Legend of Zelda - General series chat

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shy guy 64
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PostRe: Legend of Zelda - General series chat
by shy guy 64 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:32 pm

personally i love all the zelda games

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PostRe: Legend of Zelda - General series chat
by OrangeRKN » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:26 am

VlaSoul wrote:I'd go so far as to say BOTW has the reverse problem. The constant open world exploration can very easily get boring in that game past the like 50 hour point...


Oh so you /do/ just have incorrect opinions ;)

VlaSoul wrote:the thing that very much frustrates me about Skyward Sword is how railroaded it actually feels and how that grinds against your expectations when you start the game, that being early on you're offered to explore this mysterious and unknowable world below, but it instead ends up being a series of corridors whose design feels practically unorganic. This really ends up breaking immersion as you're quite clearly in some dumbass video game world filled with slow and uninteresting motion control puzzles.


Like I said before I think SS did play against the expectations many people had for what a Zelda game should be, and that caught it unfair criticism.

I do agree that SS isn't particularly immersive, and I think that's a genre thing. Linear action adventures don't really immerse me in the same way that huge open world RPGs can, but I don't expect them to. There's nothing wrong with being very aware I'm playing a videogame, and in fact I think that's sort of the point with SS where a lot of the combat and item design comes down to novel use of motion controls. Which leads me on to...

VlaSoul wrote:Also I think Twilight Princess is actually easier to go back than Skyward Sword on account of what the games each set out to do; while SS strives to innovate and sort of achieves that, TP takes what was established in previous Zelda games and then refines it, thus it feels like the most complete and well realised traditional 3D Zelda. SS is full of new ideas but as enumerated above a lot of them are underdeveloped by comparison.


I think it comes down to how much you favour novelty against refinement. I definitely lean towards the novelty side - I enjoy playing pretty average or even bad games if they have interesting ideas, even if they aren't executed that well. Of course I also appreciate refinement, but if a game does nothing else it can end up feeling stale. TP feels very stale to me, while SS evolves the series with for me a perfect blend of old and new, not just with the motion controls but with other design choices such as weapon and item upgrades. I enjoy SS particularly then because it has both novelty and refinement!

(Also to come back to immersion, even BOTW isn't that immersive! I was always very aware I was playing a videogame because the interacting systems of the game are designed to be constantly played with and discovered. Immersive games more rely on the gameplay systems being known so the player isn't pulled out of the world, while BOTW puts the focus very much on those systems.)

tl;dr I think our different opinions come down to:

- Expectations from Zelda
- How important having both open world exploration and linear dungeons is rather than the game focusing on one or the other
- Preference for novelty or refinement in gameplay

They're all fair enough things to have opposite opinions on really!

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Drumstick
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PostRe: Legend of Zelda - General series chat
by Drumstick » Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:15 am

Balladeer wrote:There was an HD re-release of TP on the Wii U. It only really serves to show up how the art style was a mistake and the game looks ugly regardless of definition.

Still a corker though, and my favourite ‘traditional’ (i.e. non-BotW) Zelda.

Oh good, I've got TP unplayed on Gamecube. Having only completed OoT and BOTW in the Zelda universe, I hope I'll be able to get into it.

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PostRe: Legend of Zelda - General series chat
by Jenuall » Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:41 am

If Nintendo don't pull their finger out and do a Switch release of TP and SS then I'm going to end up just emulating them both. They're the only two gaps in my experience of the "mainline" games and I would like to play them soon ideally!

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PostRe: Legend of Zelda - General series chat
by Tomous » Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:44 am

They should really port WWHD and TPHD and release them as a double pack.

They won't, because Nintendo rarely do that kinda thing, but it would sell like hotcakes and really gain them so goodwill with the fanbase after some of the recent port pricing.

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PostRe: Legend of Zelda - General series chat
by Balladeer » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:01 pm

Drumstick wrote:
Balladeer wrote:There was an HD re-release of TP on the Wii U. It only really serves to show up how the art style was a mistake and the game looks ugly regardless of definition.

Still a corker though, and my favourite ‘traditional’ (i.e. non-BotW) Zelda.

Oh good, I've got TP unplayed on Gamecube. Having only completed OoT and BOTW in the Zelda universe, I hope I'll be able to get into it.

Hope you enjoy my man. It might have aged a bit, but it’s still good stuff. Much like Cook playing for Essex. [/drumstickballacrosspost]

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PostRe: Legend of Zelda - General series chat
by OrangeRKN » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:07 pm

Jenuall wrote:If Nintendo don't pull their finger out and do a Switch release of TP and SS then I'm going to end up just emulating them both.


