Marvel’s Spider-Man: Miles Morales | PS4/PS5 | OUT NOW

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Tomous
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PostRe: Marvel’s Spider-Man: Miles Morales | PS4/PS5 | Christmas 2020
by Tomous » Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:01 pm

jawa wrote:
Tomous wrote:...We should be holding our entertainment to a higher standard because it shapes so many people's world views and I think Miles Morales deserves criticism for shining such a positive light on such a corrupt organisation as the US police force.

I tend to get a bit angsty when generalisations and blanket-comments are made. In my mind, there is little difference between the comment that Taf highlighted in that review about "the exaggerated swagger of a black teen" and your suggestion, Tom, that the US police force is corrupt. Just as the assertion that all young black people have "swagger" - as if colour were somehow a reason for this - is wrong, then I feel that suggesting that the whole US police force is corrupt is similarly wrong. There definitely are some bad eggs in the police - as we all know from some of the heinous crimes committed in past months - but personally I'd be hesitant to tar all people in the organisation with that brush.


It is not even nearly the same thing. I didnt say every police man in the NYPD is corrupt. I said the organisation is corrupt. And it demonstrably is, by continuing to cover up and failing to hold officers who break the law to account.

This is calling a spade, a spade. If an organisation keeps doing corrupt things, then it is corrupt.

Do you think Trump has a corrupt government beneath him? Undoubtedly yes. Is every member of his Government a corrupt individual? Probably not, but it is still a corrupt organisation

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PostRe: Marvel’s Spider-Man: Miles Morales | PS4/PS5 | Christmas 2020
by ITSMILNER » Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:14 pm

Speaking of the police in game, I wonder if we will see any ‘Spider-Cop’ style banter again, I really liked that stuff in the original :lol:

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PostRe: Marvel’s Spider-Man: Miles Morales | PS4/PS5 | Christmas 2020
by jawa » Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:51 pm

Tomous wrote:It is not even nearly the same thing. I didnt say every police man in the NYPD is corrupt. I said the organisation is corrupt. And it demonstrably is, by continuing to cover up and failing to hold officers who break the law to account.

This is calling a spade, a spade. If an organisation keeps doing corrupt things, then it is corrupt.

Do you think Trump has a corrupt government beneath him? Undoubtedly yes. Is every member of his Government a corrupt individual? Probably not, but it is still a corrupt organisation

I don't feel - myself - that the US police force is corrupt. That's not to say that I don't think there are some bad people working for the force that have done some awful things, nor that I don't think they should be held accountable for their actions. But I couldn't look at the overall picture and say that the whole force is corrupt.

I just read through the Vice review of the game. The writer clearly has some strong opinions about the NYPD. I genuinely don't know if the guy is spot-on or not; but, hey, I've never stepped foot into New York and he lives there.

I'm interested by the last few lines of the review as they perhaps summarise the impression that I took away from the text:

...the game cannot reconcile the differences between its New York and the one I see outside my window. That failure would be understandable, but what is unforgivable is that it does not even make the attempt.


It feels like the writer expected the game to offer a replication of his own experiences of New York. I can understand that, but I do wonder if we should be looking at Spider-Man - or even videogames in general - to offer an exact copy of reality. That's not to say that a game can't reflect real life, nor that it shouldn't; but going into a superhero videogame with the thinking that it should mirror all elements of the real world is probably a case of needing to manage expectations.

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PostRe: Marvel’s Spider-Man: Miles Morales | PS4/PS5 | Christmas 2020
by Saint of Killers » Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:54 pm

ITSMILNER wrote:Speaking of the police in game, I wonder if we will see any ‘Spider-Cop’ style banter again, I really liked that stuff in the original :lol:


Yes, I quite liked those as well. Though I did start ending those conversations toward the end of the game, but I hope we get something similar this time around.

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PostRe: Marvel’s Spider-Man: Miles Morales | PS4/PS5 | Christmas 2020
by speedboatchase » Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:54 pm

Tomous wrote:
jawa wrote:
Tomous wrote:...We should be holding our entertainment to a higher standard because it shapes so many people's world views and I think Miles Morales deserves criticism for shining such a positive light on such a corrupt organisation as the US police force.

I tend to get a bit angsty when generalisations and blanket-comments are made. In my mind, there is little difference between the comment that Taf highlighted in that review about "the exaggerated swagger of a black teen" and your suggestion, Tom, that the US police force is corrupt. Just as the assertion that all young black people have "swagger" - as if colour were somehow a reason for this - is wrong, then I feel that suggesting that the whole US police force is corrupt is similarly wrong. There definitely are some bad eggs in the police - as we all know from some of the heinous crimes committed in past months - but personally I'd be hesitant to tar all people in the organisation with that brush.


