Night In The Woods dev accused of sexual assault/rape EDIT: Dies of apparent suicide.

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mic
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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev accused of sexual assault/rape EDIT: Dies of apparent suicide.
by mic » Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:37 pm

Karl_ wrote:
mic wrote:@Karl: I think what Jawa means is that it sounded like you were blaming Kerr (and the rest by default) for Taf’s hostility, as though it were our fault for being stupid cowards, when actually Taf chooses to take everything said in the worst possible context and as though said with the worst possible intentions. You’ve done that too in the past, so this wouldn’t be the first time for either and could be taken as... complicit (or more than just Taf vs Jawa).


Sure, OK, but what are you accusing me of here, materially? I'm not a moderator, so I can't do anything about anything Taf has said (if he's broken a forum rule that's between you, him, and the mods). I can consider my own behaviour and perhaps I should as I'm clearly being very rude without realising it. In retrospect, in this thread, can you explain to me how should I have conducted myself to better suit you, Jawa, and so on?


It was really more of an explanation than an accusation. I only highlighted a past experience for context (I’m not after an apology) and you’re certainly not responsible for Taf, so I’m not saying you should have behaved differently here, only that you seemed to be supporting (or at least going along with) Taf’s... abrasiveness (which I feel you and he are entitled to).

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev accused of sexual assault/rape EDIT: Dies of apparent suicide.
by That » Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:44 pm

mic wrote:
Karl_ wrote:
mic wrote:@Karl: I think what Jawa means is that it sounded like you were blaming Kerr (and the rest by default) for Taf’s hostility, as though it were our fault for being stupid cowards, when actually Taf chooses to take everything said in the worst possible context and as though said with the worst possible intentions. You’ve done that too in the past, so this wouldn’t be the first time for either and could be taken as... complicit (or more than just Taf vs Jawa).


Sure, OK, but what are you accusing me of here, materially? I'm not a moderator, so I can't do anything about anything Taf has said (if he's broken a forum rule that's between you, him, and the mods). I can consider my own behaviour and perhaps I should as I'm clearly being very rude without realising it. In retrospect, in this thread, can you explain to me how should I have conducted myself to better suit you, Jawa, and so on?


It was really more of an explanation than an accusation. I only highlighted a past experience for context (I’m not after an apology) and you’re certainly not responsible for Taf, so I’m not saying you should have behaved differently here, only that you seemed to be supporting (or at least going along with) Taf’s... abrasiveness (which I feel you and he are entitled to).


Sure, I see. In that case I'm sorry I came across that way; I don't actually want anyone to be abrasive. As I said (to be fair I realise this was after we started having this conversation!), as a fellow member I would prefer for any pair of people who don't get along to just not interact with each other. But I can't control what anyone else does, so all I can do is engage on my own terms.

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev accused of sexual assault/rape EDIT: Dies of apparent suicide.
by Abacus » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:28 pm

jawafour wrote:I didn't see Tafdolphin's response before he deleted it. It seems that Tafdolphin wants to be able to call names and respond in confrontational ways, and anyone challenging that situation will be waved away. Indeed, he has successfully managed this and subsequently clearly said that he "has reasons" why he can't ignore me.

In terms of how I feel about this situation, I don't think there is going to be a way forward from it.

Goodbye! I will keep in touch with GRcade folk via gaming systems. I guess I'd better not rely on Nintendo too much on this front.


I'm sorry to hear that, as I do enjoy reading your posts. Maybe give it a couple of days and come back? Internet feuds :slol:

FWIW, you weren't the one being rude, aggressive or condescending, though I can see it could be a bit wearing.

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev accused of sexual assault/rape EDIT: Dies of apparent suicide.
by Abacus » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:36 pm

Karl_ wrote:
mic wrote:
Karl_ wrote:
mic wrote:@Karl: I think what Jawa means is that it sounded like you were blaming Kerr (and the rest by default) for Taf’s hostility, as though it were our fault for being stupid cowards, when actually Taf chooses to take everything said in the worst possible context and as though said with the worst possible intentions. You’ve done that too in the past, so this wouldn’t be the first time for either and could be taken as... complicit (or more than just Taf vs Jawa).


