Night In The Woods dev accused of sexual assault/rape EDIT: Dies of apparent suicide.

jawafour wrote:The physical assault incidents sound like they should have the involvement of the police. I'm not sure how it works if people make allegations of assault on social media; how do the police gain awareness and would they automatically investigate? I absolutely understand that the victims may be suffering trauma and be uncertain about what to do but, in putting the details on social media rather than contacting the police, there is a risk that an ugly, divided response may be gained instead of the incident gaining the appropriate investigation.

I think this is a natural reaction. I too am unaware of how online accusations work but I assume the accusser would have to report the incident directly to the police in order to start an investigation.

However I also think this reaction is coming from a rational, distanced perspective. Sexual assault and rapes are notoriously difficult to prosecute. This report from April gives the successful conviction rate as 1.7%

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/c ... 85961.html

In the US it's even worse,

Based on Department of Justice and FBI data from 2010-2014, RAINN (Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network) calculates[30] that for every 1,000 rapes, 384 are reported to police, 57 result in an arrest, 11 are referred for prosecution, 7 result in a felony conviction, and 6 result in incarceration

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_t ... ution_rate

That works out at less than 1%.

These specific crimes we're talking about here were committed by people the victims trusted and were reliant on, career wise or generally. All the accusations give reasons for not reporting the crimes, one of which is a general confusion as to whether a crime had even occurred at all. This, the commonly known fact that reporting to the police usually ends in no action and the stated manipulation of the abusers give a credible reason why the victims did not report the crime, now or when they occurred.

Exposing the crimes on twitter, directly to the community the abusers rely on for work, is probably the most appropriate way to expose them these days. It's not perfect, but it has a greater effect than going to the police it seems.

Tafdolphin wrote:I'm not offended. At all. I just think it was a gooseberry fool reply. I mean, you came out and said you didn't think it was sexual assault. No-one was asking you, and the fact this was your first impulse, to interject your own denial, speaks volumes.

I think this second one is gooseberry fool too as you seem to be implying that sexual assault is somehow...better than rape? Less serious, like the former is too far but the latter is almost fair game? And the career stuff is clearly, blatantly added as an addendum. It is Quinn reflecting on her own actions (ie not talking about this sooner) due to what she classifies as a selfish need to earn money.

I hadn’t seen the sexual assault details (although I’ve now seen references to it in the thread) and, since you left it out, your original post was gooseberry fool.

I just thought it was weird the way that she seemed to allude to sexual assault without any detail or merely as a precursor to their breakup. I now see that the detail was somehow omitted (intentionally? by you?).

I don’t think that rape is ‘worse’ than sexual assault and did not mean to make any distinction between the two, beyond that Nathalie’s accusation of rape is clear, while Zoe’s accusation of sexual assault seemed ambiguous because she goes on to mention his being mean and violent during (presumably consensual) sex.

If you’re not offended, than why are you being so hostile? I haven’t denied anything, I made a request for more information. It’s certainly true that nobody asked me for my personal opinion, but I didn’t think that was how this forum worked.

It's not my fault you didn't read the tweet.
Your initial reaction was to claim it wasn't sexual assault, which you were comfortable enough doing without having properly read the source.
You claimed Zoe's sexual assault claim was water muddying which is some kind of reaction let me tell you.
I'm hostile because I hate idiocy.

Tafdolphin wrote:It's not my fault you didn't read the tweet.
Your initial reaction was to claim it wasn't sexual assault, which you were comfortable enough doing without having properly read the source.
You claimed Zoe's sexual assault claim was water muddying which is some kind of reaction let me tell you.
I'm hostile because I hate idiocy.

Winckle wrote:

Tafdolphin wrote:It's not my fault you didn't read the tweet.
Your initial reaction was to claim it wasn't sexual assault, which you were comfortable enough doing without having properly read the source.
You claimed Zoe's sexual assault claim was water muddying which is some kind of reaction let me tell you.
I'm hostile because I hate idiocy.