I can't see SS ever working without motion controls, that's the problem with re-releasing it. They're integral to the game's design. You could remake the game to not use motion controls, but the experience would be hugely different.

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PostRe: Legend of Zelda - General series chat
by The Watching Artist » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:15 pm

Drumstick wrote:
Balladeer wrote:There was an HD re-release of TP on the Wii U. It only really serves to show up how the art style was a mistake and the game looks ugly regardless of definition.

Still a corker though, and my favourite ‘traditional’ (i.e. non-BotW) Zelda.

Oh good, I've got TP unplayed on Gamecube. Having only completed OoT and BOTW in the Zelda universe, I hope I'll be able to get into it.

TP is fantastic (its a fight between that and SS as my 2nd fav Zelda) although the Wii U version with GamePad controls is best. Motion control aiming and touch screen item selection. :wub: Play it or I'll go find your Dad :capnscotty:
OrangeRKN wrote:
Jenuall wrote:If Nintendo don't pull their finger out and do a Switch release of TP and SS then I'm going to end up just emulating them both.


I can't see SS ever working without motion controls, that's the problem with re-releasing it. They're integral to the game's design. You could remake the game to not use motion controls, but the experience would be hugely different.

This.

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PostRe: Legend of Zelda - General series chat
by Jenuall » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:42 pm

The Watching Artist wrote:
Drumstick wrote:
Balladeer wrote:There was an HD re-release of TP on the Wii U. It only really serves to show up how the art style was a mistake and the game looks ugly regardless of definition.

Still a corker though, and my favourite ‘traditional’ (i.e. non-BotW) Zelda.

Oh good, I've got TP unplayed on Gamecube. Having only completed OoT and BOTW in the Zelda universe, I hope I'll be able to get into it.

TP is fantastic (its a fight between that and SS as my 2nd fav Zelda) although the Wii U version with GamePad controls is best. Motion control aiming and touch screen item selection. :wub: Play it or I'll go find your Dad :capnscotty:
OrangeRKN wrote:
Jenuall wrote:If Nintendo don't pull their finger out and do a Switch release of TP and SS then I'm going to end up just emulating them both.


I can't see SS ever working without motion controls, that's the problem with re-releasing it. They're integral to the game's design. You could remake the game to not use motion controls, but the experience would be hugely different.

This.

Having not played it I wasn't sure how limiting the motion control stuff would be to its portability. That's a shame. :(

Is it more than they could replicate using the JoyCon gyro then?

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PostRe: Legend of Zelda - General series chat
by Tomous » Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:06 pm

Jenuall wrote:
The Watching Artist wrote:
Drumstick wrote:
Balladeer wrote:There was an HD re-release of TP on the Wii U. It only really serves to show up how the art style was a mistake and the game looks ugly regardless of definition.

Still a corker though, and my favourite ‘traditional’ (i.e. non-BotW) Zelda.

Oh good, I've got TP unplayed on Gamecube. Having only completed OoT and BOTW in the Zelda universe, I hope I'll be able to get into it.

TP is fantastic (its a fight between that and SS as my 2nd fav Zelda) although the Wii U version with GamePad controls is best. Motion control aiming and touch screen item selection. :wub: Play it or I'll go find your Dad :capnscotty:
OrangeRKN wrote:
Jenuall wrote:If Nintendo don't pull their finger out and do a Switch release of TP and SS then I'm going to end up just emulating them both.


I can't see SS ever working without motion controls, that's the problem with re-releasing it. They're integral to the game's design. You could remake the game to not use motion controls, but the experience would be hugely different.

This.

Having not played it I wasn't sure how limiting the motion control stuff would be to its portability. That's a shame. :(

Is it more than they could replicate using the JoyCon gyro then?



The joycons would obviously be fine in docked but I can’t see how they could get it working in handheld without significantly reworking the game.

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PostRe: Legend of Zelda - General series chat
by VlaSoul » Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:25 pm

i wrote too much again
OrangeRKN wrote:
VlaSoul wrote:I'd go so far as to say BOTW has the reverse problem. The constant open world exploration can very easily get boring in that game past the like 50 hour point...


Oh so you /do/ just have correct opinions ;)

oh wow thank you

OrangeRKN wrote:Like I said before I think SS did play against the expectations many people had for what a Zelda game should be, and that caught it unfair criticism.

