Is it homophobic to sing along to "you cheap lousy ******" when listening to Fairytale of New York?

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:In the context of the song, it’s a woman absolutely pissed off with her deadbeat partner/husband and in the midst of an argument she calls him a name.

So the question is whether it is ok to call somebody a “******” when you are angry with them.

The answer of course is no, it’s not acceptable to shout racist/homophobic/sexist slurs at somebody, no matter how much they piss you off.

So is it homophobic to sing along to that part of the song? Yes.

And it is not really very similar to “*****” in rap songs. As far as I am aware Kirsty MacColl wasn’t a gay man.

But would you say anyone singing along to it is a homophobe, as the man I referred to in the OP did?

Not necessarily. People might be unaware of the meaning of the word (unlikely but possible) or they might just be singing along to a song without thinking about it.

There’s little doubt it’s a homophobic lyric though. MacGowan might not have meant it that way, it was a common insult back then, but it definitely is known to be offensive nowadays.

But if you can't necessarily ascribe an attitude to MacGowan based on it - being as it is markedly a dialogue between two characters, then surely that implies that context is the crucial thing here. It can't be a homophobic lyric if the intent wasn't to be homophobic, right?

I don’t think I did ascribe an attitude to MacGowan, I specifically said he might not have meant it that way, he may have just reached for a common insult (at the time) and not thought much about it.

That doesn’t change it being homophobic though. If the lyric was “you scumbag, you sinner, you cheap lousy ******”, would you say the line was not racist?

I would say it doesn't rhyme.

Cool.

Come on, Mogg, I was just joking.

I didn't say you did ascribe an attitude to MacGowan, I was saying that the fact that you were not suggests that context is key. I guess if that's what I think then also I would have to say that your alternative line if it was in the song I wouldn't necessarily think it's a racist line. I don't think a word or line can be racist alone, I guess. It has to be imbued with intent to offend. Otherwise, I could criticise you for not using the "N word" in your post.

Of course it has to be imbued with intent to offend. Which “******” is in the context of that song. The lady in the song is using it to offend, MacGowan might not have wanted to, but it doesn’t change the fact that “******” is used as a slur.

My use of the full version of the “N word” had no intent to offend, it was there to illustrate a point.

You still used it, though, and many people would say that no white person should ever use it in any context. Not something I would necessarily agree with, of course. And as I said before, the song is markedly a dialogue between arguing characters. It's a bit like slagging off the Sopranos for having racist and homophobic characters isn't it?

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:In the context of the song, it’s a woman absolutely pissed off with her deadbeat partner/husband and in the midst of an argument she calls him a name.

So the question is whether it is ok to call somebody a “******” when you are angry with them.

The answer of course is no, it’s not acceptable to shout racist/homophobic/sexist slurs at somebody, no matter how much they piss you off.

So is it homophobic to sing along to that part of the song? Yes.

And it is not really very similar to “*****” in rap songs. As far as I am aware Kirsty MacColl wasn’t a gay man.

But would you say anyone singing along to it is a homophobe, as the man I referred to in the OP did?

Not necessarily. People might be unaware of the meaning of the word (unlikely but possible) or they might just be singing along to a song without thinking about it.

There’s little doubt it’s a homophobic lyric though. MacGowan might not have meant it that way, it was a common insult back then, but it definitely is known to be offensive nowadays.

But if you can't necessarily ascribe an attitude to MacGowan based on it - being as it is markedly a dialogue between two characters, then surely that implies that context is the crucial thing here. It can't be a homophobic lyric if the intent wasn't to be homophobic, right?

I don’t think I did ascribe an attitude to MacGowan, I specifically said he might not have meant it that way, he may have just reached for a common insult (at the time) and not thought much about it.

That doesn’t change it being homophobic though. If the lyric was “you scumbag, you sinner, you cheap lousy ******”, would you say the line was not racist?

I would say it doesn't rhyme.

Cool.

Come on, Mogg, I was just joking.

I didn't say you did ascribe an attitude to MacGowan, I was saying that the fact that you were not suggests that context is key. I guess if that's what I think then also I would have to say that your alternative line if it was in the song I wouldn't necessarily think it's a racist line. I don't think a word or line can be racist alone, I guess. It has to be imbued with intent to offend. Otherwise, I could criticise you for not using the "N word" in your post.