You going to tell me his reaction was appropriate? Well thought out? Relevant?

EDIT: I do get that it is a cringeworthy way of putting that, elitist and condescending, but that was sort of my intention. A stupid response begets a condescending reply.

Tafdolphin wrote:(Low rates of conviction for rape)... Exposing the crimes on twitter, directly to the community the abusers rely on for work, is probably the most appropriate way to expose them these days. It's not perfect, but it has a greater effect than going to the police it seems.

Indeed, it's a genuine tragedy that so many perpetrators apparently get away with their crimes. I do kinda struggle with the idea that using social media to raise these incidents is a good way of gaining support and resolution; albeit I understand the drive to get people to raise these incidents rather than being too affected or frightened to contact the police.

Using social media for this is fraught, though; how long will it be before the police become aware, could evidence be hidden or altered ahead of the police investigation, and there is a risk that the some of the horrible people around will take advantage by replying with nasty responses. I do feel concerned that someone would feel that the best thing to do is to publish their allegations on social media... but I recognise that this path is increasingly being selected.

My thoughts on this aspect do not alter the fact that the perpetrators should face the law for the disgusting incidents highlighted, of course; just that the police could probably be the first point of call.

jawafour wrote:Using social media for this is fraught, though; how long will it be before the police become aware, could evidence be hidden or altered ahead of the police investigation, and there is a risk that the some of the horrible people around will take advantage by replying with nasty responses. I do feel concerned that someone would feel that the best thing to do is to publish their allegations on social media... but I recognise that this path is increasingly being selected.

As mentioned, there's often very little physical evidence in these cases, especially those from 10+ years ago. Any emails in support of the claim would be from the victim's side, and witness reports would be questionable given the time delay. A unique kink in two of these cases is them taking place in a country where the victims do not hold citizenship (Canada).

I don't think any of these claims are being made entirely rationally, or with any set goal in mind. They are simply women finally relieving themselves of a dark part of their history and trying to make sure the pattern is not repeated.

Tafdolphin wrote:

jawafour wrote:The physical assault incidents sound like they should have the involvement of the police. I'm not sure how it works if people make allegations of assault on social media; how do the police gain awareness and would they automatically investigate? I absolutely understand that the victims may be suffering trauma and be uncertain about what to do but, in putting the details on social media rather than contacting the police, there is a risk that an ugly, divided response may be gained instead of the incident gaining the appropriate investigation.

...Exposing the crimes on twitter, directly to the community the abusers rely on for work, is probably the most appropriate way to expose them these days. It's not perfect, but it has a greater effect than going to the police it seems.

I like to think that I would involve the police immediately, but I can see how other factors would be at play, such as career, worry about being believed, etc. I recall Terry Crews talking about his masculinity and the powerlessness entailed in making accusations of sexual assault against Weinstein.

There have been increasing examples of people outed on social media losing their jobs. Kevin Spacey comes to mind, as well as people caught racially profiling and discriminating.

I’ll say it clearer this time: Zoe is very brave and I hope she can get justice, although I’m not sure how. I suppose just increasing awareness can make it more difficult for predators to operate. Something else that jumped out was Zoe’s mention of all the devs who are aware of toxic behaviour but do nothing - perhaps the first step towards change should be an industry wide adoption of zero tolerance... but is that feasible?

mic wrote: I suppose just increasing awareness can make it more difficult for predators to operate.

I think this is exactly it.

A wee selection of tweets going round:

GR alumna Olivia White:

twitter.com/horrolivia/status/1166354102563024899

Waypoint's Austin Walker and Dia Lacina:

twitter.com/dialacina/status/1166245690621726720

twitter.com/austin_walker/status/1166348230185107456

Moshpit Sim dev Sos Sosowski

twitter.com/Sosowski/status/1166351135722147841

I do genuinely believe that more needs to be done to help persuade victims of sexual assault feel that they can contact the police shortly after the incident actually took place rather than years later when there is little evidence to prove it in a court setting.

