Israel-Gaza Conflict

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<]:^D
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PostRe: Israel-Gaza Conflict
by <]:^D » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:37 pm

Hexx wrote:
<]:^D wrote:you think calling for the genocide of black people wouldnt count as bullying or harassment on a university campus?

Speech on it's own is neither of things by their very definition. Try this simple test. Who's been bullied and harassed? Hell say outloud in your room "Death to all Blacks" (we know you don't mean it). Who've you've bullied and harassed?


im not on a university campus with people im calling to be murdered - thats a poor analogy

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PostRe: Israel-Gaza Conflict
by Moggy » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:37 pm

"You've heard chants for intifada"

I stopped there, it's clearly a desperate attempt at a gotcha. Especially when the congresswoman is a supporter of statues celebrating genocide.

https://cbs6albany.com/amp/news/local/s ... ler-statue

To be clear, calling for the genocide of Jews, death to Jews or anything of the sort is disgusting and despicable. I just wish people would condemn it because it's disgusting, not just for political points.

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Hexx
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PostRe: Israel-Gaza Conflict
by Hexx » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:38 pm

<]:^D wrote:i tried to find Harvard guidelines on free speech etc and found the following: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/faculty-af ... edom-faqs/

Free speech is a legal concept: The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution protects written and spoken speech, as well as expressive conduct (such as burning a flag) from interference by the government. There are some limitations here: Government can impose some restrictions on the “time, place, and manner” of speech, for instance by requiring permits for a protest march, and certain forms of expression may fall outside the protection of the First Amendment and be subject to regulation, such as defamation, disclosure of classified information, speech that incites violence, and legal obscenity.

In addition, the First Amendment does not apply to private companies or institutions, including private universities such as Harvard.

Freedom of expression is the broad principle that human beings have the right to speak their views. It’s incorporated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a fundamental human right. It’s important to note that certain forms of expression may be unlawful, such as slander, disclosure of classified information, or incitement to violence.

remember that the question was did calling for genocide "violate the universities code of conduct" - i believe the distinction between action and speech is a misguided distinction in this case.


They say code of conduct a few times but keep bringing it back to bullying and harassment (as do the answers unhelpful)

It’s important to note that certain forms of expression may be unlawful, such as slander, disclosure of classified information, or incitement to violence.


As I said you'd break several other rules, potentially even laws, (and I don't think anyone should be allowed to chant Death to XXXXX on campus :P) but you wouldn't inherently being bully and harassing.

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PostRe: Israel-Gaza Conflict
by <]:^D » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:39 pm

agreed (to Moggy) - the point i was trying to make that is i think its extremely unpleasant that these three representatives seem to be more interested in scoring an intellectual point that "conduct and speech are two different things" rather than making it clear that genocidal chants would be violating codes of conduct - that seems to suggest that it is permissible!

also lots of ad hominems (is that right) in here - i dont care who the chairperson is im trying to focus on what is being said in response to a simple question!

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Hexx
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PostRe: Israel-Gaza Conflict
by Hexx » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:42 pm

<]:^D wrote:
Hexx wrote:
<]:^D wrote:you think calling for the genocide of black people wouldnt count as bullying or harassment on a university campus?

Speech on it's own is neither of things by their very definition. Try this simple test. Who's been bullied and harassed? Hell say outloud in your room "Death to all Blacks" (we know you don't mean it). Who've you've bullied and harassed?


im not on a university campus with people im calling to be murdered - thats a poor analogy


It's a spot on analogy. You can say something horrific and wrong and it still not be bullying and harassing. We've just shown that (Thanks)

See you're applying context to your conduct, and now assuming who will hear words in other contexts. So where you say, what you say and who hear it matters. Which is exactly what all 3 of them repeatedly try to explain.

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PostRe: Israel-Gaza Conflict
by <]:^D » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:46 pm

calls for genocide, in public, so that Jewish students can hear, do not violate a schools code of conduct? i think that is wrong. think how you would feel to hear that at an institution that you attend for 4 years. i think that would easily constitute harassment or even bullying as it is directed at a minority group.
i find this bizarre that we're defending this as permissible conduct - note i didnt say 'morally right'.