Of course it has to be imbued with intent to offend. Which “******” is in the context of that song. The lady in the song is using it to offend, MacGowan might not have wanted to, but it doesn’t change the fact that “******” is used as a slur.

My use of the full version of the “N word” had no intent to offend, it was there to illustrate a point.

You still used it, though, and many people would say that no white person should ever use it in any context. Not something I would necessarily agree with, of course. And as I said before, the song is markedly a dialogue between arguing characters. It's a bit like slagging off the Sopranos for having racist and homophobic characters isn't it?

The Sopranos example isn’t too bad, but would you loudly shout out the racist and homophobic quotes from the show?

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:In the context of the song, it’s a woman absolutely pissed off with her deadbeat partner/husband and in the midst of an argument she calls him a name.

So the question is whether it is ok to call somebody a “******” when you are angry with them.

The answer of course is no, it’s not acceptable to shout racist/homophobic/sexist slurs at somebody, no matter how much they piss you off.

So is it homophobic to sing along to that part of the song? Yes.

And it is not really very similar to “*****” in rap songs. As far as I am aware Kirsty MacColl wasn’t a gay man.

But would you say anyone singing along to it is a homophobe, as the man I referred to in the OP did?

Not necessarily. People might be unaware of the meaning of the word (unlikely but possible) or they might just be singing along to a song without thinking about it.

There’s little doubt it’s a homophobic lyric though. MacGowan might not have meant it that way, it was a common insult back then, but it definitely is known to be offensive nowadays.

But if you can't necessarily ascribe an attitude to MacGowan based on it - being as it is markedly a dialogue between two characters, then surely that implies that context is the crucial thing here. It can't be a homophobic lyric if the intent wasn't to be homophobic, right?

I don’t think I did ascribe an attitude to MacGowan, I specifically said he might not have meant it that way, he may have just reached for a common insult (at the time) and not thought much about it.

That doesn’t change it being homophobic though. If the lyric was “you scumbag, you sinner, you cheap lousy ******”, would you say the line was not racist?

I would say it doesn't rhyme.

Cool.

Come on, Mogg, I was just joking.

I didn't say you did ascribe an attitude to MacGowan, I was saying that the fact that you were not suggests that context is key. I guess if that's what I think then also I would have to say that your alternative line if it was in the song I wouldn't necessarily think it's a racist line. I don't think a word or line can be racist alone, I guess. It has to be imbued with intent to offend. Otherwise, I could criticise you for not using the "N word" in your post.

Of course it has to be imbued with intent to offend. Which “******” is in the context of that song. The lady in the song is using it to offend, MacGowan might not have wanted to, but it doesn’t change the fact that “******” is used as a slur.

My use of the full version of the “N word” had no intent to offend, it was there to illustrate a point.

You still used it, though, and many people would say that no white person should ever use it in any context. Not something I would necessarily agree with, of course. And as I said before, the song is markedly a dialogue between arguing characters. It's a bit like slagging off the Sopranos for having racist and homophobic characters isn't it?

The Sopranos example isn’t too bad, but would you loudly shout out the racist and homophobic quotes from the show?

No, that would be mental.

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:In the context of the song, it’s a woman absolutely pissed off with her deadbeat partner/husband and in the midst of an argument she calls him a name.

So the question is whether it is ok to call somebody a “******” when you are angry with them.

The answer of course is no, it’s not acceptable to shout racist/homophobic/sexist slurs at somebody, no matter how much they piss you off.

So is it homophobic to sing along to that part of the song? Yes.

And it is not really very similar to “*****” in rap songs. As far as I am aware Kirsty MacColl wasn’t a gay man.

But would you say anyone singing along to it is a homophobe, as the man I referred to in the OP did?

Not necessarily. People might be unaware of the meaning of the word (unlikely but possible) or they might just be singing along to a song without thinking about it.

There’s little doubt it’s a homophobic lyric though. MacGowan might not have meant it that way, it was a common insult back then, but it definitely is known to be offensive nowadays.

But if you can't necessarily ascribe an attitude to MacGowan based on it - being as it is markedly a dialogue between two characters, then surely that implies that context is the crucial thing here. It can't be a homophobic lyric if the intent wasn't to be homophobic, right?

I don’t think I did ascribe an attitude to MacGowan, I specifically said he might not have meant it that way, he may have just reached for a common insult (at the time) and not thought much about it.

