysterical paragraphs like this]

Nice wordplay. I'm clearly & obviously not saying it's OK to bully people who consider themselves transracial. What I said was that the social context of gender and race are different, and anything that might help inform our understanding from a medical or biological perspective - sure, sex and ethnicity, whatever - is also different. We therefore don't need to have a conversation about those who consider themselves transracial as a tedious proxy for a conversation about transgender people.

You should have the decency to hurry up and make whatever point you want to about transgender people directly rather than wasting time like this.

...Well, maybe that's harsh, as you later said this to Skarjo:

mic wrote:My (tenuous, admittedly) point is that other forms of dysmorphia and dysphoria are not worthy of equal recognition to those championing the causes of transgenderism.

No-one in this thread has said those things are "not worthy of recognition" (whatever that even means). All anyone has told you is "if you want to talk about being transgender, talk about it, not this other irrelevant stuff".

mic wrote:Gender and sexuality have been around for ages whereas, race being a relatively recent political construction, transracialism’s cultural context is only now developing because it is perhaps really only now becoming a social issue.

This would be an interesting hypothesis if you presented it in a more relevant discussion. I simply don't understand those states of mind from a medical perspective, nor do I have any sociological framework in which to analyse their change of social & cultural role, so I have literally no opinion on it -- other than that it seems very bad-faith that you keep bringing it up in this thread.

mic wrote:...You are correct – I am neither doctor, scientist nor trans. However, epistemological insiderism aside, this is not a professional symposium and my views are based upon my own research, which has revealed a high recidivism rate where transpeople change their minds or decide to be nonbinary.

...and later...

mic wrote:Must one have an insider viewpoint on a position to discuss it? Since this topic remains in the Games folder, it seems appropriate to compare that to saying, “but you haven’t even played it”.

Why do you think "epistemological insiderism" is a bad thing in this instance? It's an issue of medical best practice. Laypeople like you have limited insight. That's not an insult.

Doctors generally prescribe HRT at around age 17 at the earliest. That will be to trans teens who presented early; who were diagnosed by a specialist as having gender dysphoria; whose feelings have persisted over time; and who have already socially transitioned. What percentage of trans teens actually begin HRT and then, after some time, detransition? What percentage of those state their reasoning as "I was wrong about being trans"? What percentage of that subset continue to have lingering, serious regrets after detransitioning (which is presumably your fear)?

Look, I know what you've read. Some terf Mum on Twitter will have been screeching, "for 80% of kids who feel dysphoric, by the time they're through puberty it goes away!" That statistic is a load of shite - it was measured badly and doesn't even measure the right thing - and now it echoes around the grim little transphobe corner of Twitter because they are desperate to believe anything to justify refusing to accept their little girl or boy or enby for who they are.

mic wrote:How does gender-fluidity factor in to your position [on legal recognition]?

I know a few genderfluid people who would be very happy updating their gender marker to indicate they are nonbinary, or to the binary gender they feel like most of the time (if there is one). I definitely think they should have that option.

mic wrote:Well, you’re the super-mod who runs the forum (or whatever) and I’m a good forumite, so if you ask me to stop talking about this, I will :-) .

Nah, I threw in that towel a while back. For what it's worth my name will turn orange if I ever pick it up again (I'll give it another six months then see how I feel!). It's true that outside of here I mostly hang out in explicitly queer-friendly communities where your questions wouldn't be tolerated, but my understanding is that the mods do not want GRcade (for better or worse) to be a "safe space" like I would personally prefer, so I guess you can post about whatever you want; again, I'm not a mod.

mic wrote:Genuine question, therefore: how should I engage with this discussion more productively?

You could just go and listen to what trans people say about being trans. I can't think of a better way to build genuine understanding and empathy than that. If you want to read articles, Zinnia Jones runs an interesting website called Gender Analysis which publishes medium-length essays about transness. (I haven't read loads of them, but the site has a few articles on trans teens - particularly on the made-up lie of "rapid-onset" dysphoria - that I thought were very informative.) If you prefer fun, weird videos, Natalie Wynn has a YouTube channel already mentioned in this thread where she talks about transness (What is Gender? is probably her first very good video, and TERFs, Autogynephilia, Tiffany Tumbles, Pronouns, and Are Traps Gay? are all excellent). If you want to ask trans people directly I guess you could try r/AskTransgender if you are careful to abide by their rules and ask good-faith questions (but it's a sub to ask, not to debate).

EDIT: Oh, and if journal articles are your thing, doi:10.1016/j.jsxm.2018.01.016 is a bit of capital-letters Really Good research on the subject of detransition. (I'm afraid it's paywalled, so if you lack an institutional login you may have to pirate it or visit a library to read it.)

