Hong Kong Protests

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OrangeRKN
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PostRe: Hong Kong Protests
by OrangeRKN » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:38 am

There has been coverage of this since the initial protests on the BBC website and radio, including the suspected Triads involvement through the white shirts (which seems a lot more plausible than a normal conspiracy theory). It's all very worrying and only seems to be escalating, and unfortunately I don't see any desirable outcome at the end.

China has never respected "one country, two systems", they only accepted it following the handover through economic necessity. The British mistake, I feel, was assuming that Hong Kong would have a democratising influence on the mainland, and that it's economic prosperity would serve as a wider political model for China as a whole. That's not what has happened. As Minty says, Hong Kong is diminishing in its economic importance to China, and with it disappears any reason for China to respect the region's special status and autonomy.

News of the Hong Kong protests simply doesn't reach the mainland, or where it does it is through state media which misrepresents both the current situation and the history of the region.

As the protesters continue to outmatch the police in their organisation and courage, China is continually pressed to either capitulate or escalate its approach. What reason does China have to give in to the protests? In the eyes of the ruling party that would be a clear defeat and a challenge to their authority, something they will seek to avoid at all costs. The only other reason to avoid escalation is because of such action's potential repercussions. But what are they? The protests won't spread to the mainland, where coverage is ill-informed or non-existent. It is already confined to Hong Kong itself. The outside world is observing, but other than condemning the state and its actions will probably do nothing but stand by and watch. Britain has a greater interest than most due to the handover and Hong Kong's history, but we are incapable of acting should China renege on the agreement in all but word. Our current political situation only weakens us further. I don't see any other world power willing to step in to assist the people of Hong Kong either. The USA is already in dispute with China over trade, which means that it has already used the main economic tools at its disposal to pressure the Chinese government.

Tiananmen Square demonstrated quite clearly China's propensity and willingness for violent military action to put an end to political protest and civil disobedience. The state has further demonstrated the capability of its propaganda to prevent such violence against its own citizens from becoming itself a political issue. Notably its only in Hong Kong where the event is officially commemorated - in fact plenty of people on the mainland are not even aware it happened, such is the effectiveness of state control of the media and mass communication. Individual dissidents too are quickly identified and strong-armed by the state. Elsewhere in China we can seen an ongoing cultural genocide unfolding against the Uyghur people, with huge concentration camps being built and at this very moment in use. The world has seen this, and done nothing about it. If that can be allowed to happen, then the tragic escalation of violence that seems ready to be unleashed on the people of Hong Kong will be allowed to happen, and it makes me incredibly angry and sad.

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jawafour
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PostRe: Hong Kong Protests
by jawafour » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:43 am

Minty14 wrote:After the handover from the UK to China, the agreement was that HK would not come under full Chinese rule until 2047.

Yeah, reading up on the handover it seems that the area would, as a 'special administrative region" of China, have a degree of autonomy for a period of fifty years. I guess the issue boils down to what people consider as autonomy; how and where does this apply? Half-way through that period, should gradual changes be put in place or should things remain the same until 2047?

Knoyleo wrote:That's what currently happens in Hong Kong under the one country, two systems principle...

...Most important of all is that Hong Kong people have never had any say in their own destiny. The current arrangement sees the territory bestowed with the most autonomy it could have, but it's being eroded, and people aren't happy.

There are some pro Beijing voices within Hong Kong, but they're far outnumbered by those who do not want to become just another part of China.

It's definitely a difficult situation. I suspect that China was never going to allow Hong Kong (or Macau, the other area in the same position) to operate as fully independent areas forever. It appears that the majority of Hong Kong people wish to proceed as an independent country rather than joining a bigger block.

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Tineash
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PostRe: Hong Kong Protests
by Tineash » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:46 am

There's nothing China takes more seriously than it's own territorial integrity and sovereignty. This has no happy ending.

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Skarjo
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PostRe: Hong Kong Protests
by Skarjo » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:49 am

I have no idea what HK’ers thought was gonna happen after the handover, but this isn’t even halfway through, and as ‘gently gently’ trickling in of new Chinese policies, I don’t think ‘We can extradite you to China for crimes that are not actually illegal in HK and try you in secret’ is not exactly putting Mandarin next to Cantonese on the road signs.

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Knoyleo
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PostRe: Hong Kong Protests
by Knoyleo » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:53 am

Skarjo wrote:I have no idea what HK’ers thought was gonna happen after the handover, but this isn’t even halfway through, and as ‘gently gently’ trickling in of new Chinese policies, I don’t think ‘We can extradite you to China for crimes that are not actually illegal in HK and try you in secret’ is not exactly putting Mandarin next to Cantonese on the road signs.

Aren't they the sane written, and the difference is in the pronunciation?

(Cantonese uses traditional characters more than mandarin, maybe? I'm not sure)

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KK
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PostRe: Hong Kong Protests
by KK » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:00 am

They were interviewing some protesters on CNN the other day and one of them said she wanted them back under British rule again, which sounded fantastically delusional.

Even the mere lightest of intervention (i.e. comment) from the UK government is met with extremely short shrift from the Chinese.

Should the situation become really bad, the only thing the international community can do is to move its manufacturing out of the country.

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Skarjo
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PostRe: Hong Kong Protests
by Skarjo » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:01 am

Knoyleo wrote:
Skarjo wrote:I have no idea what HK’ers thought was gonna happen after the handover, but this isn’t even halfway through, and as ‘gently gently’ trickling in of new Chinese policies, I don’t think ‘We can extradite you to China for crimes that are not actually illegal in HK and try you in secret’ is not exactly putting Mandarin next to Cantonese on the road signs.