Sure, OK, but what are you accusing me of here, materially? I'm not a moderator, so I can't do anything about anything Taf has said (if he's broken a forum rule that's between you, him, and the mods). I can consider my own behaviour and perhaps I should as I'm clearly being very rude without realising it. In retrospect, in this thread, can you explain to me how should I have conducted myself to better suit you, Jawa, and so on?


It was really more of an explanation than an accusation. I only highlighted a past experience for context (I’m not after an apology) and you’re certainly not responsible for Taf, so I’m not saying you should have behaved differently here, only that you seemed to be supporting (or at least going along with) Taf’s... abrasiveness (which I feel you and he are entitled to).


Sure, I see. In that case I'm sorry I came across that way; I don't actually want anyone to be abrasive. As I said (to be fair I realise this was after we started having this conversation!), as a fellow member I would prefer for any pair of people who don't get along to just not interact with each other. But I can't control what anyone else does, so all I can do is engage on my own terms.


Re not trying to be abrasive, didn't you just say that you were being deliberately confrontational to provoke a response from Kerr?

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev accused of sexual assault/rape EDIT: Dies of apparent suicide.
by Abacus » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:40 pm

Snowcannon wrote:The problem is that the rape and sexual assault conviction rates are so low, are victims really getting a 'fair shake of the stick'.

Out of the 98% or so of rape cases that get unconvicted, how many are really likely to be a case of the victim lying? There will be some for sure, but I doubt it's a significant percentage.


I think this is at the heart of it, and it's a terrible statistic, made all the worse by the emotive nature of the crime.

So naturally, the instinct is to lower the evidential bar for prosecutions. But I think that's even more problematic, perhaps exactly because it's so emotive.

Witch hunt is an overused term, but I think the real medieval example is important. An original witch allegation could be made by anyone, and at that point the burden of proof for innocence would fall on the accused. Because, after all, a witch would naturally lie and say they weren't a witch, wouldn't they?

Reasonable logic, leading to conviction, punishment and even the deaths of many women, even though there's clearly no such flipping thing. Rightly, that's now regarded as ludicrous, and the burden of proof of wrongdoing therefore always falls on the prosecution.

Which does unfortunately mean that many criminals are wrongly freed.

But I think that's got to be better than the other way around, no matter how horrible the crime. If you were accused of something, wouldn't you deserve your response? And for your response to be weighted equally, and be judged on the actual facts?

In fact, as point of principle, that's especially important the more horrible the crime is. Otherwise, it's all just outraged mob justice.

And yes, people do lie in accusations, for a whole range of reasons. Leave aside medieval witch hunts - even now, someone has recently gone to jail for making up allegations of paedophillia, torture and murder. He seems to have been a damaged individual and a fantasist, but he destroyed many people's lives as a result and was allowed to do that precisely because he was believed unquestioningly.

Besides, a lot of what has been discussed here isn't rape, or even an actual crime. It's sleazy behaviour but the two really should not be conflated. You might not like how someone behaves, or how you think they've behaved, and fair enough. But it's a different matter altogether.

Regardless, this seems to be trial by internet, which may or may not have caused someone to kill themself. Whatever, anyone publicly accusing someone of something they know nothing about should be ashamed of any part they have played in that.

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked and / or deleted.

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev accused of sexual assault/rape EDIT: Dies of apparent suicide.
by That » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:47 pm

Abacus wrote:Re not trying to be abrasive, didn't you just say that you were being deliberately confrontational to provoke a response from Kerr?

I don't think I did, no. I said I wasn't trying to upset him, but that I was in a sense trying to "confront him" which I meant in the meaning of putting a problem to him in the hopes that he would get to grips with it.

It was supposed to be a bit of a play on words, because I don't think confronting someone (connotates "directly asking someone to deal with a problem") has to be confrontational (connotates "rude, aggressive") and certainly needn't result in a confrontation (connotates "a heated argument").

Do you feel I've been confrontational in the sense of rude & aggressive in this thread? I've only tried to convey what I think in a clear and direct way.

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev accused of sexual assault/rape EDIT: Dies of apparent suicide.
by Abacus » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:54 pm

Karl_ wrote:
Abacus wrote:Re not trying to be abrasive, didn't you just say that you were being deliberately confrontational to provoke a response from Kerr?

