Re: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:36 am
Stealth Erasure thread?
Games and Stuff
https://grcade.co.uk/
more heat than light wrote:Stealth Erasure thread?
more heat than light wrote:Stealth Erasure thread?
Karl wrote:lex-man wrote:I don't get the gay erasure argument? What are they trying to say, that gay people will be forced to change their gender.
They are """worried""" (in bad faith) that lesbian teens will be pressured into identifying as & then medically transitioning into straight men.
Rocsteady wrote:Not to bring this back from the dead but I have random thoughts when tired/can't sleep.
Say you get into an argument with someone who denies transgender rights and says there are only two sexes due to the xx xy chromosome, what's the rebuttal for this?
Rocsteady wrote:Not to bring this back from the dead but I have random thoughts when tired/can't sleep.
Say you get into an argument with someone who denies transgender rights and says there are only two sexes due to the xx xy chromosome, what's the rebuttal for this?
Skarjo wrote:Rocsteady wrote:Not to bring this back from the dead but I have random thoughts when tired/can't sleep.
Say you get into an argument with someone who denies transgender rights and says there are only two sexes due to the xx xy chromosome, what's the rebuttal for this?
First, you can point out that there's a measurable minority of people who don't fit into the XX/XY binary; having genotypes like XXY, XYY, XXX etc. Then you can point out that there are conditions such as XX Male syndrome where someone presents the physical appearance of a male while having an XX genotype. This is because, contrary to what might seem obvious, the actual genes that control the making of your sex bits are not actually carried on the sex chromosomes. The sex chromosomes instead control which parts of your genome get activated and then expressed in your body. A lot of these alternative combos are completely symptomless too, so with a forum of our size there's a damn good chance that several of our members don't fit into the sex binary and don't even know it.
But that's sort of not the point anyway. Anyone who goes down the biological essentialist line of argument is being disingenuous, because literally no part of society requires a genetic test to evaluate their gender. We don't even check out each others genitals except under very specific circumstances. 99% of the time, when you meet someone new, you don't know their genotype or what's slopping around in their pants, and you don't need to check either to pick up on the social cues that tell you how someone wants to be treated.
If anyone genuinely argues that someone's genotype is an important matter in deciding how to guess someones gender then that person must be presumably running round stealing skin samples to send off for PCR sequencing before they decide on whether to use he or she.
Parksey wrote:I'm curious as to how, if a trans-woman isn't in any way "real", then how are they "unreal"? I would imagine the answer is going to be cause they don't conform to rather rigid ideas about gender...
...I've probably hugely simplified the book and hamfisted the references to it. But it just made me think of it when you mentioned what is real about a trans-woman. The answer is: everything. The same as what is real about you or I.
Karl wrote:...Are you really surprised that doctors treat different medical conditions with different techniques? Mate, it's 'cos you can't actually cure anorexia by letting the person be thin. They want to be thinner and thinner and they die before they get there. So that would be a shite treatment, right? But you can alleviate gender dysphoria with transition, and after transition that person can be perfectly healthy. They become comfortable with their gender presentation and can go on to live a long and happy life (with the possible exception of if they are bullied to suicide by transphobes for not passing well enough, or for passing too well, or whatever else cis bullshit they are subjected to). So that's a good treatment overall...
Karl wrote:...when you run through a list of kind of "what about this" gotchas, and when you try to justify opinions everyone's telling you are Not Cool (like your "segregation" thing), it makes it seem like you have a pretty deep base of transphobia to dig up before we can start laying down some genuine acceptance...
Skarjo wrote:mic wrote:BUT YOU LOT DON'T ACCEPT OTHER FORMS OF BODY DYSMORPHIA!
So why this one?
...Body dysmorphia results in a distorted recognition of your own body. This is why anorexics still consider themselves overweight. Trans people are under no illusion as to what their body, in reality, is. However, the body that they recognise doesn't fit their gender, and so the better term is gender dysmorphia...
Skarjo wrote:...Don't get me wrong, I'm a science teacher and came at this with a very bullish 'can't change your genes, male=man female=woman' view, but luckily through listening to the experiences of trans people and having those biological essentialist views challenged and realising they held precisely strawberry float all water, I changed my mind.
Skarjo wrote:Rocsteady wrote:Not to bring this back from the dead but I have random thoughts when tired/can't sleep.
Say you get into an argument with someone who denies transgender rights and says there are only two sexes due to the xx xy chromosome, what's the rebuttal for this?
First, you can point out that there's a measurable minority of people who don't fit into the XX/XY binary; having genotypes like XXY, XYY, XXX etc. Then you can point out that there are conditions such as XX Male syndrome where someone presents the physical appearance of a male while having an XX genotype. This is because, contrary to what might seem obvious, the actual genes that control the making of your sex bits are not actually carried on the sex chromosomes. The sex chromosomes instead control which parts of your genome get activated and then expressed in your body. A lot of these alternative combos are completely symptomless too, so with a forum of our size there's a damn good chance that several of our members don't fit into the sex binary and don't even know it.
