Night In The Woods dev accused of sexual assault/rape EDIT: Dies of apparent suicide.

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev, Skyrim composer, Cultist Sim dev all accused of sexual assault/rape
by jawafour » Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:45 pm

Tafdolphin wrote:I'm checking out of this now. Intolerable jawa has arrived on his Centrist steed and joined Fade's apologist parade.

Nope. Sorry.

Well, there we go. Using silly names and terms purely because some people are questioning a couple of aspects of your viewpoint.

Edit: And that added-on hidden comment? My word. Nobody here is suggesting that "we don't believe women"... this has all come about merely because Fade and myself have said that evidence from all sources should be assessed in a case.

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev, Skyrim composer, Cultist Sim dev all accused of sexual assault/rape
by Tafdolphin » Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:52 pm

Multiple women/industry peeps now coming forward and adding to the accusations against Alexis Kennedy;






As for the man himself, he immediately threatened legal action. strawberry floating horrible.

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev, Skyrim composer, Gears 4 dev all accused of sexual assault/rape
by Mafro » Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:58 pm

Fade wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:
Fade wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:Plz stop

Thought not :fp: :lol:


You don't seem to understand... it matters not one bit what the accused says or the evidence he proposes as he is the accused. He has zero credibility as his sole purpose is to exonerate himself.

I don't understand how this is an alien concept to you.



Okay, well by that logic I could accuse you of sending me a death threat (with no evidence) and you wouldn't be able to provide evidence disproving me because you're the one I accused, is that what you're saying? You are saying any time ANYONE is accused of anything we should assume the person accusing them is telling the truth and the person being a accused is lying? Even when we step back and look at evidence from both sides?

I hope you're never on a strawberry floating Jury, Jesus.

How about you watch his video and form your own opinion? This is like debating about a film with someone who hasn't even seen it :fp:

I was on a jury the other month and I don't think ProJared's "I have screenshots! Now I have proved my innocence, goodbye" would hold up in court.

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev, Skyrim composer, Gears 4 dev all accused of sexual assault/rape
by Fade » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:04 pm

Mafro wrote:
Fade wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:
Fade wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:Plz stop

Thought not :fp: :lol:


You don't seem to understand... it matters not one bit what the accused says or the evidence he proposes as he is the accused. He has zero credibility as his sole purpose is to exonerate himself.

I don't understand how this is an alien concept to you.



Okay, well by that logic I could accuse you of sending me a death threat (with no evidence) and you wouldn't be able to provide evidence disproving me because you're the one I accused, is that what you're saying? You are saying any time ANYONE is accused of anything we should assume the person accusing them is telling the truth and the person being a accused is lying? Even when we step back and look at evidence from both sides?

I hope you're never on a strawberry floating Jury, Jesus.

How about you watch his video and form your own opinion? This is like debating about a film with someone who hasn't even seen it :fp:

I was on a jury the other month and I don't think ProJared's "I have screenshots! Now I have proved my innocence, goodbye" would hold up in court.

Another person who didn't watch the (40 minute) video?

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev, Skyrim composer, Cultist Sim dev all accused of sexual assault/rape
by Knoyleo » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:13 pm

I didn't want to watch projared videos before I knew he solicited naked photos from a minor, so why would I want to watch one now?

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev, Skyrim composer, Cultist Sim dev all accused of sexual assault/rape
by Tafdolphin » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:29 pm

Knoyleo wrote:I didn't want to watch projared videos before I knew he solicited naked photos from a minor, so why would I want to watch one now?


But how can you know the facts if you haven't watched the video?

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev, Skyrim composer, Cultist Sim dev all accused of sexual assault/rape
by Fade » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:38 pm

Knoyleo wrote:I didn't want to watch projared videos before I knew he solicited naked photos from a minor, so why would I want to watch one now?

The whole point of the video is that it provides evidence to prove that's not what he did :fp: :fp: :fp:

You are literally believing the accusations against him without any evidence.
Tafdolphin wrote:
Knoyleo wrote:I didn't want to watch projared videos before I knew he solicited naked photos from a minor, so why would I want to watch one now?


But how can you know the facts if you haven't watched the video?

You actually make me want to blow my own brains out. I'm not even joking.

