If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?

Fed up talking videogames? Why?
User avatar
Tomous
Member
Joined in 2010
AKA: Vampbuster

PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Tomous » Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:31 am

Moggy wrote:I see the freedom of speech loving flag shaggers are currently furious because Huw Edwards posted a picture of himself with the Welsh flag. The BBC need to sack him for this apparently.

It's almost like they don't actually believe in freedom of speech or being proud of your country's flag....



RESPECT THE FLAG! NO NOT YOUR FLAG!

Image
User avatar
Squinty
Member
Joined in 2009
Location: Norn Oirland

PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Squinty » Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:38 am

Tomous wrote:Ralph Fiennes has outed himself as a bigot, or at least a bigot sympathiser.

"I can’t understand the vitriol directed at her," the actor told The Telegraph in an interview published Wednesday. "I can understand the heat of an argument, but I find this age of accusation and the need to condemn irrational. I find the level of hatred that people express about views that differ from theirs, and the violence of language towards others, disturbing."

Fiennes split with many of his fellow Harry Potter castmates — including stars Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson and Rupert Grint — who have reacted to the uproar by issuing statements of support for the trans community.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/theatre/wha ... emotional/


It is utterly awful how acceptable transphobia is in society.


He's likely referring to the vast amount of death threats she has got over expressing her views. Which if that's the case, is fair enough in my view.

You can decide not agree with her and still find that abhorrent.

User avatar
Prototype
Member
Joined in 2008

PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Prototype » Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:56 am

She took exception to women being referred to as “people who menstruate” as opposed to women if I recall correctly? Followed up by tweets of how she would march for the rights of any trans person who was discriminated against.

User avatar
Tomous
Member
Joined in 2010
AKA: Vampbuster

PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Tomous » Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:16 pm

Prototype wrote:She took exception to women being referred to as “people who menstruate” as opposed to women if I recall correctly? Followed up by tweets of how she would march for the rights of any trans person who was discriminated against.



No, she is a huge TERF

twitter.com/Carter_AndrewJ/status/1270787941275762689


Image
User avatar
Tomous
Member
Joined in 2010
AKA: Vampbuster

PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Tomous » Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:29 pm

Squinty wrote:
Tomous wrote:Ralph Fiennes has outed himself as a bigot, or at least a bigot sympathiser.

"I can’t understand the vitriol directed at her," the actor told The Telegraph in an interview published Wednesday. "I can understand the heat of an argument, but I find this age of accusation and the need to condemn irrational. I find the level of hatred that people express about views that differ from theirs, and the violence of language towards others, disturbing."

Fiennes split with many of his fellow Harry Potter castmates — including stars Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson and Rupert Grint — who have reacted to the uproar by issuing statements of support for the trans community.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/theatre/wha ... emotional/


It is utterly awful how acceptable transphobia is in society.


He's likely referring to the vast amount of death threats she has got over expressing her views. Which if that's the case, is fair enough in my view.

You can decide not agree with her and still find that abhorrent.


When someone is using their platform to spread hate the primary concern shouldn't be to protect the bigot.

Image
User avatar
Karl_
Dr. Nyaaa~!
Dr. Nyaaa~!
Joined in 2008

PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Karl_ » Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:35 pm

It goes without saying I don't condone death threats but I also have absolutely no sympathy if someone gets vitriol for using their wealth and power to organise a hate movement of bigots against a minority group.

User avatar
Squinty
Member
Joined in 2009
Location: Norn Oirland

PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Squinty » Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:04 pm

Tomous wrote:
Squinty wrote:
Tomous wrote:Ralph Fiennes has outed himself as a bigot, or at least a bigot sympathiser.

"I can’t understand the vitriol directed at her," the actor told The Telegraph in an interview published Wednesday. "I can understand the heat of an argument, but I find this age of accusation and the need to condemn irrational. I find the level of hatred that people express about views that differ from theirs, and the violence of language towards others, disturbing."

Fiennes split with many of his fellow Harry Potter castmates — including stars Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson and Rupert Grint — who have reacted to the uproar by issuing statements of support for the trans community.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/theatre/wha ... emotional/


It is utterly awful how acceptable transphobia is in society.


He's likely referring to the vast amount of death threats she has got over expressing her views. Which if that's the case, is fair enough in my view.

You can decide not to agree with her and still find that abhorrent.


When someone is using their platform to spread hate the primary concern shouldn't be to protect the bigot.


