Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Hexx » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:20 pm

mic wrote:By law, not wanting to share a single-sex space is NOT discrimination. Not wanting to share a public space with another race IS discrimination.

Hexx, I think I overstated before - organizations are not required to enforce single-sex spaces, but governmental guidance suggests that they should. Still, I feel that the guidance is correct, and that if even ONE person complains, that complaint should be upheld - particularly in the case of women.(I moved this)



A) Based on what? What's you distinction. Why is pandering to one irrational fear bad, and one irrational fear ok?
Or
B) Again who's in there but women?

Why would someone complain? As in - in this explanation - what would trigger it?

Are they complaining about a Trans person in the bathroom (again - how would they know?)

Or the IDEA of a trans person in the bathroom?

I did not mean to imply that transgendered individuals are disabled themselves, only that there are alternative provisions which they can use, so it is not as though they can't use the toilet while out, because they can.


As I said inadvertent. I don't think you're coming at this from a place of maliciousness or uncaringly. But I do think you're wrong. (Actually I think you're struggling with the difficult concept of intersectionality and "competing" minorities - but someone cleverer and more eloquent than I can explain that :lol: )

And yeah. Just like it wasn't like the black's couldn't get a drink while out. Because they could. They just had to use the alternative provision provided for them ;)

Last edited by Hexx on Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by False » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:25 pm

but is a legally recognised trans woman not a woman then?

if my passport and id and census report indicates I am a woman, and I identify and present as such, am I not a woman?

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Moggy » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:25 pm

mic wrote:Okay, you all said more or less the same thing.

By law, not wanting to share a single-sex space is NOT discrimination. Not wanting to share a public space with another race IS discrimination.

I did not mean to imply that transgendered individuals are disabled themselves, only that there are alternative provisions which they can use, so it is not as though they can't use the toilet while out, because they can. The Equality Act 2010 says that provision must be made for trans use, but organizations aren't required to allow their use of single sex spaces. I feel that this is as it should be.

Hexx, I think I overstated before - organizations are not required to enforce single-sex spaces, but governmental guidance suggests that they should. Still, I feel that the guidance is correct, and that if even ONE person complains, that complaint should be upheld - particularly in the case of women.


One person? So thousands of women could be fine with a transwoman using the toilet, but just one unjustified complaint and they are thrown out and forced to use the disabled toilets?

I don’t care what the law says, that’s discrimination and pretty disgusting a viewpoint to have.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by mic » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:27 pm

Karl wrote:...No-one can start hormone replacement therapy until they are an adult. Trans kids usually get counselling aimed at helping them understand their feelings, and support with their social transition (e.g. wearing their preferred gender school uniform). A few on a case-by-case basis might be prescribed hormone blockers, which limit the effects of puberty until they are old enough to consent to hormone therapy. It's fairly safe, and involves a real doctor weighing up any risks. Graham Linehan and his merry band of Twitter friends think they are better than doctors at diagnosing and treating the medical condition of gender dysphoria, and their "manifesto" usually involves raising the age of consent for HRT to 24, which is ridiculous and has no medical basis...


Hexx wrote:I believe they can introduce GPs etc who may suggest drugs delaying puberty to a little later (and allow time for councilling etc). But again AFAIK from the outcry at the time that's rare and don't via "proper" channels. It's not the "radical trans activists hand out untested drugs to your children to convert" them type angle Lineham pushes...


Apparently, according to some studies, HRT can be seen as akin to eugenics, since it results in the certain sterilization of the 'patient'. Also, there is increasing pressure (though I couldn't find any from Mermaids!) to reduce the age of consent for the purposes of HRT to well below the age of sexual consent, which is both counter-intuitive and... worryingly suggestive of where this might head next.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Tafdolphin » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:29 pm

False wrote:but is a legally recognised trans woman not a woman then?

if my passport and id and census report indicates I am a woman, and I identify and present as such, am I not a woman?


I think this is the issue: mic is, unwittingly or not, making a distinction between "trans woman" and "woman" which is, I believe, not factual.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Karl_ » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:29 pm

Moggy wrote:I don’t care what the law says, that’s discrimination and pretty disgusting a viewpoint to have.