The way you are approaching this topic is the equivalent of trump saying "Oh well global warming doesn't exist because of course the scientists want it to be true, otherwise they'd be out of a job! No I don't care if they've got charts and graphs that prove what they're saying is true!"

Apparently believing accusations without evidence is just what we're meant to do these days, worse we're meant to continue believing those accusations when the accused disprove them?

*Don't forget guys, Taf definitely sent me an abusive PM ;) don't believe what he says because of course he'd want to defend himself ;) even if he posts a screenshot of his inbox it's definitely been photoshopped ;) I have no evidence but you should believe me because I'm the accuser, don't worry about that silly evidence thing ;)

*Sarcasm

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev, Skyrim composer, Cultist Sim dev all accused of sexual assault/rape
by Snowcannon » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:58 pm

The way you are approaching it is believing a research paper funded by an oil company showing ‘evidence’ that global warming is a myth

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev, Skyrim composer, Cultist Sim dev all accused of sexual assault/rape
by Karl_ » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:05 pm

Okay Fade. I am going to watch your video. On double speed so it only makes my life unbearable for 20 minutes.

Watch this space.

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev, Skyrim composer, Cultist Sim dev all accused of sexual assault/rape
by Karl_ » Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:12 am

Okay, I steeled myself and watched it.

He doesn't really provide any evidence for his claims. Specifically, in order of appearance:
  • He asserts that he couldn't address the accusations until now for legal reasons, but he issued several statements at the time (they are actually mentioned later in the video).
  • He claims victimhood due to harassment, but subjectively it seems to me that his ex-wife and accusers came off much worse. Later in the video he compares being meme'd on to being beaten in the street, which is hilarious and a little window into a delusion.
  • He admits exchanging nudes with fans. This is inherently problematic. A mid-30s celebrity shouldn't exchange sexual favours with teenage fans who are parasocially in love with him, even if they are all 18. Later, he demonstrates an understanding of parasocial relationships by asserting it is unhealthy that Charlie (who accused him of abuse) is parasocially in love with the cast of Game Grumps, which shows he understands the problem but refuses to apply that to himself.
  • The rhetoric about a "safe space" is pretty horrifying. Sexually-abusive parasocial relationships are not "sex-positive".
  • When he mentions his ex-wife, he pushes the idea that she consented to polyamory and an open relationship, but cheating can still happen in an open relationship. Your partner really needs to be enthusiastically on board with your other partners. His ex-wife contends she was not, in fact, on board in this way.
  • He says he never offered anything in return for nudes, but this is a bare assertion with no evidence. It may well be true (but might not be, there's no evidence!), but the assertion was made for a reason: to muddy what counts as sexual abuse (it's only abusive if it's prostitution?).
  • He says "I admit there was a power imbalance" and "I'm sorry", but follows up with "I feel what I was doing was not predatory", which shows he has really failed to grapple with or learn from the experience, and makes the apology empty.
  • A crucial claim is that the "main grievance" with him was the involvement of minors, but this was not really the case as far as I recall. I don't usually follow YouTuber drama, but I remember this one because Hbomberguy talked about it. People were angry with a mix of things: his infidelity, his abuse of celebrity status, and the involvement of minors, probably in equal measure.
  • The teens who accused him deleted their tweets, but that doesn't actually have any impact on the truth value of those tweets. I think it's more likely that they deleted them because they were harassed; one of their accounts is currently closed-off with a message alluding to death threats.
  • He spends around five minutes of the video dissecting a mentally disabled trans boy's diary for evidence of unreliability. As well as being gross, it's fallacious. He cherry-picks the bits that make him sound dangerous, while leaving out key details that speak to his competence (like that, despite difficulties, he did study for and complete his GCSEs at the time).
  • Repeatedly throughout the video, he claims "I just can't remember this! It doesn't seem like something I'd do!" which clearly shouldn't be taken at face value. It's not evidence, it's just rhetoric.
  • It's funny he says he was a victim of the poisoning-the-well fallacy when his video is titled "YOU'VE BEEN LIED TO".
  • I think he misrepresents Charlie's complaint, which was never that Jared knew he was soliciting nudes from a minor, just that he created an environment where that was inevitable and didn't seem to care. Even if no minor is ever involved, it is neglectful for someone who mostly makes teen-oriented content for a teen fanbase to have a "fans, please DM me nudes" policy.
  • "I can't be a predator because they texted first a bunch of times!" is a huge non-sequitur.
  • He says that he apologised for things he didn't do because of peer pressure and "believing those lies myself", which doesn't really make sense. He also moans that the teens called his apology manipulative, but also recanted it and says he wasn't sorry, which I guess does make it a manipulative apology in retrospect. This isn't a huge own as we already knew from earlier that his apologies are insincere, but it is kind of amusing to see him tell on himself.
  • There is the assertion that the teens are just in it for attention, but I don't really see it. The bit about not being able to trust folks who ask for money online is hilariously hypocritical coming from a professional YouTuber. The bit about them liking porn and therefore being deviants (or whatever) is also highly entertaining coming from someone who had a "DM me nudes" Tumblr account. There is a lot of projection in this section.
  • The model accused him of looking up her nudes and showing his friends, and he can't even get all his friends to agree it didn't happen! 3/4 indeed. How convincing. Anyway, he says he "only" looked up her Instagram because he was "excited" to "look at cosplay", so that's alright then.
  • "I don't remember being rude to this woman. It might have happened at this panel I was at. BUT I WASN'T AT THAT PANEL! Checkmate." I don't understand how anyone could find this convincing. He just made up a story that didn't happen, so he could say it didn't happen. It's comically bad, Gob-esque "misdirection".
  • There are a lot of points in this video where he says things like "I'm a nice person. I'm not saying they lied! Maybe they're just stupid." It's rude if you dig below the veneer, but this is rhetoric to make him appear reasonable and sympathetic. While having that thought, I realised that even the way he's groomed and dressed is supposed to make him seem 'down on his luck'.
  • "They were beating me down! Tweeting memes, clown emojis, jokes..." Hahaha. "It's bullying. [performative YouTube sad face] ...Imagine if you saw someone getting beaten by a gang. NOT SO FUNNY NOW IS IT?" Oh my God, lmao.
  • After alluding to it previously, we get: "I have evidence I wasn't cheating on my ex-wife!" [blurred out screenshots, no actual evidence provided] Again, this isn't evidence, it's rhetoric, and she clearly disagrees.

