Israel-Gaza Conflict

Bizarre that there's seemingly no pressure on Qatar - which holds the US's biggest air base in the region - to hand over Haniyeh.

What’s the context to them recognising Palestine as a state? Are they also recognising Hamas as part of the elected government? Or calling for free elections? What’s the boundary to their recognition of Palestine? Does that include the West
Bank?

"From our own history, we know what it [recognition] means," he says, referring to Ireland's independence from Britain in the 20th Century.

He describes the Hamas attack on 7 October as "barbaric", and calls "again for all hostages to be immediately returned to the arms of their loved ones".

"But let me also be clear, Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Today's decision to recognise Palestine is taken to help create a peaceful future.

"A two-state solution is the only way out of the generational cycles of violence, retaliation and resentment...

"Just as Ireland's recognition as a state eventually led to the establishment of our now peaceful republic, we believe that Palestinian statehood will contribute to peace and to reconciliation in the Middle East."

This seems to suggest Ireland won’t recognise Hamas, so I assume they will call for free elections. No mention of the Palestinian authority or Fatah. But doesn’t give any hint as to what borders they recognise as Palestine.

A bunch of EU countries already recognise the state already.

strawberry floating hell, pack it up Ireland you didn't clarify everything and other countries already did it so no point.

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:What’s the context to them recognising Palestine as a state? Are they also recognising Hamas as part of the elected government? Or calling for free elections? What’s the boundary to their recognition of Palestine? Does that include the West
Bank?

"From our own history, we know what it [recognition] means," he says, referring to Ireland's independence from Britain in the 20th Century.

He describes the Hamas attack on 7 October as "barbaric", and calls "again for all hostages to be immediately returned to the arms of their loved ones".

"But let me also be clear, Hamas is not the Palestinian people. Today's decision to recognise Palestine is taken to help create a peaceful future.

"A two-state solution is the only way out of the generational cycles of violence, retaliation and resentment...

"Just as Ireland's recognition as a state eventually led to the establishment of our now peaceful republic, we believe that Palestinian statehood will contribute to peace and to reconciliation in the Middle East."

This seems to suggest Ireland won’t recognise Hamas, so I assume they will call for free elections. No mention of the Palestinian authority or Fatah. But doesn’t give any hint as to what borders they recognise as Palestine.

Strange one. Canny domestically (siphoning away Sinn Fein voters is obviously the goal, by taking the most left-wing position available) but internationally, it seems remarkably naive - unless the govt doesn't care. We all know that elections would be free until the exact moment Hamas win, as happened before. But any recent poll suggests they'd win in a landslide anyway. I guess Hamas are here to stay and might even gain a bit of legitimacy - much like the Taliban is receiving from China and others - from October 7th.

speedboatchase wrote:but internationally, it seems remarkably naive -

Countries in green are those that recognise/announced they will recognise Palestine.

Why would calling for free elections be a part of recognising the state of Palestine? It's not like democracies only recognise the statehood of other democracies.

3/4 UN nations already recognise the state of Palestine.

Cuttooth wrote:Why would calling for free elections be a part of recognising the state of Palestine? It's not like democracies only recognise the statehood of other democracies.

3/4 UN nations already recognise the state of Palestine.

Because in recognising a Palestinian state you are recognising Hamas as the elected government of Gaza.

I'm pretty sure all the western governments recognise Russia but would like free elections.

Moggy wrote:

speedboatchase wrote:but internationally, it seems remarkably naive -

Countries in green are those that recognise/announced they will recognise Palestine.

Big win for the Hamas lads, then.

speedboatchase wrote:

Moggy wrote:

speedboatchase wrote:but internationally, it seems remarkably naive -

Countries in green are those that recognise/announced they will recognise Palestine.

Big win for the Hamas lads, then.

Stealing land and murdering tens of thousands of civilians tends to be a pretty good recruitment tool for terrorists/extremists.

But, here we are.

Recognising Palestine as a state does not equal supporting Hamas.

