Suspension of democracy ruled unlawful by Supreme Court | Parliament NOT prorogued | Election November?

Karl_ wrote:You are right though, if I had my way we wouldn't have a state or politicians at all, but I start getting funny looks and called "extreme" when I say that, so I try to keep it inside.

Well, like....it's kinda more pertinent to the UK's politics and Westminster. We had years of morally bankrupt TD's (your MP's) and Taoiseach's pretty much up until the crash (Bertie Ahern should be in Prison). Slowly but surely the Irish Government is remembering that they work for us, there's always a few outliers but these are getting fewer and fewer as the old guard retire and the younger TD's take office. We also have an overwhelmingly left leaning government with not one far right TD holding a seat which means, on the whole, at least over here, I'm pretty ok with our Government.

Lotus wrote:It's great trying to follow this topic across 3 different threads.

And another election. I think people are so sick and tired of everything to do with Brexit, elections, and politics in general, that turn out could be really low for this.

People keep saying that they are sick of Brexit and just want it to be over.

I don’t think they realise that this is going to go on for decades no matter what happens.

If there’s a referendum and we Remain, then Farage and co will be campaigning to overturn it for decades. That’s not actually a criticism of Leavers “not accepting the result” either – they are free to campaign imo, just an observation that this doesn’t end.

If we Leave with a deal then Farage and co plus Remainers will still be campaigning. Farage will want us to tear up the agreement, Remainers will want us to rejoin the EU. Plus on top of that we will have significant economic harm to deal with as well as desperate attempts to secure trade deals.

If we Leave with no deal then it does shut Farage up. But Remainers will be campaigning to rejoin, we will be suffering MASSIVE economic harm and the government will be desperately searching for trade deals. Plus violence in Northern Ireland, Scottish independence happening or the campaign for it ramping up.

The only way this can be over in the next few decades is a referendum where one side wins a huge majority (65%+). And that isn’t going to happen.

Mommy wrote:We (the people) voted to leave the European Union. Our elected representatives refused to carry out the will of the people.
Democracy went a long time ago.

None of that is true.

Our elected representatives triggered Article 50 and the government negotiated a withdrawal agreement. Elected representatives (from both sides of the argument) then rejected that withdrawal agreement because they didn’t think it was a good thing for the country.

The idea that Parliament has ignored “the will of the people” is insane.

Photek wrote:

Karl_ wrote:You are right though, if I had my way we wouldn't have a state or politicians at all, but I start getting funny looks and called "extreme" when I say that, so I try to keep it inside.

Well, like....it's kinda more pertinent to the UK's politics and Westminster. We had years of morally bankrupt TD's (your MP's) and Taoiseach's pretty much up until the crash (Bertie Ahern should be in Prison). Slowly but surely the Irish Government is remembering that they work for us, there's always a few outliers but these are getting fewer and fewer as the old guard retire and the younger TD's take office. We also have an overwhelmingly left leaning government with not one far right TD holding a seat which means, on the whole, at least over here, I'm pretty ok with our Government.

It's great that Ireland is doing so well at the moment. It seems that over the last decade you've really transformed your country, I think that's fantastic. When you had the gay marriage referendum in 2015 followed by the abortion one last year I was so pleased for you all; the abortion one in particular makes Northern Ireland look very backwards.

I have philosophical objections to how we tend to put our societies together, to do with capitalism and centralised power and so on, but I would much rather live under the Irish government than the British one.

Moggy wrote:The only way this can be over in the next few decades is a referendum where one side wins a huge majority (65%+). And that isn’t going to happen.

Hopefully in a couple of decades most of the old people who voted to leave will have crawled into their graves. Everyone else will likely be suffering economically so will be tempted to vote us back into the EU in the hope of getting more work opportunities/benefits from Europe.

Mommy wrote:We (the people) voted to leave the European Union. Our elected representatives refused to carry out the will of the people.
Democracy went a long time ago.

Who should be to blame if exiting the EU causes widespread economic difficulties that affects jobs, the NHS, and the availability of produce?

Moggy wrote:

Mommy wrote:We (the people) voted to leave the European Union. Our elected representatives refused to carry out the will of the people.
Democracy went a long time ago.

None of that is true.