That doesn’t change it being homophobic though. If the lyric was “you scumbag, you sinner, you cheap lousy ******”, would you say the line was not racist?

I would say it doesn't rhyme.

Cool.

Come on, Mogg, I was just joking.

I didn't say you did ascribe an attitude to MacGowan, I was saying that the fact that you were not suggests that context is key. I guess if that's what I think then also I would have to say that your alternative line if it was in the song I wouldn't necessarily think it's a racist line. I don't think a word or line can be racist alone, I guess. It has to be imbued with intent to offend. Otherwise, I could criticise you for not using the "N word" in your post.

Of course it has to be imbued with intent to offend. Which “******” is in the context of that song. The lady in the song is using it to offend, MacGowan might not have wanted to, but it doesn’t change the fact that “******” is used as a slur.

My use of the full version of the “N word” had no intent to offend, it was there to illustrate a point.

You still used it, though, and many people would say that no white person should ever use it in any context. Not something I would necessarily agree with, of course. And as I said before, the song is markedly a dialogue between arguing characters. It's a bit like slagging off the Sopranos for having racist and homophobic characters isn't it?

The Sopranos example isn’t too bad, but would you loudly shout out the racist and homophobic quotes from the show?

No, that would be mental.

You’ve never heard people quoting movie/TV lines when they are out with their friends?

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:In the context of the song, it’s a woman absolutely pissed off with her deadbeat partner/husband and in the midst of an argument she calls him a name.

So the question is whether it is ok to call somebody a “******” when you are angry with them.

The answer of course is no, it’s not acceptable to shout racist/homophobic/sexist slurs at somebody, no matter how much they piss you off.

So is it homophobic to sing along to that part of the song? Yes.

And it is not really very similar to “*****” in rap songs. As far as I am aware Kirsty MacColl wasn’t a gay man.

But would you say anyone singing along to it is a homophobe, as the man I referred to in the OP did?

Not necessarily. People might be unaware of the meaning of the word (unlikely but possible) or they might just be singing along to a song without thinking about it.

There’s little doubt it’s a homophobic lyric though. MacGowan might not have meant it that way, it was a common insult back then, but it definitely is known to be offensive nowadays.

But if you can't necessarily ascribe an attitude to MacGowan based on it - being as it is markedly a dialogue between two characters, then surely that implies that context is the crucial thing here. It can't be a homophobic lyric if the intent wasn't to be homophobic, right?

I don’t think I did ascribe an attitude to MacGowan, I specifically said he might not have meant it that way, he may have just reached for a common insult (at the time) and not thought much about it.

That doesn’t change it being homophobic though. If the lyric was “you scumbag, you sinner, you cheap lousy ******”, would you say the line was not racist?

I would say it doesn't rhyme.

Cool.

Come on, Mogg, I was just joking.

I didn't say you did ascribe an attitude to MacGowan, I was saying that the fact that you were not suggests that context is key. I guess if that's what I think then also I would have to say that your alternative line if it was in the song I wouldn't necessarily think it's a racist line. I don't think a word or line can be racist alone, I guess. It has to be imbued with intent to offend. Otherwise, I could criticise you for not using the "N word" in your post.

Of course it has to be imbued with intent to offend. Which “******” is in the context of that song. The lady in the song is using it to offend, MacGowan might not have wanted to, but it doesn’t change the fact that “******” is used as a slur.

My use of the full version of the “N word” had no intent to offend, it was there to illustrate a point.

You still used it, though, and many people would say that no white person should ever use it in any context. Not something I would necessarily agree with, of course. And as I said before, the song is markedly a dialogue between arguing characters. It's a bit like slagging off the Sopranos for having racist and homophobic characters isn't it?

The Sopranos example isn’t too bad, but would you loudly shout out the racist and homophobic quotes from the show?

No, that would be mental.

You’ve never heard people quoting movie/TV lines when they are out with their friends?

Sure, but quoting racist lines in a pub is a bit different to singing along with a song that is currently playing.

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:In the context of the song, it’s a woman absolutely pissed off with her deadbeat partner/husband and in the midst of an argument she calls him a name.

So the question is whether it is ok to call somebody a “******” when you are angry with them.

The answer of course is no, it’s not acceptable to shout racist/homophobic/sexist slurs at somebody, no matter how much they piss you off.