I more-or-less believe that he asked the "You 18+?" question when in doubt. I don't think he knowingly solicited pictures from children, I think he understood and was afraid of what a shitstorm that would cause for him.

I don't think that exonerates him. I think he's probably a dickhead who cheated on his wife, and I think he's definitely a creep who encouraged and exploited emotionally manipulative parasocial relationships with smitten fans who were barely adults for sexual thrills, which is really just disgraceful behaviour.

He might not have committed any crimes but that's a very low bar to stan someone. He's still an asshole, and his video doesn't refute that, it's just an attempt at PR and damage control.

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev, Skyrim composer, Cultist Sim dev all accused of sexual assault/rape
by Green Gecko » Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:28 am

Fade, I haven't watched or participated in this thread whatsoever (but have read some articles reporting on it), but I'd still like to say that a video on the internet doesn't prove a damn thing.

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev, Skyrim composer, Cultist Sim dev all accused of sexual assault/rape
by Dig Dug » Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:34 am

Karl once again being the mod we don’t deserve.

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev, Skyrim composer, Cultist Sim dev all accused of sexual assault/rape
by Green Gecko » Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:44 am

I do think it's important to recognise the overwhelming voice of people who play games, who appear to defend industry figures accused of sexual misconduct literally within seconds of it being posted online, and normally directly in response to the individual making those accusations. That is what I observed on the Twitter chain and struck me as kind of odd. And yeah, you could pretty much see the dudes seething through the screen.

So it's extremely unlikely anyone will need to seriously fill that role ad nauseam. It's done. Anyway, there's courts for that. I guess what I'm saying is, don't go out of your way to benefit the accused as it's sort of, well, strawberry floating pointless. It's relatively likely they have done shitty things with this many people coming out and speaking about it and yes that is a small part of how society serves justice because a court doesn't magically manifest at the very moment of contention. It isn't a good gamer's job to stick their neck out for beardy indie gaming I spent so long in my bedroom coding games and desperately wanting money for girls/ramen types just cos, y'know, in case they're not a banana split. At least that's my opinion.