Aren't they the sane written, and the difference is in the pronunciation?

(Cantonese uses traditional characters more than mandarin, maybe? I'm not sure)


The biggest differences are def in the pronunciation but I do think my students have told me that there’s also differences in the writing. Maybe that’s just writing their names maybe?

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PostRe: Hong Kong Protests
by Karl_ » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:24 am

Pedz wrote:This how the UK will look come November the 1st?

Having our freedom curtailed by authoritarians (even more so than now)? Yes.

Protesting en masse; let alone in clever, effective ways? Probably not, as much as it pains me to say it.

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PostRe: Hong Kong Protests
by Lotus » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:28 am

I really like Hong Kong. It's a shame to see so much unrest and violence there. It's concerning that China is now calling the protestors terrorists, and there's been movement of military vehicles. Can't see how it ends - the protestors don't look like backing down, but China isn't exactly going to either. Could end badly. :dread:

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Knoyleo
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PostRe: Hong Kong Protests
by Knoyleo » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:55 pm

Knoyleo wrote:Oh look, the police are dressing up as protesters and carrying out violent arrests.

https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/08/12/v ... rotesters/



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Ironhide
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PostRe: Hong Kong Protests
by Ironhide » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:10 pm

I despise the way the Chinese government operates and treats its citizens but all I can see happening here is a repeat of Tiananmen square on a larger scale, especially if news of what is actually happening manages get across to the mainland without the state media putting its spin on things.

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Ironhide
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PostRe: Hong Kong Protests
by Ironhide » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:15 pm

KK wrote:Should the situation become really bad, the only thing the international community can do is to move its manufacturing out of the country.


Unfortunately that won't happen, most manufacturers don't seem to care about anything but profit margins so will turn a blind eye while ever China offers a cheap workforce.

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The Watching Artist
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PostRe: Hong Kong Protests
by The Watching Artist » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:19 pm

Karl_ wrote:
Pedz wrote:This how the UK will look come November the 1st?

Having our freedom curtailed by authoritarians (even more so than now)? Yes.

Protesting en masse; let alone in clever, effective ways? Probably not, as much as it pains me to say it.

Just watch Years and Years for an accurate forecast.

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No:1 Final Fantasy Fan
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PostRe: Hong Kong Protests
by No:1 Final Fantasy Fan » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:45 pm

Interesting...https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -tugendhat.

Should the citizens of Hong Kong be given full British Nationality? Which will reassure them of their future. Still wouldn't solve the issue that their home HK will be under the rule of China in the future though.

I actually got my HK ID card last year for the "right to land" not a "permanent citizen". Basically the right to live and work there permanently as my parents are from HK but I was born here.

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captain red dog
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PostRe: Hong Kong Protests
by captain red dog » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:14 pm

Kind of feel we should have held an independence referendum (yes I know, one of those) in the 70s or 80s so that HK could vote for self determination.

Once we withdrew, it was only a matter of time before China started acting like this.

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Knoyleo
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PostRe: Hong Kong Protests
by Knoyleo » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:26 pm

captain red dog wrote:Kind of feel we should have held an independence referendum (yes I know, one of those) in the 70s or 80s so that HK could vote for self determination.

Once we withdrew, it was only a matter of time before China started acting like this.

Wind up China by undermining a 100 year land lease deal in the middle of the cold war? I don't think that would have gone well at all.

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PostRe: Hong Kong Protests
by Squinty » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:29 pm

The Watching Artist wrote:
Karl_ wrote:
Pedz wrote:This how the UK will look come November the 1st?

Having our freedom curtailed by authoritarians (even more so than now)? Yes.

Protesting en masse; let alone in clever, effective ways? Probably not, as much as it pains me to say it.

Just watch Years and Years for an accurate forecast.


As long as I can buy a domestic robot with added kinky functionality, I'll be happy enough.

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The Watching Artist
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PostRe: Hong Kong Protests
by The Watching Artist » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:15 pm

Squinty wrote:
The Watching Artist wrote:
Karl_ wrote:
Pedz wrote:This how the UK will look come November the 1st?

Having our freedom curtailed by authoritarians (even more so than now)? Yes.

Protesting en masse; let alone in clever, effective ways? Probably not, as much as it pains me to say it.

Just watch Years and Years for an accurate forecast.


As long as I can buy a domestic robot with added kinky functionality, I'll be happy enough.

Only if you put a picture of me on it.

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Squinty
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PostRe: Hong Kong Protests
by Squinty » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:33 pm

The Watching Artist wrote:
Squinty wrote:
The Watching Artist wrote:
Karl_ wrote:
Pedz wrote:This how the UK will look come November the 1st?

Having our freedom curtailed by authoritarians (even more so than now)? Yes.

Protesting en masse; let alone in clever, effective ways? Probably not, as much as it pains me to say it.

Just watch Years and Years for an accurate forecast.


As long as I can buy a domestic robot with added kinky functionality, I'll be happy enough.

Only if you put a picture of me on it.


That was the plan :datass:

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The Watching Artist
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PostRe: Hong Kong Protests
by The Watching Artist » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:38 am

Squinty wrote:
The Watching Artist wrote:
Squinty wrote:
The Watching Artist wrote:
Karl_ wrote:
Pedz wrote:This how the UK will look come November the 1st?

Having our freedom curtailed by authoritarians (even more so than now)? Yes.

Protesting en masse; let alone in clever, effective ways? Probably not, as much as it pains me to say it.

Just watch Years and Years for an accurate forecast.


As long as I can buy a domestic robot with added kinky functionality, I'll be happy enough.

Only if you put a picture of me on it.


That was the plan :datass:

:datass:

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