I think I might not have written this out too clearly, but in terms of my expectations it was more like what the game itself was building up those areas to be as opposed to what I expect of Zelda, as while I didnt go in blind per se, SS was one of the first Zelda games I actually played myself (I've had games in the series since I was a kid but I didnt actually get into video games until I was 12, before then it was the domain of my younger brother)

OrangeRKN wrote:I do agree that SS isn't particularly immersive, and I think that's a genre thing. Linear action adventures don't really immerse me in the same way that huge open world RPGs can, but I don't expect them to. There's nothing wrong with being very aware I'm playing a videogame, and in fact I think that's sort of the point with SS where a lot of the combat and item design comes down to novel use of motion controls. Which leads me on to...

VlaSoul wrote:Also I think Twilight Princess is actually easier to go back than Skyward Sword on account of what the games each set out to do; while SS strives to innovate and sort of achieves that, TP takes what was established in previous Zelda games and then refines it, thus it feels like the most complete and well realised traditional 3D Zelda. SS is full of new ideas but as enumerated above a lot of them are underdeveloped by comparison.


I think it comes down to how much you favour novelty against refinement. I definitely lean towards the novelty side - I enjoy playing pretty average or even bad games if they have interesting ideas, even if they aren't executed that well. Of course I also appreciate refinement, but if a game does nothing else it can end up feeling stale. TP feels very stale to me, while SS evolves the series with for me a perfect blend of old and new, not just with the motion controls but with other design choices such as weapon and item upgrades. I enjoy SS particularly then because it has both novelty and refinement!

(Also to come back to immersion, even BOTW isn't that immersive! I was always very aware I was playing a videogame because the interacting systems of the game are designed to be constantly played with and discovered. Immersive games more rely on the gameplay systems being known so the player isn't pulled out of the world, while BOTW puts the focus very much on those systems.)


In terms of immersion for me it's how well everything in the game seems to fit together, and I feel like BOTW integrates its systems very well into its world, even if they are video-gamey. They feel like natural parts of my toolkit and how I interact with the world in that game, and as such it remains immersive. And when it comes to action games, my favourites (Bayonetta, No More Heroes) still feel immersive to me, and that's a result of the design overall making sense together I guess? It's kind of hard to explain but Skyward Sword gives me a feeling of dissonance that I generally don't get from narrative driven games like it and I think that's down to the design and the way you interact with the world being so...weird? again I'm not sure how I can explain that feeling

I'm fine with feeling like it's a video game for most stuff, but if the game's driven by a narrative that I'm supposed to take seriously and care about, I'd say it outright has to immerse the player for it to work on all levels and Skyward Sword quite handily doesn't succeed in that.

In terms of novelty vs refinement, yeah I can't argue with you there. It does come down to taste; and while ideally a game should have well executed new ideas, if it's simply a refinement of ideas that already work I'm ok with that (to a point; the constant stream of CoDs and FIFAs, while refining the gameplay every time are still excessive). I'd much rather have a familiar experience that is executed well as opposed to new ideas that aren't done well. If it comes to innovation vs refinement at a similar level of quality, I'd probably go for innovation tho

OrangeRKN wrote:tl;dr I think our different opinions come down to:

- Expectations from Zelda
- How important having both open world exploration and linear dungeons is rather than the game focusing on one or the other
- Preference for novelty or refinement in gameplay

They're all fair enough things to have opposite opinions on really!

no strawberry float you only my opinion is fact
but yeah fair enough, while I think Skyward Sword has issues our enjoyment and perception of the game is almost certainly down to differences in what we value from games


OrangeRKN wrote:
Jenuall wrote:If Nintendo don't pull their finger out and do a Switch release of TP and SS then I'm going to end up just emulating them both.


I can't see SS ever working without motion controls, that's the problem with re-releasing it. They're integral to the game's design. You could remake the game to not use motion controls, but the experience would be hugely different.

theoretically you could map the sword and aiming to the c-stick(is it still called that?) and it'd be a similar-ish experience, tho it would likely be more precise, it certainly wouldnt give the desired experience (not that I think SS' motion controls are perfect, and i strawberry floating hate them but outside of the bird controls that's largely a matter of taste)
but you can use a wiimote on dolphin and if nintendo were to re-release it, i imagine it would probably use the joycons' motion sensors (or whatever is in those things)

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Drumstick
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PostRe: Legend of Zelda - General series chat
by Drumstick » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:51 pm

Balladeer wrote:Hope you enjoy my man. It might have aged a bit, but it’s still good stuff. Much like Cook playing for Essex. [/drumstickballacrosspost]

He is going to score at least 5 tons this year. Definitely will be in the top 3 run scorers overall in Div 1.

