If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?

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Prototype
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PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Prototype » Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:20 pm

Can someone link me to a first-hand post/blog/tweet of hers which you'd define as transphobic? I've only read various bits and pieces and other people's opinions on it so would be interested to see some.

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PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Karl_ » Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:34 pm

The writing was on the wall beforehand, but JK Rowling went fully mask off as a transphobe when she published a big essay about how scary trans people are.

https://medium.com/@briehanrahan/a-reasonable-persons-guide-to-the-j-k-rowling-essay-6bd9e2d638ad

Reading a commentary like that ^ is better than reading the essay devoid of context and taking it at face value, because deliberately misrepresenting the trans experience and the positions of trans people is the point of the essay.

This is another one worth reading that's a bit less affable but goes into more depth. https://katymontgomerie.medium.com/addressing-the-claims-in-jk-rowlings-justification-for-transphobia-7b6f761e8f8f

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PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Prototype » Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:46 pm

Karl_ wrote:The writing was on the wall beforehand, but JK Rowling went fully mask off as a transphobe when she published a big essay about how scary trans people are.

https://medium.com/@briehanrahan/a-reasonable-persons-guide-to-the-j-k-rowling-essay-6bd9e2d638ad

Reading a commentary like that ^ is better than reading the essay devoid of context and taking it at face value, because deliberately misrepresenting the trans experience and the positions of trans people is the point of the essay.

This is another one worth reading that's a bit less affable but goes into more depth. https://katymontgomerie.medium.com/addressing-the-claims-in-jk-rowlings-justification-for-transphobia-7b6f761e8f8f


Thanks Karl, I will read the essay and the two pieces you have posted.

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PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Squinty » Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:09 pm

That's not a growth wrote:But you seem to be trying really hard to make it about her death threats when that wasn't brought up in the interview. That doesn't feel like a stretch to say you're showing sympathy. You're adding your own nuance, and for some reason you're doing it in a way that shines a bigot in a more favourable light.


I assumed that was what Ralph Fiennes was referring to. That's why I brought it up.

I also haven't denied that I'm showing some level of sympathy towards her. I've already addressed that.

Not really intending to make her appear in a more favourable light either. Has she said things I don't agree with? Yes, absolutely. Do I think death threats were a proportionate response to her gooseberry fool talking? No, I don't.

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PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Outrunner » Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:59 pm

This seems like as good a place as any to ask for advice on this

I had a discussion today with some people at work about trans rights and inclusive language. To be clear, I am on the pro-trans rights side of the discussion against 4 people who were pretty transphobic. It was really sad to me, both on a wider trans-rights scale and on a more personal level because for years I'd always thought they were pretty accepting, open minded people

The discussion didn't go well, debating four people at the same time, who keep moving the goal posts and are all talking over you isn't the easiest thing to do. I'm much better at debunking things when it's one person and I have time to back up everything with articles, studies etc. It was hard for me to address specific points because when I tried they kept shifting the conversation. I ended up walking off, partly in frustration and partly because I was getting angry.

So, now I'm torn. Do I report them to my manager for their transphobic views which they were expressing in the workplace (not that expressing them at all is acceptable)? Do I try and engage with them and try and talk them round? Or both?

I'm also worried I game across as being a patronising sexist for trying to explain to 4 female colleagues why their views are wrong. But on the other hand, I don't want to let transphobic opinions and language go unchallenged.

On a personal level I do worry about how they view me. I'm asexual, if they're transphobic are they also acephobic? Do they look down on my because of my sexuality (or lack thereof). I did work with one acephobic person who has since left, is that view more widespread amongst people I've worked with for years and, largely, consider my friends?

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PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Prototype » Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:04 pm

Fair play to you for even trying to debate 4 people of an opposing viewpoint OR.

What were they saying? I assume completely dismissive of trans people etc? Denouncing gender dysphoria etc?

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PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Vermilion » Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:16 pm

You need to take a moment to think long and hard about what you are proposing, as realistically, if you report them, you will then likely still have to continue working with these people.

Do you really want to create the sort of resentment and trouble which would likely be the fallout, simply because you disagree with their views?

I've known lots of people in real life who have had shitty views about all sorts of subjects, but i would never think of reporting them as it's just not worth it.

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PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Grumpy David » Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:58 pm

Similar to 2 above posts but I'd want more detail on what was said plus I'd probably want the easy life. If these are women you'll have to continue working with, then being known as the office grass is likely going to make an uncomfortable situation even more uncomfortable. I'd rather just be able to do my job in peace.