It is not even nearly the same thing. I didnt say every police man in the NYPD is corrupt. I said the organisation is corrupt. And it demonstrably is, by continuing to cover up and failing to hold officers who break the law to account.

This is calling a spade, a spade. If an organisation keeps doing corrupt things, then it is corrupt.

Do you think Trump has a corrupt government beneath him? Undoubtedly yes. Is every member of his Government a corrupt individual? Probably not, but it is still a corrupt organisation


That's a perfectly rational and logical argument, but the bulk of what's being put forth in that review is hyper-personalised and... dare I call someone's lived experience 'irrational'? There's a difference between calling an institution such as the NYPD corrupt, and someone chanting "NYPD, suck my dick" as the reviewer did, referring to the entire police force as "notoriously racist" and approving the implication that POC police officers are Uncle Toms.

To me, there's a medium for that kind of take and the lines of op-ed and review are deliberately blurred in this instance. That's VICE's call, there's an audience for it and it's well-written, but to me a great reviewer is like a great football referee - they're doing their best work when they are unnoticed. This was akin to the one-page takes that Edge magazine has right next to their biggest reviews. But VICE gonna VICE and that's their prerogative.

Anyway, anyone picking this up on PS4 or would that be a waste of time?

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PostRe: Marvel’s Spider-Man: Miles Morales | PS4/PS5 | Christmas 2020
by Saint of Killers » Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:06 pm

jawa wrote:
...the game cannot reconcile the differences between its New York and the one I see outside my window. That failure would be understandable, but what is unforgivable is that it does not even make the attempt.


It feels like the writer expected the game to offer a replication of his own experiences of New York. I can understand that, but I do wonder if we should be looking at Spider-Man - or even videogames in general - to offer an exact copy of reality. That's not to say that a game can't reflect real life, nor that it shouldn't; but going into a superhero videogame with the thinking that it should mirror all elements of the real world is probably a case of needing to manage expectations.


First of all, the reviewer isn't asking for a exact copy of reality; I doubt he wants to see a black man being choked by the police because reasons as he swings by. They want to see the game at least try and show a modicum of reality. Maybe not ACAB, Marvel would never allow that, but maybe at least some cops.

Why shouldn't we expect better from entertainment? If we didn't then where would the diversity be in games right now? And I'm not just talking about diversity of cast, but also of genres. Also, this game has a age rating of 16. There's a lot that could be done with that besides just cartoon violence. The source material has long dared to tread ground that wouldn't usually be seen as appropiate for comics. Are games somehow a lesser form of entertainment to try and do the same?

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PostRe: Marvel’s Spider-Man: Miles Morales | PS4/PS5 | Christmas 2020
by Buffalo » Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:15 pm

Lots of really glowing reviews for this, no surprises there really. I’m seeing stuff like, to paraphrase, ‘a great next gen showcase’ but one gushing review was playing it on a vanilla PS4.
I’m going to play it on my Pro, trying to enjoy it while I quietly seethe at you lucky PS5 types who were quick on the ball to get a console.

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PostRe: Marvel’s Spider-Man: Miles Morales | PS4/PS5 | Christmas 2020
by jawa » Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:15 pm

Saint of Killers wrote:First of all, the reviewer isn't asking for a exact copy of reality; I doubt he wants to see a black man being choked by the police because reasons as he swings by. They want to see the game at least try and show a modicum of reality. Maybe not ACAB, Marvel would never allow that, but maybe at least some cops.

Why shouldn't we expect better from entertainment? If we didn't then where would the diversity be in games right now? And I'm not just talking about diversity of cast, but also of genres. Also, this game has a age rating of 16. There's a lot that could be done with that besides just cartoon violence. The source material has long dared to tread ground that wouldn't usually be seen as appropiate for comics. Are games somehow a lesser form of entertainment to try and do the same?


I didn't suggest that we should expect entertainment to shy away from real-world issues, SoK -
jawa wrote:...That's not to say that a game can't reflect real life, nor that it shouldn't; but going into a superhero videogame with the thinking that it should mirror all elements of the real world is probably a case of needing to manage expectations.


Looking at the review text and the real-life police interactions the writer has experienced, maybe he did want to see examples of violence from the police and yells of "suck my dick" from the public? I can't say. It's not something that I, personally, would have expected to see in a Spider-Man game.

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PostRe: Marvel’s Spider-Man: Miles Morales | PS4/PS5 | Christmas 2020
by Saint of Killers » Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:26 pm

jawa wrote:
Saint of Killers wrote:First of all, the reviewer isn't asking for a exact copy of reality; I doubt he wants to see a black man being choked by the police because reasons as he swings by. They want to see the game at least try and show a modicum of reality. Maybe not ACAB, Marvel would never allow that, but maybe at least some cops.