Our elected representatives triggered Article 50 and the government negotiated a withdrawal agreement. Elected representatives (from both sides of the argument) then rejected that withdrawal agreement because they didn’t think it was a good thing for the country.

The idea that Parliament has ignored “the will of the people” is insane.

But we trusted the goverment to negotiate the deal. Then the deal should be accepted, no?

Mommy wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Mommy wrote:We (the people) voted to leave the European Union. Our elected representatives refused to carry out the will of the people.
Democracy went a long time ago.

None of that is true.

Our elected representatives triggered Article 50 and the government negotiated a withdrawal agreement. Elected representatives (from both sides of the argument) then rejected that withdrawal agreement because they didn’t think it was a good thing for the country.

The idea that Parliament has ignored “the will of the people” is insane.

But we trusted the goverment to negotiate the deal. Then the deal should be accepted, no?

Why should it? We don't live in a dictatorship where May or Johnson get to decide everything, Parliament decides what does and doesn't happen.

The deal was awful whether you were Leave or Remain. MPs were right to reject it.

Mommy wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Mommy wrote:We (the people) voted to leave the European Union. Our elected representatives refused to carry out the will of the people.
Democracy went a long time ago.

None of that is true.

Our elected representatives triggered Article 50 and the government negotiated a withdrawal agreement. Elected representatives (from both sides of the argument) then rejected that withdrawal agreement because they didn’t think it was a good thing for the country.

The idea that Parliament has ignored “the will of the people” is insane.

But we trusted the goverment to negotiate the deal. Then the deal should be accepted, no?

Not when the deal looks completely different to what was promised during the Leave campaign in 2016.

There's absolutely no reason not to ask the public again now we know what brexit looks like.

Mommy wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Mommy wrote:We (the people) voted to leave the European Union. Our elected representatives refused to carry out the will of the people.
Democracy went a long time ago.

None of that is true.

Our elected representatives triggered Article 50 and the government negotiated a withdrawal agreement. Elected representatives (from both sides of the argument) then rejected that withdrawal agreement because they didn’t think it was a good thing for the country.

The idea that Parliament has ignored “the will of the people” is insane.

But we trusted the goverment to negotiate the deal. Then the deal should be accepted, no?

Forcing all MPs to accept the government's proposals isn't democratic...

Tomous wrote:

Mommy wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Mommy wrote:We (the people) voted to leave the European Union. Our elected representatives refused to carry out the will of the people.
Democracy went a long time ago.

None of that is true.

Our elected representatives triggered Article 50 and the government negotiated a withdrawal agreement. Elected representatives (from both sides of the argument) then rejected that withdrawal agreement because they didn’t think it was a good thing for the country.

The idea that Parliament has ignored “the will of the people” is insane.

But we trusted the goverment to negotiate the deal. Then the deal should be accepted, no?

Not when the deal looks completely different to what was promised during the Leave campaign in 2016.

There's absolutely no reason not to ask the public again now we know what brexit looks like.

And what do we do after a second referendum? Best of 3?

Mommy wrote:

Tomous wrote:

Mommy wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Mommy wrote:We (the people) voted to leave the European Union. Our elected representatives refused to carry out the will of the people.
Democracy went a long time ago.

None of that is true.

Our elected representatives triggered Article 50 and the government negotiated a withdrawal agreement. Elected representatives (from both sides of the argument) then rejected that withdrawal agreement because they didn’t think it was a good thing for the country.

The idea that Parliament has ignored “the will of the people” is insane.

But we trusted the goverment to negotiate the deal. Then the deal should be accepted, no?

Not when the deal looks completely different to what was promised during the Leave campaign in 2016.

There's absolutely no reason not to ask the public again now we know what brexit looks like.

And what do we do after a second referendum? Best of 3?

No. Go with whatever the answer is.

I think it should be two questions:

A) Do you still want to leave the EU? Yes/No

B) If the country chooses to leave the EU do you prefer Deal or No Deal? Deal/No Deal

If A is No, revoke Article 50. If A) is Yes, leave on whatever terms wins in B).

Tomous wrote:

Mommy wrote:

Tomous wrote:

Mommy wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Mommy wrote:We (the people) voted to leave the European Union. Our elected representatives refused to carry out the will of the people.
Democracy went a long time ago.