But that's sort of not the point anyway. Anyone who goes down the biological essentialist line of argument is being disingenuous, because literally no part of society requires a genetic test to evaluate their gender. We don't even check out each others genitals except under very specific circumstances. 99% of the time, when you meet someone new, you don't know their genotype or what's slopping around in their pants, and you don't need to check either to pick up on the social cues that tell you how someone wants to be treated.
If anyone genuinely argues that someone's genotype is an important matter in deciding how to guess someones gender then that person must be presumably running round stealing skin samples to send off for PCR sequencing before they decide on whether to use he or she.
mic wrote:...I recoiled from the very idea. However, having introspected a bit, I now see that my opinions do indeed fall in line with certain social constructions surrounding gender. However, I am equally aware that my ideas do not add up, and this giant post (sorry) is my attempt to reconcile my wayward views, thereby potentially reducing my transphobic levels...
mic wrote:...in my defence, I (think I) felt at the time that society segregates on the basis of sex in many different areas, and that this segregation was a good thing because it mostly protected women, for example in sports, female-only domestic violence units, or affirmative action drives to include more women. If such forms of segregation (or positive discrimination) can be a good thing, then it isn't a huge stretch to include usage of public changing and restroom facilities...
mic wrote:...For me to get my head around it, it seems the idea that "a woman is a woman if she *thinks* she is" must be implementable across the board to all occasions where an individual self-identifies as something... *unnatural* (sorry). For example, as somebody posted above (apologies), these ladies are quite representative of transracialism... as with transgendered individuals, they aren't doing it for the attention (I get that!), but because that is how they really feel. All identify as black...
mic wrote:Saying that gender dysphoria is *different* doesn't work - unless you also advocate the acceptance, as a form of psychological treatment, of transracialism and transableism, with the latter potentially requiring surgery that disables. Or not?
mic wrote:I'm not saying transgenderism should be disallowed or invalidated, but I would argue against decreasing the age of consent for HRT, and even possibly increasing it. What else to do with the high rates of gender reconciliation during the late teens?
mic wrote:But... but isn't that the point - to dig? Should I not talk about this? Or must I just blindly tow the line?
mic wrote:BTW, I greatly admire your involvement in changing the application of the Equality Act (is it just that one thing, or are there other avenues for discrimination?).
mic wrote:Skarjo wrote:mic wrote:BUT YOU LOT DON'T ACCEPT OTHER FORMS OF BODY DYSMORPHIA!
So why this one?
...Body dysmorphia results in a distorted recognition of your own body. This is why anorexics still consider themselves overweight. Trans people are under no illusion as to what their body, in reality, is. However, the body that they recognise doesn't fit their gender, and so the better term is gender dysmorphia...
Saying that gender dysphoria is *different* doesn't work - unless you also advocate the acceptance, as a form of psychological treatment, of transracialism and transableism, with the latter potentially requiring surgery that disables. Or not?
Rocsteady wrote:Not to bring this back from the dead but I have random thoughts when tired/can't sleep.
Say you get into an argument with someone who denies transgender rights and says there are only two sexes due to the xx xy chromosome, what's the rebuttal for this?
Karl wrote:mic wrote:...in my defence, I (think I) felt at the time that society segregates on the basis of sex in many different areas, and that this segregation was a good thing because it mostly protected women, for example in sports, female-only domestic violence units, or affirmative action drives to include more women. If such forms of segregation (or positive discrimination) can be a good thing, then it isn't a huge stretch to include usage of public changing and restroom facilities...
Sure, that is a good argument as to why gendered spaces can be useful. Trans women are statistically a particularly vulnerable subset of women - suffering a high rate of harassment, violence, and so forth - so it's particularly important that trans women can access these spaces if they need to...
Karl wrote:mic wrote: ...the idea that "a woman is a woman if she *thinks* she is" must be implementable across the board to all occasions where an individual self-identifies as something... *unnatural* (sorry). For example… transracialism...
I see no medical or sociological reason one would need to compare the two. The biology underpinning gender is very different to that of race, and there is a large body of research on transgender people which establishes an understanding of the condition of gender dysphoria - including transition as the only viable treatment - whereas what causes a person to feel transracial is anyone's guess. There is also a long history of transgender people existing within many different kinds of society, which gives the identity an important cultural context that a transracial identity doesn't have. The comparison is a red herring in this discussion: the two things are of no relevance to each other...
Karl wrote: …You aren't a doctor or medical scientist, nor are you trans… Your opinion on when HRT should be administered in teenagers who exhibit gender dysphoria is not particularly well-informed…
Karl wrote: …I can't make you do anything. I just didn't think rattling off a big list of your hang-ups was necessarily a productive way to engage with this discussion...