Why shouldn't we expect better from entertainment? If we didn't then where would the diversity be in games right now? And I'm not just talking about diversity of cast, but also of genres. Also, this game has a age rating of 16. There's a lot that could be done with that besides just cartoon violence. The source material has long dared to tread ground that wouldn't usually be seen as appropiate for comics. Are games somehow a lesser form of entertainment to try and do the same?


I didn't suggest that we should expect entertainment to shy away from real-world issues, SoK -
jawa wrote:...That's not to say that a game can't reflect real life, nor that it shouldn't; but going into a superhero videogame with the thinking that it should mirror all elements of the real world is probably a case of needing to manage expectations.


Looking at the review text and the real-life police interactions the writer has experienced, maybe he did want to see examples of violence from the police and yells of "suck my dick" from the public? I can't say. It's not something that I, personally, would have expected to see in a Spider-Man game.


See what I highlighted in my previous post; the reviewer would have been accepting of some criticism of the police in the game.

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PostRe: Marvel’s Spider-Man: Miles Morales | PS4/PS5 | Christmas 2020
by CuriousOyster » Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:29 pm

Think I'll hold off and save this for Christmas, glad its getting good reviews on PS4 as well. Might actually finish the three DLC's from first game before though and tick off more side missions and got bored of the repetitive ones.

I don't know why a reviewer would be expecting a superhero game, particularly a Spider-Man game to reflect reality and todays troubles, not everything has to be a political or sociological commentary because the internet demands it. Sure the comics address these things but the games are a completely different vibe. With something like Watchdogs you would be suprised if they didn't touch upon these issues given the world and atmosphere they create, but I think it wouldn't fit here.

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PostRe: Marvel’s Spider-Man: Miles Morales | PS4/PS5 | Christmas 2020
by jawa » Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:35 pm

Saint of Killers wrote:See what I highlighted in my previous post; the reviewer would have been accepting of some criticism of the police in the game.

I wonder what representation the writer would have accepted? Maybe some police brutality and some civic rioting? I'm unsure as to what would need to be shown that would marry up with the real-life examples he mentioned in the review. I doubt that a Spider-man videogame would venture near to the expectations the writer holds.

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PostRe: Marvel’s Spider-Man: Miles Morales | PS4/PS5 | Christmas 2020
by Saint of Killers » Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:37 pm

Christ :lol:

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PostRe: Marvel’s Spider-Man: Miles Morales | PS4/PS5 | Christmas 2020
by Saint of Killers » Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:45 pm

CuriousOyster wrote:I don't know why a reviewer would be expecting a superhero game, particularly a Spider-Man game to reflect reality and todays troubles, not everything has to be a political or sociological commentary because the internet demands it. Sure the comics address these things but the games are a completely different vibe. With something like Watchdogs you would be suprised if they didn't touch upon these issues given the world and atmosphere they create, but I think it wouldn't fit here.


The game has a age rating of 16. There's plenty of wiggle room in there for it to try *something* to a show little bit of the reality of what police are like.

jawa wrote:
Saint of Killers wrote:See what I highlighted in my previous post; the reviewer would have been accepting of some criticism of the police in the game.

I wonder what representation the writer would have accepted? Maybe some police brutality and some civic rioting? I'm unsure as to what would need to be shown that would marry up with the real-life examples he mentioned in the review. I doubt that a Spider-man videogame would venture near to the expectations the writer holds.


Maybe cops taking backhanders, selling drugs, racist profiling, or setting someone up with planted evidence? You know, an attempt at showing the other side of the coin of policing.

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PostRe: Marvel’s Spider-Man: Miles Morales | PS4/PS5 | Christmas 2020
by jawa » Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:50 pm

Saint of Killers wrote:
jawa wrote:
Saint of Killers wrote:See what I highlighted in my previous post; the reviewer would have been accepting of some criticism of the police in the game.

I wonder what representation the writer would have accepted? Maybe some police brutality and some civic rioting? I'm unsure as to what would need to be shown that would marry up with the real-life examples he mentioned in the review. I doubt that a Spider-man videogame would venture near to the expectations the writer holds.


Maybe cops taking backhanders, selling drugs, racist profiling, or setting someone up with planted evidence? You know, an attempt at showing the other side of the coin of policing.

I could see the idea of the game maybe having a police person who was on the bad side; perhaps framing someone for a crime they didn't commit. That could be a good way of showing how a minority of police operate.

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PostRe: Marvel’s Spider-Man: Miles Morales | PS4/PS5 | Christmas 2020
by Tafdolphin » Sat Nov 07, 2020 2:29 pm

jawa wrote:
Tomous wrote:It is not even nearly the same thing. I didnt say every police man in the NYPD is corrupt. I said the organisation is corrupt. And it demonstrably is, by continuing to cover up and failing to hold officers who break the law to account.