Oh, of course. But in this instance, it can and should be called out as a secondary concern. I don't think that's unreasonable.

User avatar
Karl_
Dr. Nyaaa~!
Dr. Nyaaa~!
Joined in 2008

PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Karl_ » Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:28 pm

He didn't "call it out as a secondary concern", though, did he? He did an interview with a far-right newspaper in which he defended her uncritically, talking a load of culture war shite, probably looking for easy gammon clicks while promoting a play he's in:

The Telegraph wrote:Of course, Fiennes’s position at the front-line of the arts could be hazardous, as the culture wars with their fast judgments and attempted cancellations intensify. He offers up particular despair at the treatment meted out to JK Rowling in the wake of her engagement with trans issues. “I can’t understand the vitriol directed at her. I can understand the heat of an argument, but I find this age of accusation and the need to condemn irrational. I find the level of hatred that people express about views that differ from theirs, and the violence of language towards others, disturbing.”

He also offers me a keenly felt defence of artistic freedom, in the theatre and elsewhere. “I get worried if it’s decided that certain classical plays are irrelevant. I think often there’s a superficial reading – Restoration drama is ‘colonialist, hierarchical, quasi racist’. But they’re just plays. You can turn them on their head. The danger is of labelling stuff. These texts are there – so pull the humanity out of them, pull out the stuff that’s relevant. If you’re going ‘it doesn’t tick these boxes’, you’re lowering the portcullis of judgement before you’ve even got into the room with it. I think that’s troubling.”

He praises artistic free-spirits from other disciplines – citing Picasso and Henry Miller. “We need to have those voices that risk being offensive. How sad if we sat on any expressive voice that could shake the scenery, that could get inside us and make us angry and turn us on. I would hate a world where the freedom of that kind of voice is stifled.”


JK Rowling is a bigot and pretending she's somehow being bullied by those awful woke trans people isn't remotely a "fair" comment, it's a contribution to that bigotry.

User avatar
Squinty
Member
Joined in 2009
Location: Norn Oirland

PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Squinty » Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:16 pm

Karl_ wrote:He didn't "call it out as a secondary concern", though, did he? He did an interview with a far-right newspaper in which he defended her uncritically, talking a load of culture war shite, probably looking for easy gammon clicks while promoting a play he's in:

JK Rowling is a bigot and pretending she's somehow being bullied by those awful woke trans people isn't remotely a "fair" comment, it's a contribution to that bigotry.


No, you are right, he didn't call it out as a secondary concern. He should have.

But I don't get what you are saying with that second paragraph. Playing devil's advocate here, it's quite clear she got death threats, that's a form of bullying. I don't know what group the individual people belong to, but it still happened. I don't think that's acceptable, even with her views.

User avatar
Karl_
Dr. Nyaaa~!
Dr. Nyaaa~!
Joined in 2008

PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Karl_ » Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:46 pm

Again, it goes without saying that I don't condone death threats. But your sympathy should be for the people her bigotry is affecting - for people who have to live with their rights being challenged and eroded by the hate movement she's helped create, and who have to read vicious lies about themselves and live in an increasingly hostile society. Anyone who seeks to reframe the issue as how terrible it is that she got some nasty messages from a few unhinged people, is drawing attention away from the actual issue - that her beliefs are evil and dangerous.

Bigots deliberately try to pretend that they are the victims (of censorship), that they are scared (of nasty emails), that they are being oppressed (by wokeness), that they are the minority (willing to stand up to political correctness), and so on, in order to gain sympathy. Fiennes' interview in far-right newspaper The Telegraph contributes to that, probably on purpose.

I'm sure Enoch Powell got some nasty letters after his speeches too, but if someone's take on "rivers of blood" was to fixate on that and say something like "it's sad that we all can't have a polite conversation" then they were part of the problem.

User avatar
Moggy
"Special"
Joined in 2008
AKA: Moggy

PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Moggy » Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:50 pm

JK Rowling is really into promoting free speech. Maybe this'll teach her that absolute free speech isn't a great idea. ;)

Image
User avatar
Squinty
Member
Joined in 2009
Location: Norn Oirland

PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Squinty » Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:07 pm

Karl_ wrote:Again, it goes without saying that I don't condone death threats. But your sympathy should be for the people her bigotry is affecting - for people who have to live with their rights being challenged and eroded by the hate movement she's helped create, and who have to read vicious lies about themselves and live in an increasingly hostile society. Anyone who seeks to reframe the issue as how terrible it is that she got some nasty messages from a few unhinged people, is drawing attention away from the actual issue - that her beliefs are evil and dangerous.

