Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan

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Skarjo
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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Skarjo » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:45 am

We should be careful joking like this or Lineham might join.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Moggy » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:02 pm

Skarjo wrote:We should be careful joking like this or Lineham might join.


He's too busy on Mumsnet.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by more heat than light » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:29 pm

Moggy wrote:
Skarjo wrote:We should be careful joking like this or Lineham might join.


He's too busy on Mumsnet.


Invading female safe spaces like some kind of pervert.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by mic » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:32 pm

Apologies for mangling posts.

Karl wrote:
mic wrote:...So, transphobia is equivalent to racism, but transgenderism is not equivalent to transracialism?...

…We therefore don't need to have a conversation about those who consider themselves transracial as a tedious proxy for a conversation about transgender people. You should have the decency to hurry up and make whatever point you want to about transgender people directly rather than wasting time like this...


Moggy wrote:I don’t get why transracialism keeps getting brought up…


I’m not trying to make any point, I’m just trying to learn, which I do by asking questions. Stop assuming that I’m trying to discredit transgenderism – I’m not.
I refer to transracialism as a means of comparison. Earlier in the thread, I was able to achieve a better understanding of transphobia when it was repeatedly compared to racism. I’m not sure why it’s such a stretch to do the same with transracialism. It’s funny how ‘you’ can make comparisons to race but I can’t.

Karl wrote:…Why do you think "epistemological insiderism" is a bad thing in this instance? It's an issue of medical best practice. Laypeople like you have limited insight. That's not an insult…


Certainly, but why must my limited insight prevent discussion, especially when I’ve already learned so much? Which gives me an idea – why not just invite Lineham here? You lot would show him the error of his ways in no time!

Karl wrote:…It's true that outside of here I mostly hang out in explicitly queer-friendly communities where your questions wouldn't be tolerated, but my understanding is that the mods do not want GRcade (for better or worse) to be a "safe space" like I would personally prefer…


GRCade isn’t a safe space?! I got shot down in flames for expressing an opinion which I thought (at the time!) was fairly liberal. Which raises another interesting question: presumably everywhere would ideally be a safe space, but what does that mean? Being free from oppositional thinking? Again with the de rigeur comparison, but I’d rather engage with racist viewpoints than barricade myself away from them. Perhaps its not at all the same thing.

Karl wrote:…ContraPoints, reddit, paywalled journal…


Thank you for these. ContraPoints has answered questions I didn’t even know I had and, although I couldn’t access that journal, the abstract told me everything I needed to know. To be sure, it presented a very positive image of transition success rates. Not sure I’m ready for reddit just yet, since my questions seem to (inadvertently) cause so much offence.

Skarjo wrote: …Quite the opposite. Plenty differentiates men from women. If there was nothing, transgenderism wouldn't exist. The issue is not that men and women are the same, it's that 'man' and 'woman' are complex social roles that, despite how unintuitive it might seem especially to cisgendered individuals like us, have nothing to do with sex and genitals.


Yes, but those differences are just social constructions, changeable within a single generation. A big part of the problem some feminists have with transwomen is that they reinforce the stereotypes those women disdain. Are social constructions just stereotypes or not? If women can do everything that men can and vice versa, then what difference is there? As Ms Wynn pointed out in the ContraPoints video linked above, sexual attraction is based upon those (negative) stereotypes, but if those stereotypes are bad… then doesn’t that either make sexual attraction to those stereotypes also bad, or validate the stereotypes?

Wrathy wrote:Firstly it's bullshit that you've used the word "recidivism" here. This is a loaded noun because it refers to convicted criminals reoffending. To me it suggests you're not engaging with this subject in a genuine and open way. But whatever...


You’re right, I used it unwittingly and this is the second time I’ve been called out for doing that. I’ll try to be more discerning in my choice of words.

Wrathy wrote:…I'd be interested in seeing your own research… In the vast majority of cases (over 95%) however trans people do not exhibit "regret" insofar as the change is positive to their lives and I think trying to devalue that or take it away from them because you somehow know better is absolutely pathetic.


