Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Balladeer » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:32 pm

Hexx wrote:
Frank wrote:
Balladeer wrote:People point back to the trans-centric episode of The IT Crowd as evidence that it's always been there, but I'm not sure about that: Douglas is a massive transphobe, but Douglas is just generally awful.


The character is essentially written as a bloke, though. She likes beer and football and arm wrestling, oi oi! It's written exactly like Linehan seems to view trans people - blokes that just look like women.


Yeah that's Lineham's defense. "Douglas is transphobic!"

But every joke is playing on a male stereotype trope from the 1980

She downs pints!
She likes action films

She does all the things a (stereotypical) man does! Isn't that fun.

The closing "punchline" of the episode (after a "hysterical" fight scene in which she's beaten...is She has the strength of the man! Lolololol")

No arguments to that really. I've always come at it from the point of view of she's being treated as a character, and as a woman, and that's something even if the portrayal isn't great; but some nuance is probably the base expected treatment when dealing with this topic. It's also much more recent than I thought (2008), so... yep, fair.

There's no arguing that he's got worse since though.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Hexx » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:36 pm

Balladeer wrote:
Hexx wrote:
Frank wrote:
Balladeer wrote:People point back to the trans-centric episode of The IT Crowd as evidence that it's always been there, but I'm not sure about that: Douglas is a massive transphobe, but Douglas is just generally awful.


The character is essentially written as a bloke, though. She likes beer and football and arm wrestling, oi oi! It's written exactly like Linehan seems to view trans people - blokes that just look like women.


Yeah that's Lineham's defense. "Douglas is transphobic!"

But every joke is playing on a male stereotype trope from the 1980

She downs pints!
She likes action films

She does all the things a (stereotypical) man does! Isn't that fun.

The closing "punchline" of the episode (after a "hysterical" fight scene in which she's beaten...is She has the strength of the man! Lolololol")

No arguments to that really. I've always come at it from the point of view of she's being treated as a character, and as a woman, and that's something even if the portrayal isn't great; but some nuance is probably the base expected treatment when dealing with this topic. It's also much more recent than I thought (2008), so... yep, fair.

There's no arguing that he's got worse since though.


Yeah it's not outright offensive, but it is unfortunate in its choice.

Which if Lineham had respond to with "Yep - missed the mark with that, live and learn. We'll do better" would have been fine. But he's just gone (and gone and gone and gone) this hyper aggressive defensive...which has then turned offensive against anyone part of/supporting/colluding with groups against him

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by mic » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:36 pm

Hexx wrote:...A) Based on what? What's you distinction. Why is pandering to one irrational fear bad, and one irrational fear ok...?


The Equality Act 2010, which I think is very reasonable. I certainly can't fault it otherwise so, Karl, Moggy, the law might not always be right, but I'm certainly happy to go along with it on this one, aren't you? :)

Tafdolphin wrote:...Some studies? Which studies? I've never seen that opinion from any scientifically validated studies, only from certain arenas on Twitter.

And HRT is not simply injecting kiddies with drugs... It comes with years of psychology and therapy to make sure the course is actually what the patient wants and/or needs.


Sigh... this one's a bit old, but I haven't found anything more recent (hence - need for more studies) - https://www.dovepress.com/gender-dyspho ... ticle-AHMT

...and this article is very good, if not authoritative - https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ns/561749/

I appreciate the psychology and therapy, but many change their minds, or reconcile with their biological gender, during their late teens. Also, transitioning is often encouraged by parents and professionals who want to see the child properly gendered one way or the other and as quickly as possible to avoid social stigma, when the child could otherwise go on to identify as intersex, which apparently is also a thing.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Karl_ » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:38 pm

@mic

1. The idea of sharing a changing room with a trans man doesn't bother or embarrass me. I don't care how far along his transition he is. I might be inwardly vaguely surprised if he looked very feminine, but at the end of the day I would just mind my own business.