The Watching Artist wrote: Play it or I'll go find your Dad :capnscotty:

:lol:

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PostRe: Legend of Zelda - General series chat
by Hyperion » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:51 am

jawafour wrote:
Ad7 wrote:Did you finish skyward sword Jawa?

Scaldera was my nemesis for a few years... but I defeated him eventually 8-) .

And then I took a break :shifty: . I really enjoyed the gameworld and atmosphere up to that point, though. I like Zelda games but the bosses are just too tough :x .

^^^ Originally that comic sequence had a number of frames but, sadly, only two appear to remain available on the inter webs now. Edit: Hang on! It's all there now :toot: .


This makes me the saddest :cry:

Four and a half years ago jawafour wrote:Its happened! Victory against Scaldera... at last!

Thanks for the help, guys. I have been stuck on that point and I gave up in January 2013... but now Scaldera is no more and I can carry on enjoying the adventure. Yeah!


jawa :(

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PostRe: Legend of Zelda - General series chat
by Errkal » Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:07 am

Don’t be sad, it’s jawa, he saw a ball or something shiny and ran off chasing it.

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PostRe: Legend of Zelda - General series chat
by Balladeer » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:23 am

Drumstick wrote:
Balladeer wrote:Hope you enjoy my man. It might have aged a bit, but it’s still good stuff. Much like Cook playing for Essex. [/drumstickballacrosspost]

He is going to score at least 5 tons this year. Definitely will be in the top 3 run scorers overall in Div 1.

Breaks my heart that there was never a Motion+-enabled cricket game. :(

Look I made it relevant to the thread!

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PostRe: Legend of Zelda - General series chat
by jawafour » Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:39 am

Hyperion wrote:This makes me the saddest :cry: ...

Don't worry, Hypes - I like Zelda games but, being honest, the boss battles often grind my gears; I prefer the "adventuring and exploring" parts. I did enjoy traveling across the "sky islands" and I will return to Skyward one day!

Errkal wrote:...he saw a ball or something shiny and ran off chasing it.

Truth! In past years my head was turned by gaming hype and excitement, but now I'm sticking with games. A change in focus :-) .

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PostRe: Legend of Zelda - General series chat
by The Watching Artist » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:10 pm

jawafour wrote:
Hyperion wrote:This makes me the saddest :cry: ...

Don't worry, Hypes - I like Zelda games but, being honest, the boss battles often grind my gears; I prefer the "adventuring and exploring" parts. I did enjoy traveling across the "sky islands" and I will return to Skyward one day!

Yet you went and bought Dark Souls and BB knowing full well what was ahead of you. :lol: (Zelda bosses are much kinder btw)

Hypes. All that effort we went to. :cry:

For what its worth I'm still planning on streaming the rest of the 3D Zeldas after doing OOT earlier in the year. BOTW aside that is. Not sure how I'm going to get SS working though.

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PostRe: Legend of Zelda - General series chat
by jawafour » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:37 pm

The Watching Artist wrote:...you went and bought Dark Souls and BB knowing full well what was ahead of you. :lol: (Zelda bosses are much kinder btw)...

I have yet to tackle Souls; and I will return to 'Borne and Skyward at some point. I'm wary of juggling too many games so I'm sticking to three at the moment!

The Watching Artist wrote:...I'm still planning on streaming the rest of the 3D Zeldas after doing OOT earlier in the year...

I'm well up for watching you journey through Wind Waker, Twilight and Skyward, Matt :toot: .

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PostRe: Legend of Zelda - General series chat
by Victor Mildew » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:32 pm

I was away for the weekend so I took my long forgotten and neglected 3ds xl with me. Soooo many great games on it, but also links awakening DX :wub: Was right before meeting Marin at the beach, getting the walrus to shift and getting the angler's key. Did most of that dungeon before I had to turn it off. Such a brilliant game :wub:

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PostRe: Legend of Zelda - General series chat
by Green Gecko » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:35 pm

Ad7 wrote:I was away for the weekend so I took my long forgotten and neglected 3ds xl with me. Soooo many great games on it, but also links awakening DX :wub: Was right before meeting Marin at the beach, getting the walrus to shift and getting the angler's key. Did most of that dungeon before I had to turn it off. Such a brilliant game :wub:

Are you aware of the hold start and select while booting option to play in gameboy colour view? It's great.

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