I wouldn’t bother – it was mostly derivations of the 85% figure Karl mentioned (although I didn’t get it from Twitter, or Mums.net). A website he also linked above, Genderanalysis.net, has thoroughly disproved that figure, as well as rubbishing SexChangeRegret.com. I’m sure that anything else I’ve seen will equally be written by a bigot or be badly done research. In fact, ALL of my research was overwhelmingly negative.

Karl wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:Loving mic's derisive use of the term "hyper-egalitarianist" there...

That whole paragraph was very passive aggressive. "Hmph, well now the libs have destroyed gender I guess there's literally no difference between men and women...


Sigh. You assume the worst.

Karl wrote: If a trans woman has been a victim of domestic abuse and needs to access a shelter for women, it is clearly of huge importance that she be able to (as I hope any woman could if she found herself in that terrible circumstance). 2. Trans women are typically subject to a mix of transphobia and misogyny and are therefore as deserving of extra consideration in hiring (etc.) as any other woman …


Of course it is trivial in comparison, but just as relevant to this discussion nonetheless.
Indeed, the movement towards preventing transgender participation in sports seems to be just more discrimination. Perhaps mixed-gendered sports with height/ weight divisions instead? I’ve always wanted to see Serena Williams play against Roger Federer. As pointed out earlier in the thread (by someone), unisexism also resolves the toilet dilemma, but does transgenderism (and gender fluidity) generally want unisexism, or just to participate as their chosen gender (or lack thereof)?
Honestly, I thought that women’s shelters and affirmative action must surely be the exceptions, but it is all just pointless segregation – if they are women then they are women and anyone who doesn’t see it that way is a bigot and should be overruled. **However, while I appreciate the irony of that statement, it was not intended to be passive-aggressive.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Karl_ » Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:52 am

mic wrote:Thank you for these. ContraPoints has answered questions I didn’t even know I had and, although I couldn’t access that journal, the abstract told me everything I needed to know. To be sure, it presented a very positive image of transition success rates... ...it was mostly derivations of the 85% figure Karl mentioned (although I didn’t get it from Twitter, or Mums.net). A website he also linked above, Genderanalysis.net, has thoroughly disproved that figure, as well as rubbishing SexChangeRegret.com. I’m sure that anything else I’ve seen will equally be written by a bigot or be badly done research. In fact, ALL of my research was overwhelmingly negative.

Hey, fair play to you here. It's big of you to admit your sources weren't what you thought they were.

I feel it is a cause of much difficulty for the trans community that a layperson on Google can so readily find, and then parrot, what amounts to hate speech. It's particularly bad in the UK, which is something of an international leader in "academic" transphobia and transphobic "feminism" (terf-ism). Hell, transphobic opinion pieces make it into even The Guardian. It sucks, and sometimes it feels like we're going backwards.

(If you want to read that journal article, you can paste the DOI code I mentioned into "sci-hub.tw", assuming you don't have a moral problem with pirating it. I wouldn't worry -- scientists invariably want their articles to be read, and we don't make any royalties from subscriptions to journals we publish in.)

mic wrote:...I’m not trying to make any point, I’m just trying to learn, which I do by asking questions...

Okay, okay. I'm not looking to stick a boot in here, genuinely, but maybe re-reading the above paragraph I quoted - you contextualised the research you did a bit, concluding you'd essentially been taken in by bigots - you can now see why people were quite hostile to the implied views behind your questions? A question always reveals something about the person's current understanding, after all. It can be really uncomfortable to have to debate someone down from their "misinformed" views, even if they're engaging in good faith, and online one can never be sure of even that. (The phrase Just Asking Questions has become something of an in-joke in the queer community because of how often it's a mask for bigotry!)

I find it fairly easy to move past this kind of thing if someone changes their mind - I'm a scientist, where being wrong is a good thing (and an everyday occurrence!) - but others might even be thinking: "fine, he says he just did bad research, but why was he willing to believe that stuff in the first place? Why did we need to convince him to treat us like any other person?" I'm sure you will have a philosophical objection to that (something like "how should I learn then?", right?), but at the same time I think you might go along with the idea of someone's views/opinions being a reflection of their inner values, so you can perhaps sympathise with it being difficult to tell whether someone who says "can't they just used the disabled loos?" is grossly misinformed or has some deep-seated malice.

mic wrote:Certainly, but why must my limited insight prevent discussion, especially when I’ve already learned so much? Which gives me an idea – why not just invite Lineham here? You lot would show him the error of his ways in no time!