Karl wrote: …I think it's unacceptable how invasive and bureaucratic the application for that certificate outlined in the Gender Recognition Act is. I also think it's time we recognise nonbinary people as their own legal gender…
Skarjo wrote:(I'll preface this with saying I've never met, nor talked, with anyone affected by transracialism, and I don't know where I stand on it) …
Skarjo wrote: …With transableism, there are people who genuinely do not recognise their own limbs. I read about a guy who thought of his left leg as so alien to his form that he packed the footwell of his car with dry ice and waited until his leg was numb/dead enough to cut it off himself.
Would I like there to be a therapy where I can tell these people the right super-combo of words that they don't feel this way instead of surgery? Of course. But all evidence suggests that cheat code isn't there. And if there was, does that make them wrong?…
Skarjo wrote: …So I ask you, Mic. What, to you, differentiates a man from a woman?
mic wrote:..you seem to have not engaged with my examples of instances where transwomen might appropriately not be welcome, which were sports, female-only domestic violence units, and affirmative action drives...
mic wrote:...So, transphobia is equivalent to racism, but transgenderism is not equivalent to transracialism?... ...Do transables and transracials not deserve the same sympathies as transgenders[?]... [and more increasingly hysterical paragraphs like this]
mic wrote:My (tenuous, admittedly) point is that other forms of dysmorphia and dysphoria are not worthy of equal recognition to those championing the causes of transgenderism.
mic wrote:Gender and sexuality have been around for ages whereas, race being a relatively recent political construction, transracialism’s cultural context is only now developing because it is perhaps really only now becoming a social issue.
mic wrote:...You are correct – I am neither doctor, scientist nor trans. However, epistemological insiderism aside, this is not a professional symposium and my views are based upon my own research, which has revealed a high recidivism rate where transpeople change their minds or decide to be nonbinary.
mic wrote:Must one have an insider viewpoint on a position to discuss it? Since this topic remains in the Games folder, it seems appropriate to compare that to saying, “but you haven’t even played it”.
mic wrote:How does gender-fluidity factor in to your position [on legal recognition]?
mic wrote:Well, you’re the super-mod who runs the forum (or whatever) and I’m a good forumite, so if you ask me to stop talking about this, I will .
mic wrote:Genuine question, therefore: how should I engage with this discussion more productively?
mic wrote:Skarjo wrote:(I'll preface this with saying I've never met, nor talked, with anyone affected by transracialism, and I don't know where I stand on it) …
Must one have an insider viewpoint on a position to discuss it? Since this topic remains in the Games folder, it seems appropriate to compare that to saying, “but you haven’t even played it”.
mic wrote:Skarjo wrote: …With transableism, there are people who genuinely do not recognise their own limbs. I read about a guy who thought of his left leg as so alien to his form that he packed the footwell of his car with dry ice and waited until his leg was numb/dead enough to cut it off himself.
Would I like there to be a therapy where I can tell these people the right super-combo of words that they don't feel this way instead of surgery? Of course. But all evidence suggests that cheat code isn't there. And if there was, does that make them wrong?…
I do not mean to suggest that transableism or other forms of body dysmorphia are invalid. As Karl points out, anorexia and other eating disorders cannot be supported in the same way as gender dysphoria because support will not improve health. As per your example (I read of a lady whose mental health improved vastly once she had successfully blinded herself), supporting transableism can improve overall health even while disabling. My (tenuous, admittedly) point is that other forms of dysmorphia and dysphoria are not worthy of equal recognition to those championing the causes of transgenderism.
Mic wrote:Skarjo wrote: …So I ask you, Mic. What, to you, differentiates a man from a woman?
I thought I knew, but now… nothing, I suppose. Hyper-egalitarian thinking prevents my mentally imposing any sort of gender-based limitation and even the ability to reproduce in line with gender construction in achievable by (pre-op) transgenders… so no differentiation at all then, which is somewhat confusing as a cis-gendered heterosexual.
mic wrote:Karl wrote: …You aren't a doctor or medical scientist, nor are you trans… Your opinion on when HRT should be administered in teenagers who exhibit gender dysphoria is not particularly well-informed…
Karl, you’ve certainly put me in my place. You are correct – I am neither doctor, scientist nor trans. However, epistemological insiderism aside, this is not a professional symposium and my views are based upon my own research, which has revealed a high recidivism rate where transpeople change their minds or decide to be nonbinary. .
Tafdolphin wrote:Loving mic's derisive use of the term "hyper-egalitarianist" there.
"I really super strawberry floating want everyone to be to be viewed as socially equal! Like, I really strawberry floating want it! So. strawberry floating. Much!!!"