2. I think anyone who earnestly lives their life as a man is a man. Wholly and truly and "really". Trans men are men.

3. OK, not all forms of prejudice are equivalent, but trans people are an oppressed group subject to bigotry in a way "vegans" clearly aren't really. Being part of the LGBT spectrum, perhaps the closest comparison to being trans is in gay, lesbian, or bi people; but you wouldn't entertain the idea of making gay men use the disabled loos, because you understand that the suggestion we segregate gay men - perhaps justified as "in case they can't control themselves"? - is simply disgusting and without any basis in objective reality. The idea of segregating trans people is equally disgraceful. It's a horrid, awful idea that you've put forward, and I know you think you're just asking questions but you're actually exposing yourself as being very transphobic.

I used trans men as an example so you can't say "eek but you're not a girl!" to me, but there are plenty of reasonable cis women who would echo the above sentiments for trans women.

And nonbinary people should be able to use whatever bathroom or spaces they want to as well. Enbies are just are entitled to use public spaces as anyone else and facilities should be open to them -- preferably most spaces should be made gender-neutral, but where that's not the case, whatever space they're comfortable in.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Karl_ » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:43 pm

mic wrote:The Equality Act 2010, which I think is very reasonable. I certainly can't fault it otherwise so, Karl, Moggy, the law might not always be right, but I'm certainly happy to go along with it on this one, aren't you? :)


Not really. I actually recently took part in a consultation aiming to update the Gender Recognition Act to make it easier for trans people to have their gender legally recognised. This would hopefully have the knock-on effect of giving many more trans people the gender-based protections offered by the Equality Act. I also think nonbinary people need more explicit protections in law.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by mic » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:48 pm

Moggy wrote:1. A transwoman IS a woman. It doesn’t matter what equipment they were born with...


To your mind, does that also apply to transracialism or other forms of body dysmorphia, such as identifying as disabled?

Moggy wrote:2. Real? strawberry floating hell, do you think they are just making it up for attention? Pander? Is it really pandering to somebody who just wants a piss in the toilet that has been assigned to the gender they feel they belong to?...


:roll: No, I don't think they're just making it up for attention. Yes, pander. If you're going to police my wording I'll have to be more careful (bearing in mind that I've had a lot of responses and am going at this as fast as I can).

Moggy wrote:3. Bigotry is bad. Veganism is a choice. Race and gender is not. That’s why we can directly compare discrimination of trans people directly to that experienced by black people, neither has chosen that identity and neither should be forced to go into the disabled toilet like their very existence is shameful...


I'm going to think about that last point...

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Moggy » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:49 pm

mic wrote:The Equality Act 2010, which I think is very reasonable. I certainly can't fault it otherwise so, Karl, Moggy, the law might not always be right, but I'm certainly happy to go along with it on this one, aren't you? :)


Obviously I’m not happy to go with it on this one if it still allows for discrimination.

Until recently same sex couples couldn’t marry (they still can’t in N Ireland). In my lifetime homosexuality was still illegal in parts of the UK.

The law is important, but it’s not always the best way to judge if a certain type of discrimination is fair.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Moggy » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:52 pm

mic wrote:
Moggy wrote:1. A transwoman IS a woman. It doesn’t matter what equipment they were born with...


To your mind, does that also apply to transracialism or other forms of body dysmorphia, such as identifying as disabled?

Moggy wrote:2. Real? strawberry floating hell, do you think they are just making it up for attention? Pander? Is it really pandering to somebody who just wants a piss in the toilet that has been assigned to the gender they feel they belong to?...


:roll: No, I don't think they're just making it up for attention. Yes, pander. If you're going to police my wording I'll have to be more careful (bearing in mind that I've had a lot of responses and am going at this as fast as I can).

Moggy wrote:3. Bigotry is bad. Veganism is a choice. Race and gender is not. That’s why we can directly compare discrimination of trans people directly to that experienced by black people, neither has chosen that identity and neither should be forced to go into the disabled toilet like their very existence is shameful...


I'm going to think about that last point...


Is transracialism a thing? I have no idea, but I wouldn’t support discrimination against them or forcing them to use the disabled toilets.