So is it homophobic to sing along to that part of the song? Yes.

And it is not really very similar to “*****” in rap songs. As far as I am aware Kirsty MacColl wasn’t a gay man.

But would you say anyone singing along to it is a homophobe, as the man I referred to in the OP did?

Not necessarily. People might be unaware of the meaning of the word (unlikely but possible) or they might just be singing along to a song without thinking about it.

There’s little doubt it’s a homophobic lyric though. MacGowan might not have meant it that way, it was a common insult back then, but it definitely is known to be offensive nowadays.

But if you can't necessarily ascribe an attitude to MacGowan based on it - being as it is markedly a dialogue between two characters, then surely that implies that context is the crucial thing here. It can't be a homophobic lyric if the intent wasn't to be homophobic, right?

I don’t think I did ascribe an attitude to MacGowan, I specifically said he might not have meant it that way, he may have just reached for a common insult (at the time) and not thought much about it.

That doesn’t change it being homophobic though. If the lyric was “you scumbag, you sinner, you cheap lousy ******”, would you say the line was not racist?

I would say it doesn't rhyme.

Cool.

Come on, Mogg, I was just joking.

I didn't say you did ascribe an attitude to MacGowan, I was saying that the fact that you were not suggests that context is key. I guess if that's what I think then also I would have to say that your alternative line if it was in the song I wouldn't necessarily think it's a racist line. I don't think a word or line can be racist alone, I guess. It has to be imbued with intent to offend. Otherwise, I could criticise you for not using the "N word" in your post.

Of course it has to be imbued with intent to offend. Which “******” is in the context of that song. The lady in the song is using it to offend, MacGowan might not have wanted to, but it doesn’t change the fact that “******” is used as a slur.

My use of the full version of the “N word” had no intent to offend, it was there to illustrate a point.

You still used it, though, and many people would say that no white person should ever use it in any context. Not something I would necessarily agree with, of course. And as I said before, the song is markedly a dialogue between arguing characters. It's a bit like slagging off the Sopranos for having racist and homophobic characters isn't it?

The Sopranos example isn’t too bad, but would you loudly shout out the racist and homophobic quotes from the show?

No, that would be mental.

You’ve never heard people quoting movie/TV lines when they are out with their friends?

Sure, but quoting racist lines in a pub is a bit different to singing along with a song that is currently playing.

The Sopranos was your example.

We agree people quote TV/movies in pubs. We agree people sing songs in pubs. But you think it’s ok to sing homophobic/racist lyrics in pubs, but not to quote homophobic/racist lines in pubs?

My good friend once punched me in a pub and gave me a nosebleed because I quoted Peep Show but he didn't recognise the reference.

OrangeXMS wrote:My good friend once punched me in a pub and gave me a nosebleed because I quoted Peep Show but he didn't recognise the reference.

What was the reference?

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Blue Baubles wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:In the context of the song, it’s a woman absolutely pissed off with her deadbeat partner/husband and in the midst of an argument she calls him a name.

So the question is whether it is ok to call somebody a “******” when you are angry with them.

The answer of course is no, it’s not acceptable to shout racist/homophobic/sexist slurs at somebody, no matter how much they piss you off.

So is it homophobic to sing along to that part of the song? Yes.

And it is not really very similar to “*****” in rap songs. As far as I am aware Kirsty MacColl wasn’t a gay man.

But would you say anyone singing along to it is a homophobe, as the man I referred to in the OP did?

Not necessarily. People might be unaware of the meaning of the word (unlikely but possible) or they might just be singing along to a song without thinking about it.

There’s little doubt it’s a homophobic lyric though. MacGowan might not have meant it that way, it was a common insult back then, but it definitely is known to be offensive nowadays.

But if you can't necessarily ascribe an attitude to MacGowan based on it - being as it is markedly a dialogue between two characters, then surely that implies that context is the crucial thing here. It can't be a homophobic lyric if the intent wasn't to be homophobic, right?

I don’t think I did ascribe an attitude to MacGowan, I specifically said he might not have meant it that way, he may have just reached for a common insult (at the time) and not thought much about it.

That doesn’t change it being homophobic though. If the lyric was “you scumbag, you sinner, you cheap lousy ******”, would you say the line was not racist?

I would say it doesn't rhyme.

Cool.

