Immortals: Fenyx Rising | NSW/PS4/XBO/PC | OUT THIS WEEK | Reviews are looking good!

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PostRe: Immortals: Fenyx Rising | NSW/PS4/XBO/PC | 03.12.2020
by OrangeRKN » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:12 pm

So if the DLC straight up didn't exist, you'd be more interested in playing the game - even if the base game didn't have any more content than it does now?

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PostRe: Immortals: Fenyx Rising | NSW/PS4/XBO/PC | 03.12.2020
by Balladeer » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:17 pm

...at least that would lead to less crunching?

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PostRe: Immortals: Fenyx Rising | NSW/PS4/XBO/PC | 03.12.2020
by Jenuall » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:19 pm

I think OR is right here, all that matters is whether the game that launches offers suitable value as it stands. I don't think the simple existence of DLC and awareness that it is going to appear at some point in the future should be held against a base game, it should be evaluated for what it is and if it cannot stand on it's own then there is scope to start exploring what the cause of that is and whether holding things back for a DLC is a reasonable criticism against it.

Development is a complicated beast and quest/scenario/gameplay designers can be working on the next thing whilst other members of the team are still completing or polishing the main game, it's a fantasy to think that later ideas and content can just be dropped into the base game

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PostRe: Immortals: Fenyx Rising | NSW/PS4/XBO/PC | 03.12.2020
by Drumstick » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:20 pm

OrangeRKN wrote:So if the DLC straight up didn't exist, you'd be more interested in playing the game - even if the base game didn't have any more content than it does now?

How is that the conclusion you've drawn? :lol:

In this case, the "DLC" is not actually additional content, it's content that has been omitted from the base game to sell separately.

The game itself is made up of lots of different parts, right? What Ubi have done is remove three of them to market them as add-ons. I would prefer it if they combined all four parts together again to make the full game.

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PostRe: Immortals: Fenyx Rising | NSW/PS4/XBO/PC | 03.12.2020
by Drumstick » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:21 pm

Jenuall wrote:Development is a complicated beast and quest/scenario/gameplay designers can be working on the next thing whilst other members of the team are still completing or polishing the main game, it's a fantasy to think that later ideas and content can just be dropped into the base game

Day 1 DLC, really?

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PostRe: Immortals: Fenyx Rising | NSW/PS4/XBO/PC | 03.12.2020
by ITSMILNER » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:24 pm

Who said this DLC is day one? Was it in the trailer?

The main game most likely wrapped up a while ago (Content finalised) then they went to work on Season Pass content.

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PostRe: Immortals: Fenyx Rising | NSW/PS4/XBO/PC | 03.12.2020
by Jenuall » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:27 pm

Yeah it doesn't sound like the more significant DLC is available for some time?

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PostRe: Immortals: Fenyx Rising | NSW/PS4/XBO/PC | 03.12.2020
by OrangeRKN » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:32 pm

Drumstick wrote:
OrangeRKN wrote:So if the DLC straight up didn't exist, you'd be more interested in playing the game - even if the base game didn't have any more content than it does now?

How is that the conclusion you've drawn? :lol:

In this case, the "DLC" is not actually additional content, it's content that has been omitted from the base game to sell separately.

The game itself is made up of lots of different parts, right? What Ubi have done is remove three of them to market them as add-ons. I would prefer it if they combined all four parts together again to make the full game.


Because you said it wasn't about the value proposition. Surely it is, if your complaint is additional content should be included for the base price rather than sold as extra. You're saying you'd pay x for so much content, but object to paying x + y.

I very rarely buy DLC, or even play free DLC unless it's pre-bundled in a GOTY edition or remaster or whatever - so similar to you I think. The existence of a season pass/planned DLC probably isn't going to put me off a game though, I'll just evaluate whether the content in the base game itself is worthy of a purchase.

It's only if cut content noticeably worsens the base experience where it's a problem. Hopefully that isn't the case in this - although it might be! The latest Assassin's Creed is a good example of where there is more than enough content in the base game and the expansions are self contained for their existence to not bother me, so I hope it's similar with Immortals.

It definitely has happened where DLC has worsened the base game as cut content in a way that annoyed me though, don't get me wrong!

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PostRe: Immortals: Fenyx Rising | NSW/PS4/XBO/PC | 03.12.2020
by Cuttooth » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:42 pm

I don’t think my position on pre-planned DLC has changed much in the past couple of years:

Cuttooth wrote:
Drumstick wrote:
HSH28 wrote:Don't care at all.

To expand a little, when buying a game what I care about is if the game I'm getting is going to be worth the money I'm spending on it.

DLC might factor in to that and it might not.

In this instance we are talking about DLC being announced a long time prior to the release of the base game. So it could quite easily just be part of the base game. Why would you buy the game and then pay extra for so called DLC when it could and perhaps should have been part of the base game? It makes no sense.