No-one should ever be placed in position where they cannot get justice because they were afraid to speak up because they happened to be assaulted by an employer or someone who has influence over their career .

It's hard to get justice in the legal system for sexual assault or abusive relationships. Predators know how to cast (in legal terms) reasonable doubt over what happened. It's difficult to prove a relationship was "really" abusive, that perhaps you appeared happy to your friends but you were in fact too scared to do anything but pretend. Sometimes it's difficult to even admit that to yourself. There will of course be even more doubt if some years have gone by since the crimes took place.

Even if you are raped in an alley and go to the hospital straight afterwards, you will be subjected to invasive questions and made to re-live the rape as the police gather evidence. Conviction rates are low, and you'll have to answer questions like "Why didn't you call for help or fight back?" or "Why were you alone and drunk?". The realities of the cold inquiry of the legal process, the effect that has on your psyche, makes legal justice inaccessible for many victims of sexual abuse.

This isn't even getting into how policing is inherently inaccessible to all sorts of people---particularly the working class, women, queer people, and people of minority ethnicities---who may feel understandable trepidation at the thought of engaging with the justice system at all, which has always been biased towards protecting the interests of the predominantly rich-old-straight-white-and-male ruling class which may well sympathise more with the abuser than the victim. ("What if my rapist can afford better lawyers than me and I'm humiliated in court?")

So-called "trial by social media" isn't a substitute for justice, but realistically it can be better than nothing in cases where legal action just isn't tractable. Alec Holowka probably isn't going to go to prison over the allegation that almost a decade ago he stuck his fingers in Zoe Quinn and walked her around his apartment while she pleaded with him to stop. Of course I think it would be good if she went to the police, but I understand there might well be no evidence that is up to the standards of a legal process.

But I think that kind of thought misses the more immediate point. Plenty of these creeps and abusers aren't particularly subtle, and many of the stories of sexual assault you hear have a part where the predator's friends say, "ah well, that's just what they're like", yet it isn't taken seriously, it isn't spoken about. I feel like the real value in coming forward is in warning other people: "hey, seriously, don't work with so-and-so, don't laugh off what people say about them, they are really a bad person". In that sense it's first and foremost about looking after others (who are perhaps in a vulnerable position) that the abusers might prey on.

Obviously these are absolute horror stories but honestly trial by social media is not a substitute for proper, legal justice. These alleged crimes are very difficult to prove, but I really don't see an alternative unless the standard for prosecution is substantially lowered, and honestly that sounds like things could get a whole lot more messy.

I do feel these a lot of games companies are operating in a very archaic culture where these behaviours are accepted and hidden. They need to really enforce global codes of conduct from the top down, these behaviours need to be discussed locally, allegations must be investigated independently from local managers, and action has to be taken to get rid of the bad apples.

I won't go into details, but I work for a global company that has taken these behaviours extremely seriously. From when I started almost 20 years ago, the culture has been massively changed, we used to have a real problem with horrendous bullying from managers. Thankfully we have had an extremely decent CEO who has really pushed down from the top to ensure that these behaviours are not acceptable, and generally issues are tackled early to ensure they don't develop into even worse behaviours.

How you roll that sort of thing out through small independent companies is anyone's guess. I suppose that's where social media can help, where indie companies are found to let this behaviour slide, the consumer can make the choice by not supporting those developers.

Its an uncomfortable situation all round. Nobody in their right minds wants to see anyone suffer these kinds of abuses, but I'd also urge caution about publicly condemning people without proof of a crime. It is a nasty situation. There isn't really one signal solution, however I will always praise people who bring these behaviours to light, I'm a big believer that shining a light on abuse will force companies to act. I'm just a little reluctant when it comes to naming and shaming where there is no evidence.

I agree with you captain, social media allegations are no substitute for a proper trial.

