Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan

Cal wrote:Speaking as a man who has actually had a 2-year sexual relationship with a trans (male-to-female), I would just like to mention that, so far, in this thread the only commenter who has come even close to addressing some of the complexities of this issue is mic. All the rest has just been outright bile and blinkered, uninformed hatred directed at Graham Lineham, because reasons.

Jesus, this place can be toxic at times.

Get strawberry floated Cal.

EDIT: Can someone move this thread to Off Topic as it heads towards a more generalised discussion on trans issues? We don't want Cal in here ruining a good thing.

@mic

1. No-one can start hormone replacement therapy until they are an adult. Trans kids usually get counselling aimed at helping them understand their feelings, and support with their social transition (e.g. wearing their preferred gender school uniform). A few on a case-by-case basis might be prescribed hormone blockers, which limit the effects of puberty until they are old enough to consent to hormone therapy. It's fairly safe, and involves a real doctor weighing up any risks. Graham Linehan and his merry band of Twitter friends think they are better than doctors at diagnosing and treating the medical condition of gender dysphoria, and their "manifesto" usually involves raising the age of consent for HRT to 24, which is ridiculous and has no medical basis.

2. Would you want trans women to use male spaces? That doesn't sound very safe for the trans woman. Would you want trans men to use female spaces? That sounds like it would be very unsettling for the women in that space.

@Cal

You sound very Beaver Bothered by this. Not sure what you're upset about but I'd just like to thank your spiritual king Graham Linehan for raising $340k and counting for trans kids. #ThanksGraham

Oh this is gonna get good

Karl wrote:@Cal

You sound very Beaver Bothered by this.

I took a look at the Mermaids website, and I especially like the bit about suicide prevention. Indeed, nothing about them dispensing drugs, or encouraging the use of women-only spaces, so I'm not sure why Linehan focused on them. They still have the lottery logo at the bottom of their webpage, so that's good then.

Moggy, you are correct in your assumption of my meaning and you are certainly entitled to your opinion

Cal wrote:Speaking as a man who has actually had a 2-year sexual relationship with a trans (male-to-female), I would just like to mention that, so far, in this thread the only commenter who has come even close to addressing some of the complexities of this issue is mic. All the rest has just been outright bile and blinkered, uninformed hatred directed at Graham Lineham, because reasons.

Jesus, this place can be toxic at times.

This discussion is about Lineham’s opposition to the Mermaids charity and the response to it.

Lineham’s view of untested drugs are irrelevant as Mermaids don’t hand out drugs.

The “man dressed as a woman to rape women in toilets” bullshit also has very little to do with this thread.

Sounds like Linehan really doesn't have a grasp of the facts and is using his own internal bias and issues to steer things.

Moggy wrote:

mic wrote:

Moggy wrote:
2. So what? A transwoman is a woman, if people are not comfortable with that then that’s their problem.

Well, should that be your decision, as a man?

Which one?

I assume you mean 2? It’s not me making the decision, I’m giving an opinion. And my opinion is that discrimination is wrong.

Pretty much this. If a transwoman (apologies if this is not the accepted/correct terminology) identifies as and is recognised as a woman by the state then why the hell should they be prevented from using facilities set aside for women? Because someone else is "uncomfortable" about it?

What if they were "uncomfortable" sharing facilities with someone of a different race? sexual preference? social class? nationality? You can't just start discriminating against one set of people because another set feels uncomfortable with them for some reason. How many sets of changing rooms would we need in gyms if we went down that route!

Karl wrote:
@Cal

You sound very Beaver Bothered by this.

Cal wrote:Jesus, this place can be toxic at times.

Yeah, but then you log off.

mic wrote:I took a look at the Mermaids website, and I especially like the bit about suicide prevention. Indeed, nothing about them dispensing drugs, or encouraging the use of women-only spaces, so I'm not sure why Linehan focused on them. They still have the lottery logo at the bottom of their webpage, so that's good then.

I believe they can introduce GPs etc who may suggest drugs delaying puberty to a little later (and allow time for councilling etc). But again AFAIK from the outcry at the time that's rare and don't via "proper" channels. It's not the "radical trans activists hand out untested drugs to your children to convert" them type angle Lineham pushes

And he focused because it works (Helen Lovejoy). He went onto Mumsnet (a women only safe space?) to rally the mob.

And he focus on it because he's become polarised down the Twatter rabbit hole in a response to criticism, and now leads crusades against those (or the groups they belong to) that attacked him. He's doubled down so much on this, that it's not pretty much become his online persona.

Karl wrote:...2. Would you want trans women to use male spaces? That doesn't sound very safe for the trans woman. Would you want trans men to use female spaces? That sounds like it would be very unsettling for the women in that space.

IMO, trans people should use separate facilities, either staff or disabled. That's what they are entitled to legally.

Jenuall wrote: ...If a transwoman... identifies as and is recognised as a woman by the state then why the hell should they be prevented from using facilities set aside for women? Because someone else is "uncomfortable" about it?

What if they were "uncomfortable" sharing facilities with someone of a different race? sexual preference? social class? nationality? You can't just start discriminating against one set of people because another set feels uncomfortable with them for some reason. How many sets of changing rooms would we need in gyms if we went down that route!

Again, if women complain about having to share women-only spaces, their complaint must legally be upheld, as long as other facilities can be provided, and most establishments have disabled and staff facilities.

I despair of the de rigueur comparison to people being uncomfortable because of race, class or anything else. Not wanting to share a female-only space with biological males is NOT equivalent to not wanting to share a space with someone of another race or class.

PS, fwiw, I just don't see how it can be acceptable to respond to Cal in that way. Really drags down the tone of the forum.

Trans people are not disabled, why should they use disabled toilets?

