GRcade

Drummy, it's because it makes people uncomfortable. Human beings are simple animals and we always fear what we don't understand. That line was in Batman Begins and everything so it must be true.

We fear "the other" - something that doesn't fit in our confined notion of what is safe or familiar. It could be a foreigner, it could be darker skin, a funny accent.

Back in the 70s, it was probably homosexuality. "Unnatural", innit. Disgusting, right? Against God's law. Just a phase. Something that can be fixed. You're not bisexually you just have preference, pick one and stop being green. If I go to the toilet is a gay guy going to look and me and think "phwoar"? You can't be gay, you're not even camp!

Etc. Say any of that now and you'd probably get pulled up on it. It's been a slow march towards progress now, hit transpeople have been placed much further down the ladder.

A lot of the time it's other people telling them what they should and shouldn't do. What they are and what they aren't.

Also, why do you all know so much about this subject? I'm reading my arse off here!

I know because its personally affected my life and I made it my duty to learn viewpoints and counter-viewpoints before dogpiling like mr linehan

also when it comes down to it, just let other people be, innit

doesnt affect me if you dont identify with your dick, does it? just come at me on the level and with mutual respect we'll go far, I couldnt care less how you feel about your bits or how you like other peoples

mic wrote:Also, why do you all know so much about this subject? I'm reading my arse off here!

I feel like I'm learning a lot in this thread. I'm very pro-trans but there are people in here infinitely more knowledgeable than me and it's really inspiring.

mic wrote:BUT YOU LOT DON'T ACCEPT OTHER FORMS OF BODY DYSMORPHIA!

So why this one?

Literally nobody has said that.

Perhaps this thread would be better off in Stuff, as it only tangentially related to Games.

Moggy wrote:

mic wrote:BUT YOU LOT DON'T ACCEPT OTHER FORMS OF BODY DYSMORPHIA!

So why this one?

Literally nobody has said that.

So you do, then?

I dunno I think its all kind of simple really, how would you teach your kids?

be nice to people and if what they are doing isnt mean or negative to you or others, live and let live

Winckle wrote:Perhaps this thread would be better off in Stuff, as it only tangentially related to Games.

Second.

mic wrote:Would you apply this logic to others forms of body dysmorphia, or anorexia?

Are you really surprised that doctors treat different medical conditions with different techniques? Mate, it's 'cos you can't actually cure anorexia by letting the person be thin. They want to be thinner and thinner and they die before they get there. So that would be a shite treatment, right? But you can alleviate gender dysphoria with transition, and after transition that person can be perfectly healthy. They become comfortable with their gender presentation and can go on to live a long and happy life (with the possible exception of if they are bullied to suicide by transphobes for not passing well enough, or for passing too well, or whatever else cis bullshit they are subjected to). So that's a good treatment overall.

mic wrote:

Karl wrote:...3. It's a horrid, awful idea that you've put forward, and I know you think you're just asking questions but you're actually exposing yourself as being very transphobic...

Well, that makes me sad. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone

However, how can anyone come to understand this issue without asking questions? I haven't used inflammatory or derogatory language (unless you count 'pander' ) and, as someone who must play mental gymnastics to get the right preferred pronoun, I feel I go out of my way to be accommodating. I don't mean or want to be offensive to anyone, but I don't think that means I must alter my perspective of reality.

Cool, OK. I'm not accusing you of asking questions in bad faith, and I'm glad you aren't mean when you meet a trans person IRL. What I'm saying is, when you run through a list of kind of "what about this" gotchas, and when you try to justify opinions everyone's telling you are Not Cool (like your "segregation" thing), it makes it seem like you have a pretty deep base of transphobia to dig up before we can start laying down some genuine acceptance.

If you can internalise one thing, try this: Trans people (inc. nonbinary people) aren't hurting anyone by transitioning or by using their preferred social spaces like any other person would. They aren't the aggressors here. Like Moggy said, they just want to piss.

If you have real problems with that idea, then mate, I dunno, are you really going to be convinced by technical notes about the safety of HRT, or are you just fishing for tidbits to justify yourself with?

Tafdolphin wrote:

Winckle wrote:Perhaps this thread would be better off in Stuff, as it only tangentially related to Games.

Second.

I know what you're getting at but he's been threadbanned so don't worry.

@Winckle: If you still want to recategorise it then go ahead, but please tick the box to leave a shadow topic. Cheers.

By the by, Linehan is now quoting the paper mic linked. Which simply says that more research is needed, but that a receptive response is encouraged.

Karl, you're being incredibly blinkered there. They may also want to do a gooseberry fool.

mic wrote:

Moggy wrote:

mic wrote:BUT YOU LOT DON'T ACCEPT OTHER FORMS OF BODY DYSMORPHIA!

So why this one?

Literally nobody has said that.

So you do, then?

What do you mean by accept?

I said earlier I wouldn’t discriminate on other forms of body dysmorphia, whether I “accept” them or not depends on what it is, what it does and what the medical/scientific opinions are.

Would I let an able bodied transracial transwoman take a gooseberry fool in the ladies loo? Well yeah, why wouldn’t I?

Plot twist: mic is Graham Linehan

Drumstick wrote:Does anyone here actually stand around in changing rooms checking out other people's genitals.

Pedz wrote:So, as a male if I have sex with a fully transitioned mtf transgender person that would be just straight sex, but some would say it would be gay sex?

This is probably a terrible jumping off point for people who aren't already full blown soyboy sjws, but if you want a comprehensive answer to this question, Contrapoints has you covered.

Hexx wrote:

Drumstick wrote:Does anyone here actually stand around in changing rooms checking out other people's genitals.

Obviously not, that would be ridiculous.


I sit down because then I get a better view...


Seriously though, some really interesting discussion going on and I've certainly picked up some bookmarks to follow up on and learn some more.

Tafdolphin wrote:

Squinty wrote:

Moggy wrote:I love Father Ted, Black Books and the IT Crowd, so it’s sad that Linehan is such a twat.

Fair play to everyone that helped raise money.

Another case of separating the art from the artist.

Although that's pretty hard to do in that one IT Crowd where Douglas beats up a trans woman

Seems like an attempt at a slapstick comedy trope to me, they kick the living gooseberry fool out of each other. I'm likely being naive, but I didn't really perceive it in any other way beyond that.

Squinty wrote:

Tafdolphin wrote:

Squinty wrote:

Moggy wrote:I love Father Ted, Black Books and the IT Crowd, so it’s sad that Linehan is such a twat.

Fair play to everyone that helped raise money.

Another case of separating the art from the artist.

Although that's pretty hard to do in that one IT Crowd where Douglas beats up a trans woman

Seems like an attempt at a slapstick comedy trope to me, they kick the living gooseberry fool out of each other. I'm likely being naive, but I didn't really perceive it in any other way beyond that.

It is really, really obviously leaning on 'lol look at this woman who used to be a man being all manly'. I mean, like unbelievably blatant. The 'we used to watch Steven Seagal movies together' bit is further evidence of this. It's a really uncomfortable watch. To be fair, TV has come on quite a bit in a short space of time, it wouldn't see the light of day today.