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev, Skyrim composer, Cultist Sim dev all accused of sexual assault/rape
by Tafdolphin » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:15 am

Thanks guys. Thought I was going crazy for a second there.

Fade, I don't know what connection you have with this ProJared but Snowcannon nailed the analogy

Snowcannon wrote:The way you are approaching it is believing a research paper funded by an oil company showing ‘evidence’ that global warming is a myth


You didn't enter the thread suggesting we consider his evidence, you entered stating 'hopefully this sort of jumping to conclusion doesn't happen again.' From the start you claimed or implied the accused's video exonerated the accused himself. That it proved his innocence.

From what's been discussed in here I truly hope you can see why that's not the case, at all, can reconsider your own biases and maybe consider the facts more critically the next time this occurs. Because it will.

Last edited by Tafdolphin on Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:45 am, edited 6 times in total.
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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev, Skyrim composer, Cultist Sim dev all accused of sexual assault/rape
by Knoyleo » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:21 am

Karlsus. He gave his 40 minutes so we didn't have to.

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev, Skyrim composer, Cultist Sim dev all accused of sexual assault/rape
by Moggy » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:29 am

Knoyleo wrote:Karlsus. He gave his 40 minutes so we didn't have to.


He put it on double speed and so he owes us another 20 minutes.

I suggest he used that 20 minutes to evaluate Gary Glitter music videos. Maybe Glitter left evidence in “Do you want to be in my gang” that would show he is innocent?

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev, Skyrim composer, Gears 4 dev all accused of sexual assault/rape
by Corazon de Leon » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:30 am

Fade wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:
Fade wrote:Anyone watched ProJared's newest video?

I hope people learn from that and don't jump to conclusions again.


Because he said he didn't do it?

https://heavy.com/news/2019/08/projared-defense-video/

TL;dr Youtuber cheats on his wife with fan. Wife alleges he also shared nude photos with underage fans. Multiple, multiple fans confirm this.

4 months later, Youtuber posts an "I did nothing wrong." video while admitting he did swap nudes with fans in an 'unhealthy' manner but it wasn't predatory because, you know, he doesn't think it was.

Seems to me the conclusions that were jumped to were... Correct?!

EDIT: Just read some of his evidence. It's like something a kid would present as exculpatory.

Did you watch the video? Both of his 'victims' very clearly lied about what happened.

Yeah having a Tumblr where people send you nudes is seedy, but there are cases where famous people have pursued and groomed people. That didn't happen in this case, he stopped talking to one of the 'victims' a number of times and she always began messaging him again. He did not pursue or groom either of these people.

While I agree there is a huge power differential it swings both ways. Him sending nudes to people can be way more damaging to him then some nobody sending them to him.

If someone decides to send you nudes, the mere fact you are famous doesn't immediately make it predatory, you have to look at the context.


Just a quick point, but the above bolded part doesn't necessarily mean that the person wasn't groomed. In fact, starving someone of attention to them push them into messaging you unprompted is pretty much textbook grooming.

FWIW I don't know who ProJared is and don't care to find out, but thought I should point that out.

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev, Skyrim composer, Cultist Sim dev all accused of sexual assault/rape
by jawafour » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:19 am

Green Gecko wrote:Fade, I haven't watched or participated in this thread whatsoever (but have read some articles reporting on it), but I'd still like to say that a video on the internet doesn't prove a damn thing.

Gecko, man... this makes no sense at all. It has no logic; that video evidence inherently can't be valid? That it doesn't contain truth because it's on the internet? Sure, I'm not suggesting that it *is* the truth; merely that it's a form of evidence that is valid as the accusers words released on Twitter.

Tafdolphin wrote:Thanks guys. Thought I was going crazy for a second there...

This, in my view, is an ugly post; seeking to take the high moral ground after thinking that comments from mods / staff have validated your earlier words and confirmed that others are 'wrong"... and attempting to be condescending whilst doing so. As for reconsiderng biases and taking a more critical approach, this seems the height of hypocrisy - your whole point has been that evidence should only be accepted from certain sources and that the words of some people should be dismissed.

The video is not, as Karl phrased it, "Fade's video" ("your video"); it is Projared's point of view. From Fade's perspective, he felt it presented another side to the accusations and that feels pretty reasonable. Whether it does or doesn't contain anything to change a viewpoint is really down to personal perception and, sure, there is nothing wrong in challenging that either way. But it is another side to the incident and looking at it and considering it doesn't stand as an example of (ugh) "not believing women".