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PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Outrunner » Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:18 pm

Thanks for the reply guys.

In brief and no particular order of severity: trans slurs were used, mocking trans people as men in frocks, dismissing gender dysphoria, comments about inclusive language essential being "PC gone mad" (they didn't actually say the words but that was the implication), some comments about the census and self-identifying gender. There were comments about dressing in gender non-conforming ways.

RE: having to work with them. I'm at university (well, studying from home at the moment) during the week and I only work a 4 hour shift every Saturday, I only see these particular people every other week and I'm reasonably confident the rest of the people I work that shift with lean towards more tolerant views (then again I thought they did so who knows). I also have a part-time job at the university and have been looking at getting more hours there anyway.

I am torn because these are people I've considered friends, but at the same time if I don't speak out against transphobia what kind of person does that make me?

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PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Prototype » Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:30 pm

“Men in frocks”. Christ almighty. They must subscribe to the philosophy that ignorance is bliss because what a rudimentary take. People seriously must think it’s easier to have a knee jerk reaction to something than understanding what someone’s going though.

Now for me, this is as blatant as transphobia gets.

The JK Rowling stuff (that I have read so far - not kp’s links, yet!), ****in my opinion****, requires a lot more analysis than immediately dismissing as transphobia.

And I say this as someone who believes anyone with gender dysphoria should be supported in whatever way possible to get through it. Even after they have transitioned. If that includes me reading more and more to come to the conclusion that views such as JK Rowling’s are inherently transphobic, then that’s the least I can do.

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PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Ironhide » Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:52 pm

Prototype wrote:
Karl_ wrote:The writing was on the wall beforehand, but JK Rowling went fully mask off as a transphobe when she published a big essay about how scary trans people are.

https://medium.com/@briehanrahan/a-reasonable-persons-guide-to-the-j-k-rowling-essay-6bd9e2d638ad

Reading a commentary like that ^ is better than reading the essay devoid of context and taking it at face value, because deliberately misrepresenting the trans experience and the positions of trans people is the point of the essay.

This is another one worth reading that's a bit less affable but goes into more depth. https://katymontgomerie.medium.com/addressing-the-claims-in-jk-rowlings-justification-for-transphobia-7b6f761e8f8f


Thanks Karl, I will read the essay and the two pieces you have posted.


Having a look at that first link and I'm quite shocked to see there are members of the LGBT community who are transphobic, isn't that slightly hypocritical when for years they've had to fight against bigotry and prejudice to get to a point where people are beginning to see that there's nothing wrong with being gay, bisexual, trans or any other sexual orientation you can name (or lack thereof).

I'm a straight guy who doesn't know any LGBT people but I really do find it incomprehensible that people can feel genuinely threatened by someone just because they don't identify as the gender they "should" be, especially when they themselves frequently face prejudice.

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PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Hexx » Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:37 am

Ironhide wrote:I'm a straight guy who doesn't know any LGBT people but I really do find it incomprehensible that people can feel genuinely threatened by someone just because they don't identify as the gender they "should" be, especially when they themselves frequently face prejudice.


I would imagine it's similar to why so many second wave feminists (but not all!) become TERFs - second wave’s focus was on women (not exclusively but as good as) changing the way society thought about women, and they believe that shouldn't include Trans as that isn't reflective of the “true” experience of women.

There's also a strong undercurrent that the best source of knowledge is experience. And it's largely binary - women and men. Oppressed and Oppressor.

If you or I stood up for trans rights against them that would be a man attacking them. Women (subtext 'like me') should define women's safe space.

It's cis feminists telling (trans)woman that they do not have that shared experience that almost defines what it is to be. That cis women were (in the 2nd wave) and still are discriminated against based on biological sex, and if you don't have that you're not a woman. A person needs to be socialized (with an undertow of "in a certain way") as a gender in order to actually be that gender. In there eyes if anyone can be a woman, then no one is a woman because it means nothing.

And often socialised in a certain way to have the "correct" experience of being a woman. There's a lot in there but TERF ideology/2nd wave feminism tends to elevate the cis (and usually white, mostly straight) experience of womanhood as the "gold standard" - if you don't have that experience you're not in the club.