You might despair of comparisons to race, class, sexuality etc but that’s probably because they hit a little too uncomfortably close to home. A comparison to “colored” toilets in segregation era America or apartheid era South Africa is perfectly valid.

I agree with you about Cal, calling him names isn’t a great way to respond to anybody. Cal’s arguments are easily defeated without needing to call him a banana split.

mic wrote:PS, fwiw, I just don't see how it can be acceptable to respond to Cal in that way. Really drags down the tone of the forum.

Hey, we all respond to twats in our own way. Mine is telling them to get strawberry floated when they enter positive spaces with lies and disruption in mind. We know Cal isn't here to debate or for rational discussion. He's here to bleat his unsubstantiated alt-right opinions at us. Why on earth would you engage him in any sort of dialogue?

And mic, referring to trans people as disabled is...not a good look.

EDIT: I'm 100% sure you didn't mean it like that, but this 'you're bringing the conversation down' thing is a regularly used tactic by those in the alt-right, used to discredit justified rage against them as somehow uncivil.

Cal deserved to be greeted with anger when the views he holds impede the existence of minorities and the vulnerable. I won't apologise to addressing him as such.

Moggy wrote:Cal’s arguments are easily defeated without needing to call him a banana split.

What arguments?

mic wrote:

Jenuall wrote: ...If a transwoman... identifies as and is recognised as a woman by the state then why the hell should they be prevented from using facilities set aside for women? Because someone else is "uncomfortable" about it?

What if they were "uncomfortable" sharing facilities with someone of a different race? sexual preference? social class? nationality? You can't just start discriminating against one set of people because another set feels uncomfortable with them for some reason. How many sets of changing rooms would we need in gyms if we went down that route!

Again, if women complain about having to share women-only spaces, their complaint must legally be upheld, as long as other facilities can be provided, and most establishments have disabled and staff facilities.

I despair of the de rigueur comparison to people being uncomfortable because of race, class or anything else. Not wanting to share a female-only space with biological males is NOT equivalent to not wanting to share a space with someone of another race or class.

Because someone is either a woman or they are not, and there should only be a single point of truth that attests to which it is. If someone was born as a man but has now obtained legal recognition as a woman then they should be treated as such and allowed to use women-only spaces. Whether that makes someone feel uncomfortable should be entirely irrelevant.

I bring up other factors such as class, race or nationality as those may be other factors which particular people may find make them uncomfortable but which, just like in this case, should have zero significance in deciding whether or not someone has access to a gender based facility.

mic wrote:Again, if women complain about having to share women-only spaces

With other women?

Or are trans-women not women?

And which women are complaining?

How many women have to complain about trans women? 1%? 10%? 51%? Just a single one?

How do they identify a trans woman btw? Is it cus they're obvious with beards etc? (I know you don't mean that I'm being OTT for comic effect- but seriously? How?)

Or is it just the idea that a secret man could be in there? They went through years of treatments (and surgeries) and made life altering choices that would expose them to all sorts of hatred and predjudice just to sit next to Bev from accounting the bog. strawberry floating men, right?

and most establishments have disabled

Inadvertent I'm sure, but that's a really poor comparison to use on an emotive subject.

I despair of the de rigueur comparison to people being uncomfortable because of race, class or anything else. Not wanting to share a female-only space with biological males is NOT equivalent to not wanting to share a space with someone of another race or class.

It's attacking and demonizing a underprivileged minority group based on an irrational fear. It's a pretty fair comparison.

Balladeer wrote:People point back to the trans-centric episode of The IT Crowd as evidence that it's always been there, but I'm not sure about that: Douglas is a massive transphobe, but Douglas is just generally awful.

The character is essentially written as a bloke, though. She likes beer and football and arm wrestling, oi oi! It's written exactly like Linehan seems to view trans people - blokes that just look like women.

Frank wrote:

Balladeer wrote:People point back to the trans-centric episode of The IT Crowd as evidence that it's always been there, but I'm not sure about that: Douglas is a massive transphobe, but Douglas is just generally awful.

The character is essentially written as a bloke, though. She likes beer and football and arm wrestling, oi oi! It's written exactly like Linehan seems to view trans people - blokes that just look like women.

Yeah that's Lineham's defense. "Douglas is transphobic!"

But every joke is playing on a male stereotype trope from the 1980

She downs pints!
She likes action films

She does all the things a (stereotypical) man does! Isn't that fun.

The closing "punchline" of the episode (after a "hysterical" fight scene in which she's beaten...is She has the strength of the man! Lolololol")

Hexx wrote:Or is it just the idea that a secret man could be in there? They went through years of treatments (and surgeries) and made life altering choices that would expose just to sit next to Bev from accounting the bog. strawberry floating men, right?

So much this. The trans discussion always heads straight to 'sex perverts' for some people. If I really wanted to go and hang about in the girls toilets there are easier ways to go about it. So I've heard.

Okay, you all said more or less the same thing.

By law, not wanting to share a single-sex space is NOT discrimination. Not wanting to share a public space with another race IS discrimination.

I did not mean to imply that transgendered individuals are disabled themselves, only that there are alternative provisions which they can use, so it is not as though they can't use the toilet while out, because they can. The Equality Act 2010 says that provision must be made for trans use, but organizations aren't required to allow their use of single sex spaces. I feel that this is as it should be.

Hexx, I think I overstated before - organizations are not required to enforce single-sex spaces, but governmental guidance suggests that they should. Still, I feel that the guidance is correct, and that if even ONE person complains, that complaint should be upheld - particularly in the case of women.

Transphobia checklist
· Trans people should be segregated ✔
· "Biological males" aren't "real" women ✔
· Transphobic bigotry isn't "as bad" as "real" bigotry like racism ✔

Uh-oh mic, it's not looking good.