I don't think I did, no. I said I wasn't trying to upset him, but that I was in a sense trying to "confront him" which I meant in the meaning of putting a problem to him in the hopes that he would get to grips with it.

It was supposed to be a bit of a play on words, because I don't think confronting someone (connotates "directly asking someone to deal with a problem") has to be confrontational (connotates "rude, aggressive") and certainly needn't result in a confrontation (connotates "a heated argument").

Do you feel I've been confrontational in the sense of rude & aggressive in this thread? I've only tried to convey what I think in a clear and direct way.


Yes, I think you have been actively rude, in insinuating that someone was a coward, for example. Belittling their views.

I don't think it was an attempt at a play on words, either, by the way. You admitted you were trying to provoke a response. You were goading.

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev accused of sexual assault/rape EDIT: Dies of apparent suicide.
by That » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:04 am

Abacus wrote:Besides, a lot of what has been discussed here isn't rape, or even an actual crime. It's sleazy behaviour but the two really should not be conflated. You might not like how someone behaves, or how you think they've behaved, and fair enough. But it's a different matter altogether.

Regardless, this seems to be trial by internet, which may or may not have caused someone to kill themself. Whatever, anyone publicly accusing someone of something they know nothing about should be ashamed of any part they have played in that.

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked and / or deleted.

Some of what has been discussed is probably a crime in theory; in Holowka's case, being abusive or controlling while in a relationship is a crime, as the instance of assault that Quinn mentioned. Some of the other stuff isn't a crime but is widely regarded to be bad behaviour, like ProJared's (very likely) cheating or (admitted) exchange of lewd photos with smitten fans half his age.

But no-one has suggested that a criminal punishment should be applied to these people based on Twitter testimony. What's happened is that a woman has said "I want to talk about an inappropriate experience I had with so-and-so", and then more women have said "Yes, I also experienced that creepy behaviour", the overall point of the conversation being "Fellow women, this guy is liable to not treat you well, be wary". And I don't see an alternative to conversations like that existing, because really it's actually a good thing that if you treat people badly they will talk to others about those experiences and damage your reputation.

I essentially don't think you need to go to a judge to call someone a creep, because it's not a legal ruling.

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev accused of sexual assault/rape EDIT: Dies of apparent suicide.
by That » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:06 am

Abacus wrote:Yes, I think you have been actively rude, in insinuating that someone was a coward, for example. Belittling their views.

I don't think it was an attempt at a play on words, either, by the way. You admitted you were trying to provoke a response. You were goading.

Well, OK; I certainly wasn't trying to goad or provoke Kerr when I said this---
Karl_ wrote:I wasn't trying to upset you, but I suppose I was trying to confront you: your post was difficult to understand because you spoke in vague implications. I just think that's a pretty unhelpful way to phrase your points to be honest.

It takes courage to be direct, to say what you actually mean and accept the risk that people might disagree, but discussions are far more worthwhile if everyone does that. That's all I meant!
---but I suppose your mind is made up and I'm unlikely to convince you otherwise. It can ultimately only be my fault if my tone has been misinterpreted so I will try to be clearer next time.

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev accused of sexual assault/rape EDIT: Dies of apparent suicide.
by Abacus » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:17 am

Karl_ wrote:
Abacus wrote:Besides, a lot of what has been discussed here isn't rape, or even an actual crime. It's sleazy behaviour but the two really should not be conflated. You might not like how someone behaves, or how you think they've behaved, and fair enough. But it's a different matter altogether.

Regardless, this seems to be trial by internet, which may or may not have caused someone to kill themself. Whatever, anyone publicly accusing someone of something they know nothing about should be ashamed of any part they have played in that.

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked and / or deleted.

Some of what has been discussed is probably a crime in theory; in Holowka's case, being abusive or controlling while in a relationship is a crime, as the instance of assault that Quinn mentioned. Some of the other stuff isn't a crime but is widely regarded to be bad behaviour, like ProJared's (very likely) cheating or (admitted) exchange of lewd photos with smitten fans half his age.