I don't understand this. If a project is planned to take x amount of time for the base game using available resources why would it be easy to bolt on additional work just because 'x time' happens to be three years or whatever?

You either have to change your release date or add more resources. That means having to hire/source more people and increase the budget of the game, make developers work harder, longer hours; or (if we're being honest) both.

If anything, having a 'roadmap' upfront for customers that explains what is being released when is exactly how publishers should be approaching their marketing and development of DLC. It's shitty to expect people to pay upfront for the promise of future DLC in the form of season passes, but it's genuinely a good thing to inform people of future DLC plans ahead of time. It also (hopefully) keeps development staff employed on a more longer term, stable project than they otherwise would have.

It's of course inexcusable where extra, paid stuff is released when it was originally part of the initial release, and that probably has happened and probably still does happen. Siphoning off sections of your game for the explicit intention of charging more for it on top of the base game is surely more prevalent in day one DLC though, right?

I think it’s definitely true that you’ll get instances where a developer/publisher will deliberately cut content out of a base game to sell as DLC down the line, and god knows Ubisoft can’t exactly be trusted most of the time, but if the suggestion is the only content there can be for a game is whatever is released on launch then you’ll just end up with that filling a quick sequel instead.

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PostRe: Immortals: Fenyx Rising | NSW/PS4/XBO/PC | 03.12.2020
by Balladeer » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:44 pm

Much though I’m not a fan of Day 1 DLC, there are surely better reasons to avoid this game on principle grounds...

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PostRe: Immortals: Fenyx Rising | NSW/PS4/XBO/PC | 03.12.2020
by rinks » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:44 pm

Omitted is not the same as not included. Fairly sure this would have been planned this way from the start, so nobody is being cheated out of anything.

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PostRe: Immortals: Fenyx Rising | NSW/PS4/XBO/PC | 03.12.2020
by Drumstick » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:30 pm

OrangeRKN wrote:Because you said it wasn't about the value proposition. Surely it is, if your complaint is additional content should be included for the base price rather than sold as extra. You're saying you'd pay x for so much content, but object to paying x + y.

Succinctly, my complaint is what they are marketing as DLC is just content that was removed from the main game. So yeah, it probably will make the base game worse, unless their DLC sucks.

Cuttooth wrote:If anything, having a 'roadmap' upfront for customers that explains what is being released when is exactly how publishers should be approaching their marketing and development of DLC. It's shitty to expect people to pay upfront for the promise of future DLC in the form of season passes, but it's genuinely a good thing to inform people of future DLC plans ahead of time.

I think I missed this post originally. Yes, I agree, informing players beforehand is obviously better, but in a lesser of two evils kind of way.

Balladeer wrote:Much though I’m not a fan of Day 1 DLC, there are surely better reasons to avoid this game on principle grounds...

Depends on who you're asking and what they value.

rinks wrote:Omitted is not the same as not included. Fairly sure this would have been planned this way from the start, so nobody is being cheated out of anything.

I'm not saying anyone is being cheated out of anything - they're now being clear about their approach to content - they're splitting up the game into segments. If buying four different parts of the game to get the full game floats your boat then great.

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PostRe: Immortals: Fenyx Rising | NSW/PS4/XBO/PC | 03.12.2020
by kerr9000 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:11 pm

Unless you just standardly want game prices to go up to like £80 a game I think you need to accept studios are going to do season passes and such. Look at the megadrive days it was £40 for a game made by a team of 12 with 8 flat liner levels some midi tunes and now people still want games to be £40 but want deep almost never ending world's , orchestral music and a team on hundreds working on it, in the words of the Atari Jaguar marketing department do the maths.

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PostRe: Immortals: Fenyx Rising | NSW/PS4/XBO/PC | 03.12.2020
by Balladeer » Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:18 pm

Drumstick wrote:
Balladeer wrote:Much though I’m not a fan of Day 1 DLC, there are surely better reasons to avoid this game on principle grounds...

Depends on who you're asking and what they value.

I’d hope day 1 DLC vs. sexual assault should be a no-brainer for most!

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PostRe: Immortals: Fenyx Rising | NSW/PS4/XBO/PC | 03.12.2020
by Drumstick » Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:54 pm

Balladeer wrote:
Drumstick wrote:
Balladeer wrote:Much though I’m not a fan of Day 1 DLC, there are surely better reasons to avoid this game on principle grounds...

Depends on who you're asking and what they value.

I’d hope day 1 DLC vs. sexual assault should be a no-brainer for most!

I haven't heard about it but yeah, good reason to boycott.

kerr9000 wrote:Unless you just standardly want game prices to go up to like £80 a game I think you need to accept studios are going to do season passes and such. Look at the megadrive days it was £40 for a game made by a team of 12 with 8 flat liner levels some midi tunes and now people still want games to be £40 but want deep almost never ending world's , orchestral music and a team on hundreds working on it, in the words of the Atari Jaguar marketing department do the maths.

Loads of games manage without DLC and/or Season Passes.