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PostRe: Israel-Gaza Conflict
by Hexx » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:46 pm

<]:^D wrote:in response to a simple question!


A simple question designed to play a certain way, present a certain inference and ignore the reality of the situation.

For instance

Have you stopped punching every homeless person you meet? Yes or No.

It's a simple question <]:^D Yes or No.

If you can't give us a simple a Yes or No answer in front of this huge audience, well they'll all hear it.

And so on.

(To be clear <]:^D has never punched a homeless person. That I know of :shifty: )

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PostRe: Israel-Gaza Conflict
by Hexx » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:47 pm

<]:^D wrote:calls for genocide, in public, so that Jewish students can hear, do not violate a schools code of conduct?


What time stamp in the clip (or other clip if you want to link) says that? They don't

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PostRe: Israel-Gaza Conflict
by <]:^D » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:49 pm

bro the first question:
"does calling for genocide of Jews count as violating the MIT code of conduct"
response
"not if said in public, only if targeted at individuals"
so therefore at MIT (?) it is permissible (and does not violate their code of conduct) to chant "death to Jews"!
that's wrong (imo)

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Cuttooth
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PostRe: Israel-Gaza Conflict
by Cuttooth » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:53 pm

twitter.com/un/status/1732452271152050454



When they say “first time ever” they mean it’s the first time Guterres has invoked Article 99 but it’s still rare.

Article 99 being:
The Secretary-General may bring to the attention of the Security Council any matter which in his opinion may threaten the maintenance of international peace and security.

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Hexx
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PostRe: Israel-Gaza Conflict
by Hexx » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:55 pm

<]:^D wrote:bro the first question:
"does calling for genocide of Jews count as violating the MIT code of conduct"
response
"not if said in public, only if targeted at individuals"
so therefore at MIT (?) it is permissible (and does not violate their code of conduct) to chant "death to Jews"!
that's wrong (imo)


Um? Bro you're outright making things up now

"At MIT does calling for the genocide of Jews violate MIT's code of conduct or rules regarding bullying and harassment. Yes or no"
"If targeted at individuals, not making public statements"
"Yes or No. Calling for genocide of Jews does not constitute bulling or harassment?"
"I've not heard calls for the genocide of Jews on our camapus"

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PostRe: Israel-Gaza Conflict
by <]:^D » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:55 pm

Hexx wrote:
<]:^D wrote:in response to a simple question!


A simple question designed to play a certain way, present a certain inference and ignore the reality of the situation.

For instance

Have you stopped punching every homeless person you meet? Yes or No.

It's a simple question <]:^D Yes or No.

If you can't give us a simple a Yes or No answer in front of this huge audience, well they'll all hear it.

And so on.

(To be clear <]:^D has never punched a homeless person. That I know of :shifty: )


i do see this as a closer analogy - however, it is not quite the same
the context (that Israel should be criticised) is relevant but the question was specifically about the schools code of conduct, not the rightness or wrongness of preserving free speech
you can see why the school representatives are being defensive - if they say Yes, then they will be questioned about why they are not doing more to prevent antisemitic conduct, and blah blah you should resign.
however i believe by trying to avoid painting themselves into that corner, theyve painted themselves into an even smaller one!

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PostRe: Israel-Gaza Conflict
by <]:^D » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:56 pm

whatever Hexx, youre now adding more requests to quotes where i provided the specific one you asked for - moving the goalposts. this is a waste of my time.

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Hexx
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PostRe: Israel-Gaza Conflict
by Hexx » Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:58 pm

<]:^D wrote:whatever Hexx, youre now adding more requests to quotes where i provided the specific one you asked for - moving the goalposts. this is a waste of my time.


but the question was specifically about the schools code of conduct


I'm just pointing out to make the exchange say what you wanted (specifically about indeed) you had to not quote about 1/2 of it so not to include the context

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Hexx
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PostRe: Israel-Gaza Conflict
by Hexx » Wed Dec 06, 2023 8:02 pm

Cuttooth wrote:

twitter.com/un/status/1732452271152050454



When they say “first time ever” they mean it’s the first time Guterres has invoked Article 99 but it’s still rare.