But no-one has suggested that a criminal punishment should be applied to these people based on Twitter testimony. What's happened is that a woman has said "I want to talk about an inappropriate experience I had with so-and-so", and then more women have said "Yes, I also experienced that creepy behaviour", the overall point of the conversation being "Fellow women, this guy is liable to not treat you well, be wary". And I don't see an alternative to conversations like that existing, because really it's actually a good thing that if you treat people badly they will talk to others about those experiences and damage your reputation.

I essentially don't think you need to go to a judge to call someone a creep, because it's not a legal ruling.


Right.

But you're OK with destroying someone's reputation and livelihood on here, which could be much more damaging, even though you don't know any of them in person or whether any of it is true.

As it's all just stuff on the internet, someone could easily make make multiple fake accounts to make these kind of allegations. Or it may all be true, here, of course. But I don't know, and nor do you.

The lawless internet judge and jury is a scary place, is what I'm saying.

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev accused of sexual assault/rape EDIT: Dies of apparent suicide.
by Abacus » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:21 am

And no, Karl, stop lying, you also said this.

Karl_ wrote:Who? You won't get a satisfactory response if you're this vague. Don't be a coward, if it's someone here name them, if it's a tweet post it
.


Rude, aggressive, confrontational.

Check.

You should apologise, and not in a mealy mouthed "im sorry you happened to be offended" way.

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev accused of sexual assault/rape EDIT: Dies of apparent suicide.
by That » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:41 am

Abacus wrote:Right.

But you're OK with destroying someone's reputation and livelihood on here, which could be much more damaging, even though you don't know any of them in person or whether any of it is true.

As it's all just stuff on the internet, someone could easily make make multiple fake accounts to make these kind of allegations. Or it may all be true, here, of course. But I don't know, and nor do you.

The lawless internet judge and jury is a scary place, is what I'm saying.

Well, the reason an accusation might carry enough weight to get someone sacked is usually that the women (who aren't fake accounts) are known to have been associates of the man involved, and have plausible, corroborating stories that demonstrate a pattern of inappropriate behaviour in the work-place.

I agree it's an exploitable system, in the sense that a couple of malicious people could hypothetically concoct a plausible story and use it to damage another person's career. But this will always be true about anything that relies on one's social reputation (and often continuing to have a job unavoidably does depend on people being willing to work with you). I suppose I just don't see a way around it, given it offers a useful heuristic most of the time in the vast majority of cases that are true (such as both of the cases discussed in this thread, which were in both cases admitted). The alternative is to deconstruct and diminish the idea of reputation, which I think would do more harm than good and provide a social environment in which it was much easier for "not-quite-criminal" abusers to hide and exploit.

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev accused of sexual assault/rape EDIT: Dies of apparent suicide.
by That » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:44 am

Abacus wrote:And no, Karl, stop lying, you also said this.

Karl_ wrote:Who? You won't get a satisfactory response if you're this vague. Don't be a coward, if it's someone here name them, if it's a tweet post it.

Rude, aggressive, confrontational. Check.

I'm not trying to lie, I've already talked about it in the thread. Again, I know I'm unlikely to convince you as you seem to not want to take my word for it, but as I said in my very next post after Kerr's reply, I really didn't mean that in as confrontational a way as it was read. That is what the follow-up (which I quoted because you referred to it) was about. That's why when he said that I was being insulting and confrontational, I said no, I didn't mean to upset him, I was only trying to confront him with the problem that his posting style was making it difficult for me to engage with him.

I thought given that I explained that when it was raised, and clarified what I meant---and that the tone of the rest of that post and the rest of my interactions with Kerr weren't rude---you might accept it was bad choice of words, rather than me (I guess) flying off the handle for one sentence. But if you aren't willing to accept that explanation then I can't worry about what I can't change. It's my vague understanding from our past interactions that you feel my posts are made in bad faith or something like that(?), and while I genuinely don't really understand why, I don't think I can do much about it. (Certainly if you think I'm some sort of nasty/rude person then that's your prerogative, I can take that information and try to be more clear in future but I can't do any more than that. In any case I definitely can't defend the idea of a kind of subjective social reputation in one post then whinge about being ill-thought-of in the next!)

Abacus wrote:You should apologise, and not in a mealy mouthed "im sorry you happened to be offended" way.