Bigots deliberately try to pretend that they are the victims (of censorship), that they are scared (of nasty emails), that they are being oppressed (by wokeness), that they are the minority (willing to stand up to political correctness), and so on, in order to gain sympathy. Fiennes' interview in far-right newspaper The Telegraph contributes to that, probably on purpose.

I'm sure Enoch Powell got some nasty letters after his speeches too, but if someone's take on "rivers of blood" was to fixate on that and say something like "it's sad that we all can't have a polite conversation" then they were part of the problem.


I don't really understand this part, I am sympathetic to them. But I also don't think she should have received death threats for her views. I don't think there's anything wrong with this position, and you haven't said anything to dissuade me from it. I certainly have much less sympathy for her, but it's still not acceptable to me.

User avatar
Green Gecko
Treasurer
Joined in 2008
Location: Sussex
Contact:

PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Green Gecko » Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:12 pm

I really don't think Karl is saying death threats aren't bad Squinty.

Just that he personally feels those threats are inquitable with the suffering of millions of people owing to prejudice engrained and sustained in society by individuals including JKR. Because, well, if only by a simple factor of scale (when you consider how regularly LGBTQIA+ people are treated the same way, due to no fault whatsoever of their own or anything that they have or haven't said), they aren't. Those people receive torrents of abuse etc on social media simply because they exist, or even look or sound they are what they are.

I think "ha, you look so gay" and "hey, your views suck and you're a bit of a banana split" are about as bad, and it gets a lot worse than that (beatings, murder, capital punishment, sustained campaigns of harassment).

♥ gaems | t: @GRcade | YT: GRcadeVideo | Twitch: GRcadeUK
Image
User avatar
Karl_
Dr. Nyaaa~!
Dr. Nyaaa~!
Joined in 2008

PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Karl_ » Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:14 pm

Yes, for the third time, I don't condone death threats.

I'm saying:

It's bad to express sympathy for bigots because it plays into their political strategy.

User avatar
Squinty
Member
Joined in 2009
Location: Norn Oirland

PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Squinty » Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:34 pm

Karl_ wrote:Yes, for the third time, I don't condone death threats.

I'm saying:

It's bad to express sympathy for bigots because it plays into their political strategy.


That's fine. Maybe don't assume that I don't care about them though. That's not how I feel at all.

User avatar
That's not a growth
Member
Joined in 2008

PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by That's not a growth » Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:45 pm

But you seem to be trying really hard to make it about her death threats when that wasn't brought up in the interview. That doesn't feel like a stretch to say you're showing sympathy. You're adding your own nuance, and for some reason you're doing it in a way that shines a bigot in a more favourable light.

User avatar
Prototype
Member
Joined in 2008

PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Prototype » Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:45 pm

Karl_ wrote:It goes without saying I don't condone death threats but I also have absolutely no sympathy if someone gets vitriol for using their wealth and power to organise a hate movement of bigots against a minority group.


How does she share her opinion on something without using her wealth and power?

User avatar
Karl_
Dr. Nyaaa~!
Dr. Nyaaa~!
Joined in 2008

PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Karl_ » Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:55 pm

Prototype wrote:
Karl_ wrote:It goes without saying I don't condone death threats but I also have absolutely no sympathy if someone gets vitriol for using their wealth and power to organise a hate movement of bigots against a minority group.


How does she share her opinion on something without using her wealth and power?


She shouldn't be sharing hateful, bigoted opinions at all.

User avatar
Tomous
Member
Joined in 2010
AKA: Vampbuster

PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Tomous » Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:56 pm

Prototype wrote:
Karl_ wrote:It goes without saying I don't condone death threats but I also have absolutely no sympathy if someone gets vitriol for using their wealth and power to organise a hate movement of bigots against a minority group.


How does she share her opinion on something without using her wealth and power?



How should she share her bigotry? She shouldn't.

Image
User avatar
Moggy
"Special"
Joined in 2008
AKA: Moggy

PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Moggy » Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:08 pm

Prototype wrote:
Karl_ wrote:It goes without saying I don't condone death threats but I also have absolutely no sympathy if someone gets vitriol for using their wealth and power to organise a hate movement of bigots against a minority group.


How does she share her opinion on something without using her wealth and power?


Via a sternly worded letter to Bigots Monthly magazine.

Image

Return to “Stuff”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Garth, Skarjo and 143 guests