This is calling a spade, a spade. If an organisation keeps doing corrupt things, then it is corrupt.

Do you think Trump has a corrupt government beneath him? Undoubtedly yes. Is every member of his Government a corrupt individual? Probably not, but it is still a corrupt organisation

I don't feel - myself - that the US police force is corrupt. That's not to say that I don't think there are some bad people working for the force that have done some awful things, nor that I don't think they should be held accountable for their actions. But I couldn't look at the overall picture and say that the whole force is corrupt.

I just read through the Vice review of the game. The writer clearly has some strong opinions about the NYPD. I genuinely don't know if the guy is spot-on or not; but, hey, I've never stepped foot into New York and he lives there.

I'm interested by the last few lines of the review as they perhaps summarise the impression that I took away from the text:

...the game cannot reconcile the differences between its New York and the one I see outside my window. That failure would be understandable, but what is unforgivable is that it does not even make the attempt.


It feels like the writer expected the game to offer a replication of his own experiences of New York. I can understand that, but I do wonder if we should be looking at Spider-Man - or even videogames in general - to offer an exact copy of reality. That's not to say that a game can't reflect real life, nor that it shouldn't; but going into a superhero videogame with the thinking that it should mirror all elements of the real world is probably a case of needing to manage expectations.


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PostRe: Marvel’s Spider-Man: Miles Morales | PS4/PS5 | Christmas 2020
by Denster » Sat Nov 07, 2020 2:39 pm

Is J Jonah Jameson a true depiction of an editor in New York? Is he acting in the towns best interests?

I do think a comic book game can have a certain amount of leeway. No doubt the police have come under greater scrutiny and some depiction of this is desirable but in a spider man game? Not sure it needs to be there and also not sure the game should be denigrated because of it. Stick to criticizing the real life NYPD if its warranted. Not their NPC avatars in a game based on super heroes.

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PostRe: Marvel’s Spider-Man: Miles Morales | PS4/PS5 | Christmas 2020
by Tafdolphin » Sat Nov 07, 2020 2:50 pm

The difference is, newspaper editors haven't been rioting for the past year.

The NYPD have.

Newspaper editors haven't a long history of corruption specifically targeted towards racial minorities, including black people like the main character in this game.

The NYPD have.

Comparing a single fictional character, out of context, to an organisation that is both an integral part of NYC's identity whilst also being a driving force behind the city's increasingly violent civil unrest is...dumb. It adds nothing to the conversation.

The point here is not whether we as individual readers agree with the opinions of the reviewer. It's that we agree she is entitled to use her platform to express her views without being accused of being, somehow, wrong simply because of people's narrow idea of what game reviews can and should encompass

EDIT: Obviously I do agree with her, and think it's a great rumination on how videogames, like film and TV before them, should at their highest level seek to be more than purely facile entertainment for entertainment's sake.

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PostRe: Marvel’s Spider-Man: Miles Morales | PS4/PS5 | Christmas 2020
by Denster » Sat Nov 07, 2020 3:17 pm

The point remains - its a comic book game. Theres nothing wrong with the opinion or the reasons behind it. The expectation is the discussion point. I dont expect a comic book game to feature a realistic depiction of nypd. Im sure some people do and others dont. Not every piece of entertainment has to tackle or represent these serious issues.
Of course games should use their power and platform to discuss and highlight these issues but not every game. Surely? Some can just be fun, escapism or blockbusters/popcorn events.

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PostRe: Marvel’s Spider-Man: Miles Morales | PS4/PS5 | Christmas 2020
by Zilnad » Sat Nov 07, 2020 3:21 pm

I'm 100% with Denster on this and will be avoiding the thread from here on in. Spider-Man, as a game, is colourful, fun and feel-good. I'm not playing it for social commentary, I'm playing it to forget about real life and to enjoy a rollercoaster of a super hero fantasy. I'm not averse to politics in games but this is ridiculous. It's Spider-Man.

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PostRe: Marvel’s Spider-Man: Miles Morales | PS4/PS5 | Christmas 2020
by Tafdolphin » Sat Nov 07, 2020 3:25 pm

I think the fact that you've qualified comics as a generally non-political medium says a lot, here.

Zilnad wrote:I'm 100% with Denster on this and will be avoiding the thread from here on in. Spider-Man, as a game, is colourful, fun and feel-good. I'm not playing it for social commentary, I'm playing it to forget about real life and to enjoy a rollercoaster of a super hero fantasy. I'm not averse to politics in games but this is ridiculous. It's Spider-Man.


Are you somehow not able to do this after reading the review?

Let's not get away from what started this: people objecting to a reviewer using a review to express her opinions. No one is directly criticising the game here.

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