Article 99 being:
The Secretary-General may bring to the attention of the Security Council any matter which in his opinion may threaten the maintenance of international peace and security.


Did he condemn Hamas and the October 7th attacks sufficiently before making this call?

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Moggy
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PostRe: Israel-Gaza Conflict
by Moggy » Wed Dec 06, 2023 8:25 pm

<]:^D wrote:agreed (to Moggy) - the point i was trying to make that is i think its extremely unpleasant that these three representatives seem to be more interested in scoring an intellectual point that "conduct and speech are two different things" rather than making it clear that genocidal chants would be violating codes of conduct - that seems to suggest that it is permissible!

also lots of ad hominems (is that right) in here - i dont care who the chairperson is im trying to focus on what is being said in response to a simple question!


What we see in the clip is a hard right congresswoman asking unfair questions. Just to score political points to "own the wokies".

The university representatives do a bad job, they really should be able to diffuse those questions and give much better answers, but the questions are not phrased in a way that's designed to get a sensible answer. They are designed to give the congresswoman some kudos amongst the right wing.

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Qikz
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PostRe: Israel-Gaza Conflict
by Qikz » Thu Dec 07, 2023 8:16 am

Cuttooth wrote:

twitter.com/un/status/1732452271152050454



When they say “first time ever” they mean it’s the first time Guterres has invoked Article 99 but it’s still rare.

Article 99 being:
The Secretary-General may bring to the attention of the Security Council any matter which in his opinion may threaten the maintenance of international peace and security.


Given that America is actively helping Israel with the ethnic cleansing of the palestinian people and they're at the top of the UN I can't imagine this will amount to much sadly.

The Watching Artist wrote:I feel so inept next to Qikz...
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PostRe: Israel-Gaza Conflict
by Grumpy David » Thu Dec 07, 2023 2:42 pm

President Liz Magill:

“I want to be clear, a call for genocide of Jewish people is threatening—deeply so. It is intentionally meant to terrify a people who have been subjected to pogroms and hatred for centuries and were the victims of mass genocide in the Holocaust. In my view, it would be harassment or intimidation.”


twitter.com/Penn/status/1732549608230862999



twitter.com/Harvard/status/1732447178491109411



Walking back from what was said under oath.

The New York Times article is also worth reading. College Presidents Under Fire After Dodging Questions About Antisemitism - The leaders of Harvard, M.I.T. and Penn appeared to evade questions about whether students should be disciplined if they call for the genocide of Jews.

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Hexx
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PostRe: Israel-Gaza Conflict
by Hexx » Thu Dec 07, 2023 3:17 pm

They "dodged" or "evaded" questions :slol:

Yesterday they gave answer ("specifically" in some cases: D) that were horrific. Today they did something different. Gotta keep up the unrelenting attacks regardless of the inconvenient facts.

Jesus the war propaganda arm is unrelenting. What's amazing is despite the overwhelming institutional support for it - it's failing.

On that note:

twitter.com/PSCupdates/status/1732431212176638013


Last edited by Hexx on Thu Dec 07, 2023 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hexx
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PostRe: Israel-Gaza Conflict
by Hexx » Thu Dec 07, 2023 3:21 pm

Meanwhile away from manufactured outrage

The head of medical charity Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) said that Gaza faces a catastrophe extending far beyond a humanitarian crisis, describing the situation in the densely populated enclave as chaotic.

Israeli forces battled Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip’s biggest cities on Thursday in a new phase of the war that is now entering its third month, with wide areas of the narrow territory flattened by Israeli bombardment and 85% of the 2.3 million population left homeless, according to UN figures.

Dr Christos Christou, international president of Doctors Without Borders, told reporters in Geneva:

My people on the ground keep updating me on the situation, and I can tell you that it has gone far beyond the humanitarian crisis.

It is a humanitarian catastrophe. It is a chaotic situation, and I’m extremely worried that very soon people will be in a mode of just trying to survive, which will come with very severe consequences..


And the West Bank situation is quickly skyrocking. Belgium (yes Belgium) leading the charge

twitter.com/pdsutter/status/1732672579100377284



The EU/US are looking even more disjointed and the internal EU divisions are deepening too....


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