There's a reason so many TERFS are concerned with trans(women) and not trans(males). They're not concerned with trans rights - they're actually transmisogynistic (If that's a word)

They're concerned that people without that "shared identity" (in this case trans women) are not “real women” and therefore should not have a voice in female focused discussions, or benefit from the rights women have fought so hard for. (The worst case in were the TERF thinks their wilful infiltrators bring down women obtained benefits - but they're rare.). Transmales don't threaten that so aren't even on the radar.

This "We are women" thing is why people calling out TERFs are often accused of misogyny.

There's sometimes also an sensing they're fighting against a perceived unfairness "If you've been a man, you're part of the patriarchy, and you've had years of privilege. So you've put on a dress. You're not a women. You've not suffered for years. You've not earned it like us. You can't have years in the special club and then take our few special bits on whim"

In can see bits of this focused on in the splintering of feminism in the 1960s- 1980s over race issues. 2nd wave feminist was could be (very simply) characteristed as middle class housewife's fighting for the right to work. Black women (mostly) never had that problem...and they didn't get support for their issues. 2nd wave feminism has often not been an ally to the similarly disadvantaged - but focused on correcting specific (and to be fair/clear) real issues.

There's a reason you can (often) say "If they weren't women, TERFs wouldn't be feminists". They focus on their problems.

You don't tend to get many third or fourth wave feminists focused on it - there's a lot more intersectionality there.

Second wavers also tend to (obviously be) older - so there's an element of "you weren't there, you didn't see our struggle fight" which again come back to identity defined by oppression and having to be "socialised" in the right way to have a valid view on the female gender.

TERFs have fought against men for so long (And to be fair they had) for rights. They think they're still fighting against men now. I expect I come off rather negative about them, and 2nd wave in general above, but they kinda of had to be. The problem isn't what they were - they problem is what they still are. The fights changed (although the oppression's still there). Look for allies rather resorting to the previous binary essentialism that defined that fight. But in the end there are still actively working against marginalised groups with high violence/suicide rates so strawberry float them

Sorry that was a bit (lol) rumbly for 1am (And I'll have certainly dropped at least 1 clunker talking about complex issues at that time) but the same "You haven't suffered as we have, so you're not us" will be behind the people I'm thinking - do you have any specific examples?

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PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Drumstick » Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:51 am

You see this sort of nonsense all the time, with people prejudiced against their own kind.

Take Priti Patel as an obvious example, the daughter of immigrants from Uganda. Of course for Patel, it's totally fine that her parents came here, but all the other immigrants can get out and stay out. Same deal with Sajid Javid.

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PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Benzin » Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:04 am

Certain people seem to think oppression only affects themselves (this is kinda across the board, but cis white men are the absolute worst for it).

Division is why so many fights for equality fall down. And because some people are set in the "back in my day" mindset.

Because newer generations directly tend to understand the issues moreso (as back in "the day" trans people were truly deemed as "men in frocks" or whatever other slurs were used), so I think as well older generations seemed threatened by the capability of others to be more open to social change for the better.

But of course, even in the LGBT community there are some who feel that their fight was the only one that mattered and that certain types of people are bandwagon hopping. And this is why we'll never seemingly get anyway as we're all too busy fighting each other for no reason and missing on the common issue of giving everyone rights to openly be themselves without fear of repression or worse.

I saw a thing yesterday where apparently the UK's largest evangelical body warned that a widespread ban of gay conversion therapy would criminalise a number of church leaders like it was a bad thing. It's utter nonsense that people who would partake in such a thing SHOULDN'T be criminalised for it.

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PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by VlaSoul » Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:14 am

Drumstick wrote:You see this sort of nonsense all the time, with people prejudiced against their own kind.

Take Priti Patel as an obvious example, the daughter of immigrants from Uganda. Of course for Patel, it's totally fine that her parents came here, but all the other immigrants can get out and stay out. Same deal with Sajid Javid.

south asian tories are like this in general init

It's kind of a cultural thing in more privileged south asians/south asians who successfully pull themselves up the social ladder; often they'll put themselves on a higher pedestal than other desis and especially immigrants from other areas for various reasons. Gujratis like her also tend to fall into this category often because they're among the most wealthly of all of us, their families having done well for themselves during like late colonialism. imo holdovers from the caste system play a part here as well

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PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Lex-Man » Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:37 am

It's easy for people like Patel because they were offered the chance to move to the UK without any problems. So she doesn't really get what it's like to flee without a place to settle.