Benzin wrote:Recognising Palestine as a state does not equal supporting Hamas.

It does if you recognise Palestine without condemning Hamas and saying you don’t support them. See my earlier post, the Irish Prime minister has actively done this which is the correct move. He said today that they don’t recognise Palestine but not Hamas.

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:

Cuttooth wrote:Why would calling for free elections be a part of recognising the state of Palestine? It's not like democracies only recognise the statehood of other democracies.

3/4 UN nations already recognise the state of Palestine.

Because in recognising a Palestinian state you are recognising Hamas as the elected government of Gaza.

I'm pretty sure all the western governments recognise Russia but would like free elections.

No you're not, you're recognising the existence of a state and the inalienable right of a people to self determination. When a government-in-exile gets recognised by an ally it doesn't mean that ally also stops recognising the state they are in exile from.

Western governments haven't suddenly stopped recognising the state of Russia because Putin rigged the elections in March. They haven't made free and fair elections a condition of continued recognition.

Cuttooth wrote:

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:

Cuttooth wrote:Why would calling for free elections be a part of recognising the state of Palestine? It's not like democracies only recognise the statehood of other democracies.

3/4 UN nations already recognise the state of Palestine.

Because in recognising a Palestinian state you are recognising Hamas as the elected government of Gaza.

I'm pretty sure all the western governments recognise Russia but would like free elections.

No you're not, you're recognising the existence of a state and the inalienable right of a people to self determination. When a government-in-exile gets recognised by an ally it doesn't mean that ally also stops recognising the state they are in exile from.

Western governments haven't suddenly stopped recognising the state of Russia because Putin rigged the elections in March. They haven't made free and fair elections a condition of continued recognition.

I never said they had stopped recognising Russia I just said I’m confident they would like them to hold free and fair elections asap. Surely if you are moving from a position of not recognising a state to recognising it then you would be calling for the people living there to have the right of self determination. Otherwise you are saying that you are fine with the current set up.

As I’ve said the Irish PM has now stated that he doesn’t recognise Hamas. If Israel wasn’t still in their strawberry floating things up then I’m sure that would mean that they would support elections asap to get a democratically elected free government.

The International Court of Justice has just ordered Israel to immediately halt its military offensive in Rafah under the Genocide Convention.

Genuine Q - does that mean anything? I feel like none of these institutions really mean anything unless one or two countries want to use or threaten force in support of such a ruling.

speedboatchase wrote:Genuine Q - does that mean anything? I feel like none of these institutions really mean anything unless one or two countries want to use or threaten force in support of such a ruling.

In practice no as no country is going to invade Israel unless they leave Rafah.

Some of the images following the strike on the refugee camp in Rafah yesterday are some of the worst you'll ever see.

Much of the world continues to condemn the Israeli government following each "mistake" by the IDF but unless they are prepared to deal with an ICC and ICJ defying rogue state in the same way they would with other, non-allied countries on the diplomatic stage they are just letting it continue, and setting the tone for what other rogue states can try to get away with in the future.

This is hopefully the tipping point for anyone who might have previously dismissed this conflict as being too complicated to have any genuine thoughts on, or where the UK has absolutely no international presence to help prevent some horrific crimes against humanity.

It’s one thing to call for a Palestinian state but what I can’t get my head around is why nobody, not even the USA seems to be calling for the surrender of Hamas.

Surely the only way for the war to end is the removal of both sets of aggressors, in this case Netanyahu and Hama?

Control of the West Bank should be handed over to neighbouring states with more of a neutral stance such as Jordan until such time as the currently corrupt government can be removed. It should not be a western state that has control.

Gaza needs investment to rebuild it. Control could pop potentially be temporarily segued to Egypt whilst the USA gets an international council together, controlled by more moderate, richer Arab status into seeing the potential for the area. Based on location alone Gaza could be rebuilt into a new Dubai of sorts.

Do the Palestinians get any say at all what happens to their country. Or are we just letting Egypt/Jordan turn it into a new Dubai?