I think as Moggy says, they just needed a decent story arc from the start. They set up a lot of mystery in TFA but going a different path in TLJ totally screwed up the coherence of the trilogy.
I saw a lot of comments saying they had gone too SJW, or too political, but I never really felt that. Rey is a bit overpowered and as a character she never really grew, but that's entirely the fault of the writers. Similarly with Rose, I thought the actress playing her was pretty good, and the character could have fit in the universe, but the story she had was absolutely terrible and made no sense.
Even the bit the man babies cry about, Poe and Admiral Holdo, I actually think that would have been a really great story to tell. They just really badly wrote it, it made both characters seem unlikeable, and at the end, neither character actually grew over the course of the film.
So if they had planned the story from the start, they could have kept pretty much most of the plot points. They could even have set up Palpatine in TFA with a few sneaky nods. I don't think JJ Abrams had planned to bring in Palpatine but basically had no choice was Snoke was killed off. Even at that point, they could have had Kylo take his place as the top bad guy and could even have done the same redemption arc, but JJ seemed to want to course correct too much.
That said, I really don't think it's the disaster everyone seems to be suggesting. I think each film is decent enough on their own merits, but as a trilogy and as a wider part of a series, they were just too rushed and poorly planned right from day one when Disney bought the franchise.
Not a massive change really but I do wish they'd have more of a time jump between films like the other trilogies had. As it is it hardly feels like much of a war going on when it seems like the entire events of this trilogy takes place over a matter of weeks, if that.
TLJ didn't have much choice starting immediately after TFA given how that film ended and after looking it up, apparently there's a year gap between TLJ and RoS, although there isn't much in the film to imply that.
OrangeXMS wrote:How would you fix the Star Wars sequel trilogy? (I thought this would be better as a new thread, so the ROS spoiler thread can continue be used to discuss that film as people see it.)
Keeping the same basic plot (so not just writing an entirely different trilogy about something else), what would you change - if anything - to make it a better trilogy and end to the nine film saga? Here is my shot at a rewrite:
TFA's text crawl and opening act explicitly establishes how the new conflict between the First Order and the Resistance came about. Specifically that following ROTJ the galaxy was split in two between the New Republic and the remains of the Galactic Empire. Following the war an uneasy peace has held for years, but now a new extreme faction called The First Order has risen to prominence within the remains of the Empire, led by Supreme Leader Snoke, a mad failed clone of Emperor Palpatine grown in secret, rumoured to have returned from the Sith's legendary hidden home world. Unwilling to openly declare war and break the peace, the New Republic instead secretly support Leia in the establishment of a Resistance across the Imperial controlled worlds.
The Resistance then discover that The First Order has been developing Death Star technology, in direct violation of the peace treaty between the Empire and the New Republic. Not only have they resurrected the planet-destroying technology, but they have succeeded in minituarizing it enough to fit onto a Star Destroyer (aka a single Star Destroyer like those from ROS replacing Starkiller Base). With the New Republic still unwilling to break the peace, it falls to the Resistance to destroy this new weapon that threatens the Galaxy.
The Last Jedi then follows the destruction of said Star Destroyer with The First Order hunting the Resistance in retaliation. Rey and Kylo together kill Snoke, but Rey refuses to join Kylo who takes over as supreme leader (just as in the actual film). Meanwhile the Resistance make a last stand on Crait, but their desperate call for help to the New Republic goes unanswered, its elite unwilling to put a decisive end to The First Order as it is revealed they are profiting from the arms sales in a conflict between The First Order and the Resistance of their own creation. Kylo travels to the senate and reaffirms the Empire's commitment to peace with the New Republic, despite strong objection from Leia who also returns to the senate.