You don't understand, Moggy: the law is always morally right. The law has never been updated to reflect newer and more enlightened sensibilities, which is why we still use the Code of Hammurabi, the original laws which defined morality forever.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Tafdolphin » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:31 pm

mic wrote: apparently, according to some studies, HRT can be seen as akin to eugenics, since it results in the certain sterilization of the 'patient'. Also, there is increasing pressure (though I couldn't find any from Mermaids!) to reduce the age of consent for the purposes of HRT to well below the age of sexual consent, which is both counter-intuitive and... worryingly suggestive of where this might head next.


Some studies? Which studies? I've never seen that opinion from any scientifically validated studies, only from certain arenas on Twitter.

And HRT is not simply injecting kiddies with drugs... It comes with years of psychology and therapy to make sure the course is actually what the patient wants and/or needs.

Last edited by Tafdolphin on Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Hexx » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:32 pm

Karl got a sass upgrade while away obviously :lol:

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Moggy » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:32 pm

mic wrote:
Karl wrote:...No-one can start hormone replacement therapy until they are an adult. Trans kids usually get counselling aimed at helping them understand their feelings, and support with their social transition (e.g. wearing their preferred gender school uniform). A few on a case-by-case basis might be prescribed hormone blockers, which limit the effects of puberty until they are old enough to consent to hormone therapy. It's fairly safe, and involves a real doctor weighing up any risks. Graham Linehan and his merry band of Twitter friends think they are better than doctors at diagnosing and treating the medical condition of gender dysphoria, and their "manifesto" usually involves raising the age of consent for HRT to 24, which is ridiculous and has no medical basis...


Hexx wrote:I believe they can introduce GPs etc who may suggest drugs delaying puberty to a little later (and allow time for councilling etc). But again AFAIK from the outcry at the time that's rare and don't via "proper" channels. It's not the "radical trans activists hand out untested drugs to your children to convert" them type angle Lineham pushes...


Apparently, according to some studies, HRT can be seen as akin to eugenics, since it results in the certain sterilization of the 'patient'. Also, there is increasing pressure (though I couldn't find any from Mermaids!) to reduce the age of consent for the purposes of HRT to well below the age of sexual consent, which is both counter-intuitive and... worryingly suggestive of where this might head next.


The argument is that puberty causes such massive and permanent changes to the body, that delaying puberty for trans kids is best as it makes transitioning much easier. The counter argument is that kids don’t always know 100% how they feel and HRT will do harm to the developing bodies if the kids change their minds.

I can see both arguments and I’m nowhere near qualified enough to come down on one side.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by False » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:34 pm

mic wrote:Apparently, according to some studies, HRT can be seen as akin to eugenics, since it results in the certain sterilization of the 'patient'. Also, there is increasing pressure (though I couldn't find any from Mermaids!) to reduce the age of consent for the purposes of HRT to well below the age of sexual consent, which is both counter-intuitive and... worryingly suggestive of where this might head next.


I think you and others are a little bound up in the idea of feeling as though you are the wrong gender is inherently bound up in sexual proclivity

I would strongly lean on the idea that hormones are not issues to -anybody- unless they are exhaustively tested and deemed safe and the person is thoroughly advised of what the process entails (fyi, the process of getting hormones is not as easy as going to the gp and asking, its an extensive, long and often traumatic process for trans people) - but the theory of lowering the age of getting them in the first place isnt as mad as you may assume

its because puberty starts earlier than the age of consent in most cases, and getting the 'correct' hormones as early as possible is often a key part in ensuring the person does not undergo unnecessary trauma as part of the puberty process

also dont forget that trans people can be ftm as well as mtf, but it appears as though the mtf catch the most heat for being sex perverts

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Dowbocop » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:36 pm

I always think the changing room/toilet issue in the transphobia debate is a bit of a red herring. Gender neutral toilets are not a radical idea (cafes and restaurants spring to mind), and a lot of swimming pools now have banks of individual changing rooms which remove the need for gendered changing rooms (and as a man who has taken his son to baby swimming classes and used to get stuffed in the disabled changing rooms with hoists and all manner of stuff a toddler can swing from, I feel these are much better!) Much harder to resolve are the issues around things like women's refuges, as these are very vulnerable individuals using an already stretched service, and you can understand why women using the service may feel uncomfortable and not be in a position to make the sacrifice of their safe space that to a non-abused person seems an easy act.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by speedboatchase » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:51 pm