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Skarjo » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:51 am

mic wrote:
Skarjo wrote:(I'll preface this with saying I've never met, nor talked, with anyone affected by transracialism, and I don't know where I stand on it) …


Must one have an insider viewpoint on a position to discuss it? Since this topic remains in the Games folder, it seems appropriate to compare that to saying, “but you haven’t even played it”.


I mean, 'you haven't played it' is a pretty valid criticism if someone is claiming to be an authority on a game. I don't necessarily need to be transracial to have an opinion on it, but I'm simply saying that I haven't got any experience on the matter and so any opinion I might have is pretty meaningless, so I'll withhold it.

mic wrote:
Skarjo wrote: …With transableism, there are people who genuinely do not recognise their own limbs. I read about a guy who thought of his left leg as so alien to his form that he packed the footwell of his car with dry ice and waited until his leg was numb/dead enough to cut it off himself.
Would I like there to be a therapy where I can tell these people the right super-combo of words that they don't feel this way instead of surgery? Of course. But all evidence suggests that cheat code isn't there. And if there was, does that make them wrong?…


I do not mean to suggest that transableism or other forms of body dysmorphia are invalid. As Karl points out, anorexia and other eating disorders cannot be supported in the same way as gender dysphoria because support will not improve health. As per your example (I read of a lady whose mental health improved vastly once she had successfully blinded herself), supporting transableism can improve overall health even while disabling. My (tenuous, admittedly) point is that other forms of dysmorphia and dysphoria are not worthy of equal recognition to those championing the causes of transgenderism.


Other types of body dysmorphia are not treated in the same way because those treatments do not work. If you support and enable the dysmorphic view that an anorexic has about their body being overweight that person will starve and die. It's not that their dysmorphia is invalid, it's that treatment that supports their dysmorphia kills them. With transableism, again, of course I'd prefer a treatment that doesn't involve blinding the person, but given that all evidence suggests that, if we don't support them, they'll do it themselves and probably under much more dangerous circumstances. Is it not better to allow them to make that choice for themselves under medical supervision than, as per my previous example, watch a person pack their car footwell with dry ice to freeze a leg off?

Mic wrote:
Skarjo wrote: …So I ask you, Mic. What, to you, differentiates a man from a woman?


I thought I knew, but now… nothing, I suppose. Hyper-egalitarian thinking prevents my mentally imposing any sort of gender-based limitation and even the ability to reproduce in line with gender construction in achievable by (pre-op) transgenders… so no differentiation at all then, which is somewhat confusing as a cis-gendered heterosexual.


Quite the opposite. Plenty differentiates men from women. If there was nothing, transgenderism wouldn't exist. The issue is not that men and women are the same, it's that 'man' and 'woman' are complex social roles that, despite how unintuitive it might seem especially to cisgendered individuals like us, have nothing to do with sex and genitals.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Wrathy » Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:58 pm

mic wrote:
Karl wrote: …You aren't a doctor or medical scientist, nor are you trans… Your opinion on when HRT should be administered in teenagers who exhibit gender dysphoria is not particularly well-informed…


Karl, you’ve certainly put me in my place. You are correct – I am neither doctor, scientist nor trans. However, epistemological insiderism aside, this is not a professional symposium and my views are based upon my own research, which has revealed a high recidivism rate where transpeople change their minds or decide to be nonbinary. .


Firstly it's bullshit that you've used the word "recidivism" here. This is a loaded noun because it refers to convicted criminals reoffending. To me it suggests you're not engaging with this subject in a genuine and open way. But whatever.

I'd be interested in seeing your own research, because there is extremely limited data on "changing their minds" or what is more commonly framed as "regret", and that which is available suggests that "regret" is strongly influenced by external factors, such as people finding it too expensive to pay for their healthcare, not having adequate support, or simply wishing they had done it sooner. Indeed, people who do so have a not uncommon tendency to change direction again later in life.

In the vast majority of cases (over 95%) however trans people do not exhibit "regret" insofar as the change is positive to their lives and I think trying to devalue that or take it away from them because you somehow know better is absolutely pathetic.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Tafdolphin » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:23 pm

Loving mic's, derisive, use of the term "hyper-egalitarian" there.

"I really super strawberry floating want everyone to be to be viewed as socially equal! Like, I really strawberry floating want it! So. strawberry floating. Much!!!"

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Karl » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:27 pm

Tafdolphin wrote:Loving mic's derisive use of the term "hyper-egalitarianist" there.

"I really super strawberry floating want everyone to be to be viewed as socially equal! Like, I really strawberry floating want it! So. strawberry floating. Much!!!"

:lol: :wub:

That whole paragraph was very passive aggressive. "Hmph, well now the libs have destroyed gender I guess there's literally no difference between men and women. How confusing. Thanks a lot." I just... don't know how to reply to stuff like that. Skarjo did a good job though.


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