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PostRe: Immortals: Fenyx Rising | NSW/PS4/XBO/PC | 03.12.2020
by Tomous » Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:10 pm

Drumstick wrote:
Balladeer wrote:
Drumstick wrote:
Balladeer wrote:Much though I’m not a fan of Day 1 DLC, there are surely better reasons to avoid this game on principle grounds...

Depends on who you're asking and what they value.

I’d hope day 1 DLC vs. sexual assault should be a no-brainer for most!

I haven't heard about it but yeah, good reason to boycott.

kerr9000 wrote:Unless you just standardly want game prices to go up to like £80 a game I think you need to accept studios are going to do season passes and such. Look at the megadrive days it was £40 for a game made by a team of 12 with 8 flat liner levels some midi tunes and now people still want games to be £40 but want deep almost never ending world's , orchestral music and a team on hundreds working on it, in the words of the Atari Jaguar marketing department do the maths.

Loads of games manage without DLC and/or Season Passes.



I'm not sure there actually are that many games with medium+ sized budgets that don't try to add extra revenue streams, whether that is DLC, season passes or microtransactions especially if you discount stuff like Nintendo because they maintain their price tag and don't stop selling.

Looking at my PS4 library and I'm struggling to find something I'd consider big budget that was completely standalone other than a few Sony first party titles.

One thing I would say about the cost argument though is I'm pretty sure the manufacturing costs are alot cheaper now, so that is something to balance against higher development costs. Also, games companies are much bigger now with shareholder value to worry about. Part of this balancing act with finding extra revenue is arguably because costs have gone up but another aspect of it for sure is to satisfy hungry shareholders.

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PostRe: Immortals: Fenyx Rising | NSW/PS4/XBO/PC | 03.12.2020
by kerr9000 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:55 pm

The problem is people want cheap large games, with no bugs no dlc and no loot boxes but also simultaneously want companies to have departments which are there to check behaviour and immediately suspend and investigate anyone who does something wrong, while also being as eco friendly as possible, while making sure people check it's made by a multi cultural team and that there's no crunch at all while simultaneously coming out on time and scoring at least a 8 out of 10.

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PostRe: Immortals: Fenyx Rising | NSW/PS4/XBO/PC | 03.12.2020
by Jenuall » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:08 pm

I just don't get this "DLC = evil" default association, some of my favourite gaming experiences have been from DLC and expansion packs.

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PostRe: Immortals: Fenyx Rising | NSW/PS4/XBO/PC | 03.12.2020
by Corazon de Leon » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:20 pm

Jenuall wrote:I just don't get this "DLC = evil" default association, some of my favourite gaming experiences have been from DLC and expansion packs.


DLC is fine, so long as it’s signposted before time and doesn’t take content away from the main game. A bad example that comes to my mind is Dead Rising 4, which ends on a cliffhanger that’s only wrapped up in DLC that had been planned since before the game’s release. All three previous games had “overtime mode” which wrapped up the story after the main game had conclude, whereas 4 stripped it out and put it into a DLC pack, which in my view is fairly vile.

Day one DLC makes me a bit uncomfortable as well but I haven’t read through the thread so don’t really know enough to comment on this particular game.

I think that is the type of DLC Drummy is railing against, rather than standard DLC like, say, Doom. And that’s fair enough IMO. But you can’t stop the unstoppable tide of DLC, even Nintendo are getting in on the act nowadays!

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PostRe: Immortals: Fenyx Rising | NSW/PS4/XBO/PC | 03.12.2020
by Jenuall » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:26 pm

Corazon de Leon wrote:
Jenuall wrote:I just don't get this "DLC = evil" default association, some of my favourite gaming experiences have been from DLC and expansion packs.


DLC is fine, so long as it’s signposted before time and doesn’t take content away from the main game. A bad example that comes to my mind is Dead Rising 4, which ends on a cliffhanger that’s only wrapped up in DLC that had been planned since before the game’s release. All three previous games had “overtime mode” which wrapped up the story after the main game had conclude, whereas 4 stripped it out and put it into a DLC pack, which in my view is fairly vile.

Day one DLC makes me a bit uncomfortable as well but I haven’t read through the thread so don’t really know enough to comment on this particular game.

I think that is the type of DLC Drummy is railing against, rather than standard DLC like, say, Doom. And that’s fair enough IMO. But you can’t stop the unstoppable tide of DLC, even Nintendo are getting in on the act nowadays!

Thats my point I guess, there just seems to be an instant "ugh, there's DLC for this? They're taking the piss!" reaction without actually knowing anything about the value of the game itself or the DLC.

Now it's no doubt easy to be cynical about some developers based on form and I have no problem with that or with criticising situations where the developer has genuinely ripped the core game apart to make more money. But there's a big reach to say that is what's happening here. Watching the video it seems like one of the DLCs they announced is practically a completely different game type to the rest of the experience so that hardly fits the cynical cash grab formula!

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