I am actually sorry for the offence and my poor phrasing, but I'm not sorry for the underlying point made, which I don't feel was offensive. I still think Kerr's original post was confusing because he didn't quote or clarify what had upset him; at least it certainly confused me. For me it came across as being angry with someone but not wanting to point fingers, and I find that confusing, I think it's better to be direct if you are angry at someone. If you think that point is inherently offensive then I think we will have to agree to disagree.

If you do something out of clumsiness then it's right to apologise for your clumsiness, but I won't pretend I was being deliberately aggressive to satisfy you because I know I wasn't.

If I wanted to be really aggressive I would have told him to bugger off or called him thick or something. (But I wouldn't do that because I don't hold that sentiment, and as I've said repeatedly, I actually like Kerr. I guess he's not too happy with me right now but I still think he's a nice guy.)

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev accused of sexual assault/rape EDIT: Dies of apparent suicide.
by Skarjo » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:18 am

What's Anita Sarkeesian up to these days?

Karl wrote:Can't believe I got baited into expressing a political stance on hentai

Skarjo's Scary Stories...
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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev accused of sexual assault/rape EDIT: Dies of apparent suicide.
by Tafdolphin » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:34 am

Skarjo wrote:What's Anita Sarkeesian up to these days?



twitter.com/anitasarkeesian/status/1166379510528262145



Thread. As usual don't read the replies if you want to keep your sanity.

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev accused of sexual assault/rape EDIT: Dies of apparent suicide.
by Hexx » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:14 am

Skarjo wrote:What's Anita Sarkeesian up to these days?


Typical Skarjo, always looking for the next woman...

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev accused of sexual assault/rape EDIT: Dies of apparent suicide.
by kerr9000 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:46 am

I have nothing against you Karl so don't worry. I have just decided I'm taking a step back and sticking to the actual game side of things like retro threads etc , I'm only posting this here as I was tipped off you might be upset. I don't want anyone to be upset.

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev accused of sexual assault/rape EDIT: Dies of apparent suicide.
by That » Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:54 am

kerr9000 wrote:I have nothing against you Karl so don't worry. I have just decided I'm taking a step back and sticking to the actual game side of things like retro threads etc , I'm only posting this here as I was tipped off you might be upset. I don't want anyone to be upset.

That's totally fair enough pal & I'm sorry again for the misunderstanding. Thanks for letting me know.

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev accused of sexual assault/rape EDIT: Dies of apparent suicide.
by jawafour » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:31 pm

Twenty-four hours or so have passed and that has been a good time to consider and reflect.

I don't like the way that the conversations went and I especially don't like the subsequent bad feelings that may have risen. It was silly of me to throw a strop but I was so frustrated - and, at the time, maybe even angry - about how things panned out. No-one feels that they were wrong and there's probably no merit in re-opening the wounds.

I see GRcade as my "escape place"; somewhere to visit just to chat and chill out. There are many bad people and events in the news around the world and I can get agitated when they're cropping in a place that, from my perception, is a "chill zone". Even so, I accept that GR is "Games + Stuff" and people are free to, within the rules, make threads and comment on whatever they want. I'm conscious that some folk think "jawa only wants glowing multicolour rainbows" and - whilst that would be pretty cool - I recognise that bad stuff is just a part of life and it is gonna be discussed.

To avoid these kinds of situations, for my part I plan on not posting in many of the (what I personally consider to be, although I recognise others don't, and that's fine) contentious subject threads. I will try to stop myself from even reading them.

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev accused of sexual assault/rape EDIT: Dies of apparent suicide.
by Green Gecko » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:38 pm

Just a note, I've followed this thread and I am thinking about what it means for a topic to be "political" or "serious" and how that does - at large - appear to actually be a case of "stressful" or "contentious". I don't personally appreciate the vague terminology of "politics" but while I do agree the best practice is to be aware of one's own wellbeing and take care deciding which topics to participate in when they will invariably get heated there are maybe some minor things we can do to help identify those kinds of risque topics without banning them, sidelining them or forcing individuals to behave differently than they would and have a right to be if they strongly believe one way or another that their is an onus to try and challenge ideas. I think that a challenging environment for debate and discussion has a place on forums as much as the more relaxed subjects without having an agenda either way which topics are more important and "OK" to argue about.

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