I’m not policing your wording, but “pander” is a pretty outrageous thing to say when we are just talking about a human being that wants a piss.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by mic » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:56 pm

False wrote:I think you and others are a little bound up in the idea of feeling as though you are the wrong gender is inherently bound up in sexual proclivity

I would strongly lean on the idea that hormones are not issues to -anybody- unless they are exhaustively tested and deemed safe and the person is thoroughly advised of what the process entails (fyi, the process of getting hormones is not as easy as going to the gp and asking, its an extensive, long and often traumatic process for trans people) - but the theory of lowering the age of getting them in the first place isnt as mad as you may assume

its because puberty starts earlier than the age of consent in most cases, and getting the 'correct' hormones as early as possible is often a key part in ensuring the person does not undergo unnecessary trauma as part of the puberty process

also dont forget that trans people can be ftm as well as mtf, but it appears as though the mtf catch the most heat for being sex perverts


I get that but, as Dowbocop pointed out, what if they change their mind, as they are wont to do? Wouldn't it be better to wait and see, at least until they can consent as adults?

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by mic » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:02 pm

Photek wrote:...When you walk down the street and see people, you have no idea if they are actually men or women, you've no proof what so ever so what does it matter to you if someone is biologically a man or a woman?...


Walking down the street, it doesn't matter to me at all.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Tafdolphin » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:08 pm

mic wrote:Sigh... this one's a bit old, but I haven't found anything more recent (hence - need for more studies) - https://www.dovepress.com/gender-dyspho ... ticle-AHMT


At no point does this state that HRT "is like eugenics." It simply posits that more research is needed.

An affirmative approach is increasingly implemented in the health care of gender nonconforming children. This includes, based on a comprehensive psychological and psychosocial assessment, work with the children and their families and schools to support the gender-nonconforming minors to express themselves in a way that feels most comfortable for them. With the starting point that gender presentations are fluid and changing over time, gender variant children need to be allowed to freely explore a range of gender identities and expressions. A debate concerns whether or not a prepubertal child should be allowed to completely transition to live in other than birth gender. Concerns include that childhood transition may be forcing adolescents to proceed to biomedical interventions, as stepping back may be psychologically troublesome, even though identity development has taken a new direction.


...and this article is very good, if not authoritative - https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ns/561749/


I remember this one, it caused a a shitload of controversy by overly emphasising minority cases and generalising all trans charities into one single voice. It also downplayed the psychological aspects of treatment for trans people.

Last edited by Tafdolphin on Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Pedz » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:09 pm

So, as a male if I have sex with a fully transitioned mtf transgender person that would be just straight sex, but some would say it would be gay sex?

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Karl_ » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:09 pm

Tafdolphin wrote:
...and this article is very good, if not authoritative - https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ns/561749/


I remember this one, it caused a a shitload of controversy by overly emphasising minority cases and generalising all trans charities into one single voice. It also downplayed the psychological aspects of treatment for trans people.


Written by the reactionary transphobic bigot Jesse Singal.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Tafdolphin » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:11 pm

Karl wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:
...and this article is very good, if not authoritative - https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ns/561749/


I remember this one, it caused a a shitload of controversy by overly emphasising minority cases and generalising all trans charities into one single voice. It also downplayed the psychological aspects of treatment for trans people.


Written by the reactionary transphobic bigot Jesse Singal.


Oh my god, is it? I didn't notice. That's like quoting Milo on racism.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Parksey » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:14 pm

I'm curious as to how, if a trans-woman isn't in any way "real", then how are they "unreal"? I would imagine the answer is going to be cause they don't conform to rather rigid ideas about gender.

I just finished reading a chapter about this in Sapiens - I noticed the reference Karl made to the Code of Hammer Baby as I am dead clever me - and it was quite interesting. I suggested you read it, mic, as it's engrossing in its own right too.

The book labels gender is social and cultural ("man" and "woman") and sex bioligical (male and female), using makes the argument that not every male is a man and not every woman is a female, largely because of the attributes we have assigned to them over thousands of years of human history.

You could argue that the very labels "man" and "woman" aren't real. They aren't defined by anything except what we've created for ourselves*.

In which case, why would a transperson be any mor (or less) of a danger than anyone else. A female could carry undesirable character flaws (i.e. be a raving pervert or crazed sex fiend) that make them a danger to anyone else using that space. I really don't understand the bathroom argument at all.