Come on, Mogg, I was just joking.

I didn't say you did ascribe an attitude to MacGowan, I was saying that the fact that you were not suggests that context is key. I guess if that's what I think then also I would have to say that your alternative line if it was in the song I wouldn't necessarily think it's a racist line. I don't think a word or line can be racist alone, I guess. It has to be imbued with intent to offend. Otherwise, I could criticise you for not using the "N word" in your post.

Of course it has to be imbued with intent to offend. Which “******” is in the context of that song. The lady in the song is using it to offend, MacGowan might not have wanted to, but it doesn’t change the fact that “******” is used as a slur.

My use of the full version of the “N word” had no intent to offend, it was there to illustrate a point.

You still used it, though, and many people would say that no white person should ever use it in any context. Not something I would necessarily agree with, of course. And as I said before, the song is markedly a dialogue between arguing characters. It's a bit like slagging off the Sopranos for having racist and homophobic characters isn't it?

The Sopranos example isn’t too bad, but would you loudly shout out the racist and homophobic quotes from the show?

No, that would be mental.

You’ve never heard people quoting movie/TV lines when they are out with their friends?

Sure, but quoting racist lines in a pub is a bit different to singing along with a song that is currently playing.

The Sopranos was your example.

We agree people quote TV/movies in pubs. We agree people sing songs in pubs. But you think it’s ok to sing homophobic/racist lyrics in pubs, but not to quote homophobic/racist lines in pubs?

My argument is that if you're quoting lines from a film or a show it's probably because you liked the lines, and may appear insensitive. It's different if you're singing along to a song. You could sing along to Panic by The Smiths and not endorse hanging DJs. Except Dr Fox.

Genuinely don't remember! This anecdote promised much but ultimately failed to deliver.

OrangeXMS wrote:Genuinely don't remember! This anecdote promised much but ultimately failed to deliver.

I don't remember this episode, I'm not surprised he didn't get it.

There's certainly Peep Show stuff that could get in trouble if you quote it around an uninformed audience. Anything Daryl says is dodgy ground for a start - he should have just stuck to the cor anglais.

Is it Christmassy to sing along to "Deck the Halls" whilst listening to Deck the Halls?

Jenu-All I Want For Christmas wrote:There's certainly Peep Show stuff that could get in trouble if you quote it around an uninformed audience. Anything Daryl says is dodgy ground for a start - he should have just stuck to the cor anglais.

I think you can say anything you want if you are drinking in the The Swan And Paedo.

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

Jenu-All I Want For Christmas wrote:There's certainly Peep Show stuff that could get in trouble if you quote it around an uninformed audience. Anything Daryl says is dodgy ground for a start - he should have just stuck to the cor anglais.

I think you can say anything you want if you are drinking in the The Swan And Paedo.

Nah, that place is a shrine to compromise, just a bunch of centrists in there. Need to watch what you say around them.

Free The Paedos is a drinking establishment for the truly enlightened.

OrangeXMS wrote:promised much but ultimately failed to deliver.

Sounds like the BBC adaptation of War of the Worlds.

Vermi Claus wrote:

OrangeXMS wrote:promised much but ultimately failed to deliver.

Sounds like the BBC adaptation of War of the Worlds.

Also the new Lib Dem slogan

Vermi Claus wrote:

OrangeXMS wrote:promised much but ultimately failed to deliver.

Sounds like the BBC adaptation of War of the Worlds.

It just kind of fizzled out like a damp fart didn't it.

Cheeky Devlin wrote:

Vermi Claus wrote:

OrangeXMS wrote:promised much but ultimately failed to deliver.

Sounds like the BBC adaptation of War of the Worlds.

It just kind of fizzled out like a damp fart didn't it.

First two episodes were pretty decent, but the third was dreadful.

Singing along with a slur isn't necessarily hateful but it is ignorant and rude and insensitive, particularly in public if you could be overheard. For the example of "f*****", it wasn't so long ago that you could be hanged for having gay sex, and it's within living memory that you could be imprisoned or castrated. That's the history you allude to by using that insult. There's not really any circumstances where it's alright for a straight person to just drop that word casually. (It's a bit different if you're gay obviously.)

If I overheard someone singing along to that lyric I wouldn't assume they have a deep hatred of gay people, but I'd think they were thoughtless and feel a bit annoyed at them.