Linehan has been a massive arsehole for years. I think his 'wokeness' gave him a pass in many circles because no matter how bull-headed he was being to the opposition, he was on the 'right' side of the argument. I think inevitably those feelings of righteousness + feeling of needing to claim more spaces to be even more woke, has led him to believe - not unlike Piers Morgan - that he should have an opinion of everything, at all times. I also think the court case radicalised him too. Hadn't seen his tweets in years but took a look today and he's a much angrier person than before. No one is going to be better informed by hearing about this issue from him.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Karl_ » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:52 pm

mic wrote:Apparently, according to some studies, HRT can be seen as akin to eugenics, since it results in the certain sterilization of the 'patient'. Also, there is increasing pressure (though I couldn't find any from Mermaids!) to reduce the age of consent for the purposes of HRT to well below the age of sexual consent, which is both counter-intuitive and... worryingly suggestive of where this might head next.

HRT is not a form of eugenics. Its purpose is not population control, it is a kind of medical treatment for what might be thought of (biochemically speaking) as an endocrine imbalance.

HRT is nothing to do with the age of sexual consent. Its purpose if hypothetically applied to puberty-age children would not be "worryingly suggestive" (what the strawberry float?), it's a kind of medical treatment, and it should be down to doctors to decide what the minimum safe age for that medical treatment is, based on their knowledge of medicine.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by mic » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:53 pm

Karl wrote:Transphobia checklist
· Trans people should be segregated
· "Biological males" aren't "real" women
· Transphobic bigotry isn't "as bad" as "real" bigotry like racism

Uh-oh mic, it's not looking good.


Sir, I reject (and mock-resent) your checklist!

1. Trans people should be segregated because men and women are segregated. If everything was unisex there would be no issue, but it's not all unisex, is it?

2. On what basis is a trans woman 'real'? I WANT TO UNDERSTAND THIS! Must society also pander to trans-racial individuals? People who 'identify' as disabled when they are not? If so, then what the hell is reality?

3. Bigotry is obviously bad, but all forms of bigotry are not equivalent. Bigotry displayed towards vegans is simply incomparable to the suffering caused by racism. Not that trans people don't suffer (US murder rates are shocking, especially for black trans women - (see, Hexx, I can do intersectionality :) )), but equating transphobia with racism is just another version of 'all lives matter'.

This is about more than just dismissing me with 'he's a gooseberry fool' (not that anyone has - yet!). I am very respectful towards trans people, and I don't have any issue using preferred personal pronouns, but to expect me to actually believe something that is not true presents me with an Orwellian nightmare!

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Dowbocop » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:00 pm

False wrote:also dont forget that trans people can be ftm as well as mtf, but it appears as though the mtf catch the most heat for being sex perverts

It's that because women taking on "male" characteristics and roles (leadership, strength etc) is a lot more accepted generally than men taking on more "female" traits (see the recent Gillette controversy)?

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Hexx » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:02 pm

speedboatchase wrote:I also think the court case radicalised him too.

Hadn't seen his tweets in years but took a look today and he's a much angrier person than before.


What's that all about then?

Yeah his tweet calling the Women's March "Traitors" for being inclusive towards Trans etc was....interesting...

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Hexx » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:08 pm

mic wrote:2. On what basis is a trans woman 'real'?


In what way are they not?

Do you understand sex and gender (and the interplay and distinction)

(I'm assuming you mean "real women" rather than you know..."not fictitious")

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Knoyleo » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:16 pm

mic wrote:
Karl wrote:Transphobia checklist
· Trans people should be segregated
· "Biological males" aren't "real" women
· Transphobic bigotry isn't "as bad" as "real" bigotry like racism

Uh-oh mic, it's not looking good.


Sir, I reject (and mock-resent) your checklist!

1. Trans people should be segregated because men and women are segregated. If everything was unisex there would be no issue, but it's not all unisex, is it?