Ha, well, you've answered your own question there (perhaps deliberately?). I don't think anyone will ever convince Linehan of anything, because his questions aren't posed in good faith. Ignorance is one thing, but once hatred has entered a person's heart it takes much more than an Internet argument to heal that.

mic wrote:GRCade isn’t a safe space?! I got shot down in flames for expressing an opinion which I thought (at the time!) was fairly liberal. Which raises another interesting question: presumably everywhere would ideally be a safe space, but what does that mean? Being free from oppositional thinking? Again with the de rigeur comparison, but I’d rather engage with racist viewpoints than barricade myself away from them. Perhaps its not at all the same thing.

Sure, but it wasn't actually liberal (it was - let's not gloss over this - appalling!), and you still weren't banned or thread-banned. :P

I don't think most spaces online need to be thought-crucibles where the very hottest takes are forged into the most controversial and brave opinions. My personal priority - if I were in a position to enforce it, which I emphasise I'm not - would be for this videogames forum to be a place where anyone can log in and chat about videogames without finding any hate directed at them or at who they are (be they trans, black, female, gay, or whatever else -- to paraphrase the excellent YouTuber Shaun [see video on The Guardian above], "there are all sorts of different folks out there..."). I think that's important.

I worry a lot about the paradox of tolerance - how tolerating intolerance leads to the collapse of tolerance - and I think excluding people with problematic views from a community is usually a valid way to protect minorities and avoid tolerating intolerance.

mic wrote:Sigh. You assume the worst.

Well, I haven't forgotten how hot your takes were a few pages ago, and how bad-faith your questions previously seemed, but I'm giving you benefit of the doubt with this post.

mic wrote:A big part of the problem some feminists have with transwomen is that they reinforce the stereotypes those women disdain.

Nah. This one ain't really your fault, but you're making the mistake of taking fascists at their word. You wouldn't pay much mind to a racist's contorted explanation of their racism. Terfs hate trans women because they are bigots and view them as "men in dresses", and that's that.

Trans women who are gender non-conforming - who dress androgynously, or retain some stereotypically masculine features or hobbies - are called out for "not even trying!" by the same terfs that say "womanhood is just short skirts and lipstick to you!" to those who pass.

mic wrote:Are social constructions just stereotypes or not? If women can do everything that men can and vice versa, then what difference is there? As Ms Wynn pointed out in the ContraPoints video linked above, sexual attraction is based upon those (negative) stereotypes, but if those stereotypes are bad… then doesn’t that either make sexual attraction to those stereotypes also bad, or validate the stereotypes?

Well, we live in a world where the concepts of femininity and masculinity exist, and where women are socioculturally associated with femininity, and men are socioculturally associated with masculinity. You can't blame a trans woman for yearning for femininity, because her inner truth is that she is a woman, and the way to express that so that people see it and you start to live that truth socially is by taking on an outwardly feminine appearance. If someone very outwardly masc and hunky and beardy told me she was a woman I would respect that, but it essentially never happens - well, once out of the closet, anyway - because being misgendered is painful, and that woman would realise she "looked like a man" to the rest of society and would typically want to correct that to the extent that she was able to.

There is an ongoing debate in the trans community as to what extent passing should be a goal of a trans person. I think it's totally natural that many trans people place a lot of importance on their passing, but obviously people who can't pass or don't care about passing should be wholly accepted too. My understanding is that the vast majority of trans people do attempt to be as identifiable as their chosen gender as possible. I don't think that presents any problems from the perspective of feminism, at the end of the day it's a woman's personal choice which clothes or how much make-up she wears.

This isn't just a trans issue. Sadly, all women risk being told they "aren't real women" (etc.) if they present masc, and of course men get similar comments if they present in a more femme way. I guess the patriarchal act is in enforcing the gendered associations of styles of presentation, rather than in any individual who happens to present in either way.

Re: romantic attraction, people can't really help what they're attracted to, so whatever. I think making a big deal out of your desired sexual traits can be sexist, but that's something different.

mic wrote:...but does transgenderism (and gender fluidity) generally want unisexism, or just to participate as their chosen gender (or lack thereof)?