*However, the book also goes into how if it exists within nature, it's natural and if it exists in reality, it's real. In which way, therefore, is a transperson either unnatural or unreal?

I've probably hugely simplified the book and hamfisted the references to it. But it just made me think of it when you mentioned what is real about a trans-woman. The answer is: everything. The same as what is real about you or I.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by mic » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:14 pm

Karl wrote:...1. The idea of sharing a changing room with a trans man doesn't bother or embarrass me. I don't care how far along his transition he is...


Me neither.

Karl wrote:...2. I think anyone who earnestly lives their life as a man is a man. Wholly and truly and "really". Trans men are men...


Would you apply this logic to others forms of body dysmorphia, or anorexia?

Karl wrote:...3. It's a horrid, awful idea that you've put forward, and I know you think you're just asking questions but you're actually exposing yourself as being very transphobic...


Well, that makes me sad. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone :(

However, how can anyone come to understand this issue without asking questions? I haven't used inflammatory or derogatory language (unless you count 'pander' :roll: ) and, as someone who must play mental gymnastics to get the right preferred pronoun, I feel I go out of my way to be accommodating. I don't mean or want to be offensive to anyone, but I don't think that means I must alter my perspective of reality.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by False » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:15 pm

mic wrote:
False wrote:I think you and others are a little bound up in the idea of feeling as though you are the wrong gender is inherently bound up in sexual proclivity

I would strongly lean on the idea that hormones are not issues to -anybody- unless they are exhaustively tested and deemed safe and the person is thoroughly advised of what the process entails (fyi, the process of getting hormones is not as easy as going to the gp and asking, its an extensive, long and often traumatic process for trans people) - but the theory of lowering the age of getting them in the first place isnt as mad as you may assume

its because puberty starts earlier than the age of consent in most cases, and getting the 'correct' hormones as early as possible is often a key part in ensuring the person does not undergo unnecessary trauma as part of the puberty process

also dont forget that trans people can be ftm as well as mtf, but it appears as though the mtf catch the most heat for being sex perverts


I get that but, as Dowbocop pointed out, what if they change their mind, as they are wont to do? Wouldn't it be better to wait and see, at least until they can consent as adults?


thats why they are generally given hormone blockers rather than hormone replacements

it just delays puberty until such a point as they are deemed in of right mind enough to make the decision

listen I know lots of trans people and count some amongst my good friends. It isnt a decision that somebody comes to on a whim, nor is it a process that is over and done with in a few months. I dont know any banana split who wants to go through years of physical, mental and financial stress on top of the years of internal torment they have already had, just so that they can rape a woman in a toilet

personal opinion time: gender and sexuality are a spectrum and some people dont fit neatly into the already accepted slots. Cocks and fannies are obviously anatomically different, but because I have a cock doesnt mean that internally I dont feel like a woman or that I dont want to have sexual relationships with men. Some women have cocks and some men have fannies, and its not easy to be in that body and have the outside world deriding and tormenting you as much as your internal psyche

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Drumstick » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:17 pm

Everytime the topic of transpeople comes up anywhere I'm staggered by the furore that appears to surround it. I just don't get it. I'll be the first to admit I'm not particularly knowledgeable on it, but do I care if someone around me is a dude yet identifies as a chick or vice versa? Or if said person was born a woman but now has a cock? No, and neither should anyone else, because they are unaffected. I'm yet to read a decent argument for segregation or the constant demonising of these people.

The changing room example given is this thread is stupid. Does anyone here actually stand around in changing rooms checking out other people's genitals? Just get on with your business instead of instigating faux-outrage, gammon-facing nonsense.

tl:dr, grow up and let people live their lives.

Last edited by Drumstick on Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by mic » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:17 pm

Karl wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:
...and this article is very good, if not authoritative - https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ns/561749/


I remember this one, it caused a a shitload of controversy by overly emphasising minority cases and generalising all trans charities into one single voice. It also downplayed the psychological aspects of treatment for trans people.


Written by the reactionary transphobic bigot Jesse Singal.


OMG I take it back! :lol:

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by mic » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:20 pm

BUT YOU LOT DON'T ACCEPT OTHER FORMS OF BODY DYSMORPHIA!

So why this one?


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