2. On what basis is a trans woman 'real'? I WANT TO UNDERSTAND THIS! Must society also pander to trans-racial individuals? People who 'identify' as disabled when they are not? If so, then what the hell is reality?

3. Bigotry is obviously bad, but all forms of bigotry are not equivalent. Bigotry displayed towards vegans is simply incomparable to the suffering caused by racism. Not that trans people don't suffer (US murder rates are shocking, especially for black trans women - (see, Hexx, I can do intersectionality :) )), but equating transphobia with racism is just another version of 'all lives matter'.

This is about more than just dismissing me with 'he's a gooseberry fool' (not that anyone has - yet!). I am very respectful towards trans people, and I don't have any issue using preferred personal pronouns, but to expect me to actually believe something that is not true presents me with an Orwellian nightmare!

Yikes! with a capital Yikes.

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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Photek » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:22 pm

mic wrote:
Karl wrote:Transphobia checklist
· Trans people should be segregated
· "Biological males" aren't "real" women
· Transphobic bigotry isn't "as bad" as "real" bigotry like racism

Uh-oh mic, it's not looking good.


Sir, I reject (and mock-resent) your checklist!

1. Trans people should be segregated because men and women are segregated. If everything was unisex there would be no issue, but it's not all unisex, is it?

2. On what basis is a trans woman 'real'? I WANT TO UNDERSTAND THIS! Must society also pander to trans-racial individuals? People who 'identify' as disabled when they are not? If so, then what the hell is reality?

3. Bigotry is obviously bad, but all forms of bigotry are not equivalent. Bigotry displayed towards vegans is simply incomparable to the suffering caused by racism. Not that trans people don't suffer (US murder rates are shocking, especially for black trans women - (see, Hexx, I can do intersectionality :) )), but equating transphobia with racism is just another version of 'all lives matter'.

This is about more than just dismissing me with 'he's a gooseberry fool' (not that anyone has - yet!). I am very respectful towards trans people, and I don't have any issue using preferred personal pronouns, but to expect me to actually believe something that is not true presents me with an Orwellian nightmare!

When you walk down the street and see people, you have no idea if they are actually men or women, you've no proof what so ever so what does it matter to you if someone is biologically a man or a woman?

Take some of this:


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PostRe: Hbomberguy is livestreaming Donkey Kong 64 to spite the transphobe Graham Linehan
by Moggy » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:29 pm

mic wrote:
Karl wrote:Transphobia checklist
· Trans people should be segregated
· "Biological males" aren't "real" women
· Transphobic bigotry isn't "as bad" as "real" bigotry like racism

Uh-oh mic, it's not looking good.


Sir, I reject (and mock-resent) your checklist!

1. Trans people should be segregated because men and women are segregated. If everything was unisex there would be no issue, but it's not all unisex, is it?

2. On what basis is a trans woman 'real'? I WANT TO UNDERSTAND THIS! Must society also pander to trans-racial individuals? People who 'identify' as disabled when they are not? If so, then what the hell is reality?

3. Bigotry is obviously bad, but all forms of bigotry are not equivalent. Bigotry displayed towards vegans is simply incomparable to the suffering caused by racism. Not that trans people don't suffer (US murder rates are shocking, especially for black trans women - (see, Hexx, I can do intersectionality :) )), but equating transphobia with racism is just another version of 'all lives matter'.

This is about more than just dismissing me with 'he's a gooseberry fool' (not that anyone has - yet!). I am very respectful towards trans people, and I don't have any issue using preferred personal pronouns, but to expect me to actually believe something that is not true presents me with an Orwellian nightmare!


1. A transwoman IS a woman. It doesn’t matter what equipment they were born with.

2. Real? strawberry floating hell, do you think they are just making it up for attention? Pander? Is it really pandering to somebody who just wants a piss in the toilet that has been assigned to the gender they feel they belong to?

3. Bigotry is bad. Veganism is a choice. Race and gender is not. That’s why we can directly compare discrimination of trans people directly to that experienced by black people, neither has chosen that identity and neither should be forced to go into the disabled toilet like their very existence is shameful.

It’s really not a good look when the characters on It’s Only Sunny in Philadelphia have a more advanced grasp on these issues than you.


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