A trans person just wants to be treated as the gender they know they are on the inside. They want to see that gender in the mirror, and they want other people to see that gender. So even if you destroyed all social stereotypes of gender, you definitely still wouldn't destroy HRT or plastic surgery or voice training or learning to walk a bit differently (or so on).

Trans communities on the whole absolutely do support things like unisex bathrooms, often out of ideology (arbitrary segregation is bad), but if not then definitely because it makes living day-to-day much easier if no-one can tell you you're using the "wrong" toilet.

In our society as it is I think some gendered spaces and policies are still necessary -- it's good there are women's shelters and female-oriented hiring practices, for instance. Those things are a big help to the women who need them. Obviously in some far-futuristic utopia they might no longer be necessary.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Hexx » Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:32 pm

https://www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/mermaids- ... -fund.html

The National Lottery Community Fund has confirmed that it will be supporting Mermaids with a grant of £500,000 over the course of 5 years.

One of main aims of the grant is for Mermaids to provide local support groups for transgender and gender variant children and their families around the UK. There are few such local support groups at the moment and the grant will change this. This is a fundamental and significant change. The grant means there will now be local support when currently there is none. This cannot be a bad thing. The UK will now be a better place for transgender and gender variant children and their families.

Mermaids warmly welcomes the Fund's decision, following the Fund's review of Mermaids' application for a grant. We are grateful for the Fund for conducting the review in a detailed, thorough, fair and appropriate manner.

For Mermaids, the review was an opportunity both to affirm the value of increasing direct support with local groups, alongside training delivery and research development, and to demonstrate to the Fund that the charity was well positioned to produce and manage these initiatives. Mermaids will now be able do more to improve outcomes and experiences for transgender and gender-diverse children and young people.

During the review, Mermaids was overwhelmed by the support received from our current funders, organisations and individuals. The messages of support and solidarity have been incredible, and have been appreciated by the families that we help and all of our hard working volunteers, staff and trustees.

The review from the National Lottery Community Fund regarding this decision can be found here:

https://www.tnlcommunityfund.org.uk/new ... aids-grant

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Jazzem » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:15 pm

Hexx wrote:https://www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/mermaids-and-the-national-lottery-community-fund.html

The National Lottery Community Fund has confirmed that it will be supporting Mermaids with a grant of £500,000 over the course of 5 years.

One of main aims of the grant is for Mermaids to provide local support groups for transgender and gender variant children and their families around the UK. There are few such local support groups at the moment and the grant will change this. This is a fundamental and significant change. The grant means there will now be local support when currently there is none. This cannot be a bad thing. The UK will now be a better place for transgender and gender variant children and their families.

Mermaids warmly welcomes the Fund's decision, following the Fund's review of Mermaids' application for a grant. We are grateful for the Fund for conducting the review in a detailed, thorough, fair and appropriate manner.

For Mermaids, the review was an opportunity both to affirm the value of increasing direct support with local groups, alongside training delivery and research development, and to demonstrate to the Fund that the charity was well positioned to produce and manage these initiatives. Mermaids will now be able do more to improve outcomes and experiences for transgender and gender-diverse children and young people.

During the review, Mermaids was overwhelmed by the support received from our current funders, organisations and individuals. The messages of support and solidarity have been incredible, and have been appreciated by the families that we help and all of our hard working volunteers, staff and trustees.

The review from the National Lottery Community Fund regarding this decision can be found here:

https://www.tnlcommunityfund.org.uk/new ... aids-grant


\m/ \m/ :wub:

Hope to god this goes same way in changing much of the unfair perception towards them

Last edited by Jazzem on Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Tafdolphin » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:15 pm

Great news!

Gemini73 wrote:You really are just an obnoxious little toad.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Karl_ » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:22 pm

Huge! :wub:

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Pedz » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:32 pm

So, we're supporting people who think they're fish now?

I've never heard of mermaids before, glad that people are getting the support they need and hopefully this will help those who are suffering and change peoples idiotic views.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Ironhide » Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:00 pm

That can only be a good thing, might help to get rid of the stigma associated with trans children and reduce transphobic attitudes.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Green Gecko » Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:06 am

I think it's about time this thread was moved or split. I'm moving it because I'm too lazy to split it.

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