I am seriously wary of claims being made or character assassinations attempted (which has already happened in this thread) and so in case I'm represented in a "jawa backs up people who assault" fashion, I'll repeat here what I've said earlier: people should be unafraid, encouraged and supported to raise these horrible incidents; perpetrators should face the law; such cases are appalling; and it's a good thing thing that we strive to create a no-tolerance environment for such incidents. But, in partnership with that, I feel that a standard approach of gathering and reviewing all evidence is important.

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev, Skyrim composer, Cultist Sim dev all accused of sexual assault/rape
by Tafdolphin » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:42 am

jawafour wrote:
Green Gecko wrote:Fade, I haven't watched or participated in this thread whatsoever (but have read some articles reporting on it), but I'd still like to say that a video on the internet doesn't prove a damn thing.

Gecko, man... this makes no sense at all. It has no logic; that video evidence inherently can't be valid? That it doesn't contain truth because it's on the internet? Sure, I'm not suggesting that it *is* the truth; merely that it's a form of evidence that is valid as the accusers words released on Twitter.

Tafdolphin wrote:Thanks guys. Thought I was going crazy for a second there...

This, in my view, is an ugly post; seeking to take the high moral ground after thinking that comments from mods / staff have validated your earlier words and confirmed that others are 'wrong"... and attempting to be condescending whilst doing so. As for reconsiderng biases and taking a more critical approach, this seems the height of hypocrisy - your whole point has been that evidence should only be accepted from certain sources and that the words of some people should be dismissed.

The video is not, as Karl phrased it, "Fade's video" ("your video"); it is Projared's point of view. From Fade's perspective, he felt it presented another side to the accusations and that feels pretty reasonable. Whether it does or doesn't contain anything to change a viewpoint is really down to personal perception and, sure, there is nothing wrong in challenging that either way. But it is another side to the incident and looking at it and considering it doesn't stand as an example of (ugh) "not believing women".

I am seriously wary of claims being made or character assassinations attempted (which has already happened in this thread) and so in case I'm represented in a "jawa backs up people who assault" fashion, I'll repeat here what I've said earlier: people should be unafraid, encouraged and supported to raise these horrible incidents; perpetrators should face the law; such cases are appalling; and it's a good thing thing that we strive to create a no-tolerance environment for such incidents. But, in partnership with that, I feel that a standard approach of gathering and reviewing all evidence is important.


You've missed the point again here, jawa. The reason Gecko dismissed the video, the reason I dismissed the video, the reason Karl watched then dismissed the video and the reason I felt like I owed those folks credit for convincing me I wasn't insane has nothing to do with the fair consideration of evidence from both sides. It is that a video from the accuser contains no inherent worth if its only purpose is to exonerate the creator.

Evidence and claims submitted from the victims in this case are inherently more believable and carry more weight, in part, as they are actively disadvantageous to those making the claim. The evidence submitted by the accused is actively advantageous to the person presenting it and is therefore hugely biased. Considering it at face value is a grave misunderstanding of the situation.

I genuinely don't know how it can be made clearer that comparing the evidence of the accused and the accuser on equal terms is an exercise in false balance.

You aren't sitting on the fence here. You're acting as an apologist, despite your claims to the contrary.

EDIT: Would love to get your views on Karl's post jawa. Given his meticulous break down of the video, and how it largely amounts to nothing, I'm wondering why you're still desperate we consider it?

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PostRe: Night In The Woods dev, Skyrim composer, Cultist Sim dev all accused of sexual assault/rape
by OrangeRKN » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:38 am

Why do people even care about the projared drama, he's not your friend and regardless of whether he broke the law he sounds like a right dodgy dave. Just stop following him, there are literally thousands of youtubers out there doing the same thing you can watch instead.

I think this is just another case demonstrating the increased impact and dangers of parasocial relationships in the modern world, and I think that's something the education system (or similar) needs to make a real effort in educating children about - the people primarily buying into and being negatively affected by these kinds of relationships.

My less sympathetic response being "get off youtube/social media and make some real friends" but I'm just an old man who posts on bulletin boards and doesn't "get" youtube.

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