However I think you're right when you say it can definitely help with awareness. This is about supporting victims, and changing the culture that exists around these issues to prevent them where possible and so that better justice can be served in the future. We cannot condemn someone based on a social media post, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't validate, console and generally support the victim who posts it, and spread awareness to promote change that can make things better in the industry and wider society.

Taf will probably call me a banana split for this or whatever, but I am extremely uncomfortable with immediately accepting an accusation of someone without any kind of evidence and just one person's account of events. As far as I'm aware he hasn't even put out any kind of statement of his own yet. Just saying.

Soule....man. I love his work. Purchased 'The Streets of Whiterun' there recently. That is an amazing piece of music.

more heat than light wrote:Taf will probably call me a banana split for this or whatever, but I am extremely uncomfortable with immediately accepting an accusation of someone without any kind of evidence and just one person's account of events. As far as I'm aware he hasn't even put out any kind of statement of his own yet. Just saying.

I have always struggled with this dichotomy, if that's the word I'm looking for. I consider myself a pretty soft leftie, with most of what comes with that: no sentence without trial, innocent until proven guilty, no social media-shaming, blah blah blah. Yet I know that when this happens, sexual abusers get off scot-free. I know enough women who have been, and who would never have stood a chance of getting a conviction in a proper court. Either they were dating the person (most common) or they were drunk or they weren't old enough to know that this counted as rape (which after all is done to girls who stay out late wearing provocative clothes by strangers in dark allies, lest we 'forget') or all three.

Maybe it's just my second-hand personal experience, but I tend to believe the victim in such cases, which goes against everything you and I have said. Seems like nobody else, including judge and jury, will.

Apart from anything else, it's been a while since they dated, I doubt she'd have made that up, so this is almost certainly a considered act, rather than 'heat-of-the-moment'. So what does Zoe Quinn, already reviled by gamer culture, think she has to gain by saying this? Petty vengeance? I think the backlash will likely come much harder against her for some reason, given that she's already Loathed of Tunbridge Wells and NitW Chap is big and beloved and has a million men (mostly) to spring to his defence in the only courtroom Zoe can get any sort of trial: Twitter.

It does still make me feel uncomfortable though. Men do get falsely accused of assault. There's no perfect answer. I think that believing the victim is the best of two bad ones.


Anyway, this is in the games forum so I'll say that I don't care about any of the three and imagine I should find it easy enough to ignore their work, so long as I'm aware of it which is a bit of a danger with composers. Never got past the end of the first dream sequence in NitW, for all that I liked what it was trying to do.

more heat than light wrote:Taf will probably call me a banana split for this or whatever, but I am extremely uncomfortable with immediately accepting an accusation of someone without any kind of evidence and just one person's account of events. As far as I'm aware he hasn't even put out any kind of statement of his own yet. Just saying.

If you'll pardon the simplification... "Always follow the money". Who gains from these admissions?

The answer is of course strawberry floating no one in the short term, but if we were to rate the people these announcements will have the biggest negative effect on it's the women themselves. They likely face a few weeks, months or years of hell thanks to the rabid community of MRAs, alt-righters and GGers they've riled up.

I would believe these women regardless, but the fact that they are willing to put themselves through this simply to try and make the sure these people are brought to task should be enough for anyone.

Unless they really strawberry floating hated themselves and wanted months of constant abuse and threats, I doubt anyone would make this kind of claim unless they truely believed it.

All the claims are believable to me, you don't get to the top of the food chain by being a really nice stand-up human being.

I would imagine that if you were to get them tested, the majority of CEO's / company leaders would be psychopaths.

Balladeer wrote:Men do get falsely accused of assault. There's no perfect answer. I think that believing the victim is the best of two bad ones.

I like this quote, and you're probably right. It would be easy for us to sit back and tell someone to report things the second they happen, but we have absolutely no idea what the victims are going through.

For what it's worth, I don't disbelieve the lady in question at all. I think I should make that clear. I just feel that it would be easier to assign blame in a more clear cut case.