Rise of Skywalker opens with the return of the Emperor - not a failed clone as Snoke was, but a success containing the Emperor's actual consciousness, who has been on the Sith homeworld this entire time regaining his power. Worse yet, he has not only one Star Destroyer outfitted with miniaturized Death Star technology, like the one the Resistance destroyed in TFA, but a whole fleet. He gifts the ships to The First Order, on the agreement that Kylo brings him Rey, the new Jedi trained by Luke, as the Emperor wishes to finally destroy the Jedi. The fleet is deployed as The First Order declares open war against the New Republic - a Star Destroyer appears in orbit above the senate planet, destroying it. Leia, having returned to the senate to try and persuade the republic to take on the First Order, dies in the attack. That moment happens as Rey and Kylo are fighting, and the loss of his mother distracts Kylo long enough for Rey to beat him (just as happenned in the film) and turn him back to the light. General Hux however usurps Kylo as leader of The First Order, pledging full allegiance to the Emperor, leaving Kylo powerless to stop the war. As the remaining armies of the New Republic fight desparately against the Star Destroyer fleet, the Resistance watch on, unwilling to help the New Republic as the New Republic had abandoned them on Crait. Rey and Kylo both head to Exagol to face the Emperor. They discover that the Emperor had a backdoor into every Star Destroyer of his fleet, a Final Order that would let him take direct control despite having gifted the ships. After defeating the Emperor Rey transmits the codes to the Resistance. The Resistance head to the battle between the New Republic and the First Order, using the codes to take remote control of the Star Destroyers, stopping the battle, saving the New Republic, and forcibly ending the war. With the Emperor dead Kylo takes back command from Hux, and both the New Republic and the First Order are made to surrender to the Resistance, uniting the galaxy.
OrangeXMS wrote:How would you fix the Star Wars sequel trilogy? (I thought this would be better as a new thread, so the ROS spoiler thread can continue be used to discuss that film as people see it.)
Keeping the same basic plot (so not just writing an entirely different trilogy about something else), what would you change - if anything - to make it a better trilogy and end to the nine film saga? Here is my shot at a rewrite:
TFA's text crawl and opening act explicitly establishes how the new conflict between the First Order and the Resistance came about. Specifically that following ROTJ the galaxy was split in two between the New Republic and the remains of the Galactic Empire. Following the war an uneasy peace has held for years, but now a new extreme faction called The First Order has risen to prominence within the remains of the Empire, led by Supreme Leader Snoke, a mad failed clone of Emperor Palpatine grown in secret, rumoured to have returned from the Sith's legendary hidden home world. Unwilling to openly declare war and break the peace, the New Republic instead secretly support Leia in the establishment of a Resistance across the Imperial controlled worlds.
The Resistance then discover that The First Order has been developing Death Star technology, in direct violation of the peace treaty between the Empire and the New Republic. Not only have they resurrected the planet-destroying technology, but they have succeeded in minituarizing it enough to fit onto a Star Destroyer (aka a single Star Destroyer like those from ROS replacing Starkiller Base). With the New Republic still unwilling to break the peace, it falls to the Resistance to destroy this new weapon that threatens the Galaxy.
The Last Jedi then follows the destruction of said Star Destroyer with The First Order hunting the Resistance in retaliation. Rey and Kylo together kill Snoke, but Rey refuses to join Kylo who takes over as supreme leader (just as in the actual film). Meanwhile the Resistance make a last stand on Crait, but their desperate call for help to the New Republic goes unanswered, its elite unwilling to put a decisive end to The First Order as it is revealed they are profiting from the arms sales in a conflict between The First Order and the Resistance of their own creation. Kylo travels to the senate and reaffirms the Empire's commitment to peace with the New Republic, despite strong objection from Leia who also returns to the senate.