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PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by speedboatchase » Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:50 am

VlaSoul wrote:
Drumstick wrote:You see this sort of nonsense all the time, with people prejudiced against their own kind.

Take Priti Patel as an obvious example, the daughter of immigrants from Uganda. Of course for Patel, it's totally fine that her parents came here, but all the other immigrants can get out and stay out. Same deal with Sajid Javid.

south asian tories are like this in general init

It's kind of a cultural thing in more privileged south asians/south asians who successfully pull themselves up the social ladder; often they'll put themselves on a higher pedestal than other desis and especially immigrants from other areas for various reasons. Gujratis like her also tend to fall into this category often because they're among the most wealthly of all of us, their families having done well for themselves during like late colonialism. imo holdovers from the caste system play a part here as well


I really dislike this argument but it’s very common. It implies that POCs must think a certain way, that despite being British for multiple generations, must put ethnicity first. The same people who say "Anyone can be British" are surprisingly quick to turn to "Wait a second. Didn't your grandfather..." to win an argument.

It could be that some South Asians prefer Tory policies, in the same way that white people are free to like the Tories without their race being brought into it.

When I see this argument on the Twitter left it’s always very personalised - one of the main people from CAGE last year had a Twitter thread with right-wing POCs, mainly women, in photos next to their white partners - a not so subtle nod to them being race traitors brought into the mix.

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PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Squinty » Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:16 pm

Benzin wrote:I saw a thing yesterday where apparently the UK's largest evangelical body warned that a widespread ban of gay conversion therapy would criminalise a number of church leaders like it was a bad thing. It's utter nonsense that people who would partake in such a thing SHOULDN'T be criminalised for it.


I haven't seen this article, but I know of a church near me that attempted to do it with one of their congregation.

I'm going to guess they would never publicly acknowledge it as well.

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PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Drumstick » Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:42 pm

speedboatchase wrote:I really dislike this argument but it’s very common. It implies that POCs must think a certain way, that despite being British for multiple generations, must put ethnicity first. The same people who say "Anyone can be British" are surprisingly quick to turn to "Wait a second. Didn't your grandfather..." to win an argument.

It could be that some South Asians prefer Tory policies, in the same way that white people are free to like the Tories without their race being brought into it.

When I see this argument on the Twitter left it’s always very personalised - one of the main people from CAGE last year had a Twitter thread with right-wing POCs, mainly women, in photos next to their white partners - a not so subtle nod to them being race traitors brought into the mix.

I am far from an expert on this subject and whilst I see no problem with BAME/POC liking Tory policies, I do see a problem with them specifically to keep other immigrants out. It reeks of the American "I got mine" attitude.

In the case of Patel and Javid, where do they think they would be if their families weren't welcomed into the country a few decades ago, and why are they obsessed with denying that same privilege to future generations?

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PostRe: If someone says something offensive, how should society deal with it?
by Moggy » Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:55 pm

speedboatchase wrote:
VlaSoul wrote:
Drumstick wrote:You see this sort of nonsense all the time, with people prejudiced against their own kind.

Take Priti Patel as an obvious example, the daughter of immigrants from Uganda. Of course for Patel, it's totally fine that her parents came here, but all the other immigrants can get out and stay out. Same deal with Sajid Javid.

south asian tories are like this in general init

It's kind of a cultural thing in more privileged south asians/south asians who successfully pull themselves up the social ladder; often they'll put themselves on a higher pedestal than other desis and especially immigrants from other areas for various reasons. Gujratis like her also tend to fall into this category often because they're among the most wealthly of all of us, their families having done well for themselves during like late colonialism. imo holdovers from the caste system play a part here as well


I really dislike this argument but it’s very common. It implies that POCs must think a certain way, that despite being British for multiple generations, must put ethnicity first. The same people who say "Anyone can be British" are surprisingly quick to turn to "Wait a second. Didn't your grandfather..." to win an argument.

It could be that some South Asians prefer Tory policies, in the same way that white people are free to like the Tories without their race being brought into it.

When I see this argument on the Twitter left it’s always very personalised - one of the main people from CAGE last year had a Twitter thread with right-wing POCs, mainly women, in photos next to their white partners - a not so subtle nod to them being race traitors brought into the mix.


I mostly agree but Patel is different. Her parents had to flee to Britain and she seems to spend her time devising ways to stop anybody else being able to do so.

It's not her race that makes it wrong, it's her families experience. It'd be like a lung cancer survivor going into cigarette advertising.

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