Rise of Skywalker opens with the return of the Emperor - not a failed clone as Snoke was, but a success containing the Emperor's actual consciousness, who has been on the Sith homeworld this entire time regaining his power. Worse yet, he has not only one Star Destroyer outfitted with miniaturized Death Star technology, like the one the Resistance destroyed in TFA, but a whole fleet. He gifts the ships to The First Order, on the agreement that Kylo brings him Rey, the new Jedi trained by Luke, as the Emperor wishes to finally destroy the Jedi. The fleet is deployed as The First Order declares open war against the New Republic - a Star Destroyer appears in orbit above the senate planet, destroying it. Leia, having returned to the senate to try and persuade the republic to take on the First Order, dies in the attack. That moment happens as Rey and Kylo are fighting, and the loss of his mother distracts Kylo long enough for Rey to beat him (just as happenned in the film) and turn him back to the light. General Hux however usurps Kylo as leader of The First Order, pledging full allegiance to the Emperor, leaving Kylo powerless to stop the war. As the remaining armies of the New Republic fight desparately against the Star Destroyer fleet, the Resistance watch on, unwilling to help the New Republic as the New Republic had abandoned them on Crait. Rey and Kylo both head to Exagol to face the Emperor. They discover that the Emperor had a backdoor into every Star Destroyer of his fleet, a Final Order that would let him take direct control despite having gifted the ships. After defeating the Emperor Rey transmits the codes to the Resistance. The Resistance head to the battle between the New Republic and the First Order, using the codes to take remote control of the Star Destroyers, stopping the battle, saving the New Republic, and forcibly ending the war. With the Emperor dead Kylo takes back command from Hux, and both the New Republic and the First Order are made to surrender to the Resistance, uniting the galaxy.
What a strawberry floatin nerd smh
At least he didn’t introduce a new character that everyone lives and always saves the day - O’ranje Ra-koon
captain red dog wrote:Similarly with Rose, I thought the actress playing her was pretty good, and the character could have fit in the universe, but the story she had was absolutely terrible and made no sense.
If you need it to be spelled out...
As portrayed by Kelly Marie Tran, Rose Tico is one of the many bright spots of the 2017 film Star Wars: The Last Jedi. When we meet Rose, it’s as she’s grieving over the loss of her sister Paige, whose act of bravery in the opening setpiece saves the Resistance from total destruction [thanks to Poe's arrogance]. Rose is a mechanic we meet via Finn, the ex-Stormtrooper who works with the Resistance. Finn (John Boyega) makes a thorny first impression with Rose, who idolizes the young hero until she realizes that he’s attempting to steal an escape pod so that he can reunite with Rey (Daisy Ridley).
Rose’s resolve in the face of terror and cynicism — even though Finn’s reasons for wanting to take the escape pod are arguably noble if self-involved, she’s instantly unwilling to let him desert the rest of the group — is admirable in part because it ends up inspiring Finn throughout The Last Jedi. Her character arc in the Rian Johnson-directed film concludes with her stopping Finn from sacrificing himself for the good of the group. After she takes a ship of her own to crash into his to stop himself from a kamikaze mission, she espouses the film’s overall message: “That’s how we’re gonna win. Not fighting what we hate. Saving what we love.”
captain red dog wrote:Similarly with Rose, I thought the actress playing her was pretty good, and the character could have fit in the universe, but the story she had was absolutely terrible and made no sense.
If you need it to be spelled out...
As portrayed by Kelly Marie Tran, Rose Tico is one of the many bright spots of the 2017 film Star Wars: The Last Jedi. When we meet Rose, it’s as she’s grieving over the loss of her sister Paige, whose act of bravery in the opening setpiece saves the Resistance from total destruction [thanks to Poe's arrogance]. Rose is a mechanic we meet via Finn, the ex-Stormtrooper who works with the Resistance. Finn (John Boyega) makes a thorny first impression with Rose, who idolizes the young hero until she realizes that he’s attempting to steal an escape pod so that he can reunite with Rey (Daisy Ridley).
Rose’s resolve in the face of terror and cynicism — even though Finn’s reasons for wanting to take the escape pod are arguably noble if self-involved, she’s instantly unwilling to let him desert the rest of the group — is admirable in part because it ends up inspiring Finn throughout The Last Jedi. Her character arc in the Rian Johnson-directed film concludes with her stopping Finn from sacrificing himself for the good of the group. After she takes a ship of her own to crash into his to stop himself from a kamikaze mission, she espouses the film’s overall message: “That’s how we’re gonna win. Not fighting what we hate. Saving what we love.”
It missed out the bit at the end where they magically warp back into the base just in time for the laser to fire at all the people they saved with love.