None of that is true.

Our elected representatives triggered Article 50 and the government negotiated a withdrawal agreement. Elected representatives (from both sides of the argument) then rejected that withdrawal agreement because they didn’t think it was a good thing for the country.

The idea that Parliament has ignored “the will of the people” is insane.

But we trusted the goverment to negotiate the deal. Then the deal should be accepted, no?

Not when the deal looks completely different to what was promised during the Leave campaign in 2016.

There's absolutely no reason not to ask the public again now we know what brexit looks like.

And what do we do after a second referendum? Best of 3?

No. Go with whatever the answer is.

I think it should be two questions:

A) Do you still want to leave the EU? Yes/No

B) If the country chooses to leave the EU do you prefer Deal or No Deal? Deal/No Deal

If A is No, revoke Article 50. If A) is Yes, leave on whatever terms wins in B).

A point to consider is the difference between advisory and binding referenda. A referendum can be made binding as long as there is a concrete policy proposal to vote on. If it were e.g. Remain vs. Theresa May's Deal, we could have a binding referendum so that the relevant legislation is passed automatically.

It feels like "running it again" at first glance but a binding referendum is totally different to an advisory referendum. Arguably they should actually come in pairs. An advisory referendum to work out if there's an appetite for an idea, then a binding referendum to make sure people want the implementation. That's what arch-Leaver Rees-Mogg thought before it became convenient to drop that belief, anyway.

Mommy wrote:

Tomous wrote:

Mommy wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Mommy wrote:We (the people) voted to leave the European Union. Our elected representatives refused to carry out the will of the people.
Democracy went a long time ago.

None of that is true.

Our elected representatives triggered Article 50 and the government negotiated a withdrawal agreement. Elected representatives (from both sides of the argument) then rejected that withdrawal agreement because they didn’t think it was a good thing for the country.

The idea that Parliament has ignored “the will of the people” is insane.

But we trusted the goverment to negotiate the deal. Then the deal should be accepted, no?

Not when the deal looks completely different to what was promised during the Leave campaign in 2016.

There's absolutely no reason not to ask the public again now we know what brexit looks like.

And what do we do after a second referendum? Best of 3?

It would actually be best of three. We voted Remain in the 70s, voted Leave in 2016 and so it’s currently 1-1.

Mommy wrote:We (the people) voted to leave the European Union. Our elected representatives refused to carry out the will of the people.
Democracy went a long time ago.

After the referendum the country voted again for its representatives. Those representing a majority of remain voters are quite right to continue to support remain as an option. Those representing a majority of leave voters are divided over what sort of deal the UK should have with the EU on leaving. Parliament has been unable to reach a majority agreement, and that probably accurately reflects the opinions of the populace given the very slim majority for leave as a whole in the referendum. Remain vs Leave is a false dichotomy. The succession of crises facing the country over brexit is in large part due to the timeline enforced by Theresa May when she invoked article 50, a completely unnecessary move that, coupled with the government's inability and refusal to seek compromise, has led to where we are now.

At no point have any representatives refused to carry out the will of the people. Brexit has preoccupied those representatives since 2016.

The proroguement of parliament by an unelected Prime Minister is far and away the greatest challenge to British democracy I have lived through, and everyone should be up in arms over it regardless of their stance on Brexit.

The deal was awful but from day one there's been a clear attempt to prevent us leaving the EU by pro remain MP's and institutes. They have at every turn done whatever they can to put roadblocks in front of the possibility of getting any form of sensible deal.

The EU have played for time and applied the appropriate pressure to aid the remainers. You don't send your negotiators in with their hands tied behind their back. Nobody wants no deal but you don't take the option away. It's a terrible negotiation strategy.

A lot of remainers have labelled leavers in fantastical ways. Making sweeping statements declaring us fascists, racists and deluded which for me I thought as a nation we were above in the main.

I doubt if we had another referendum and the result was the same it would end the remainers revolting at every turn.

PurplePenguin wrote:The deal was awful but from day one there's been a clear attempt to prevent us leaving the EU by pro remain MP's and institutes. They have at every turn done whatever they can to put roadblocks in front of the possibility of getting any form of sensible deal.

The EU have played for time and applied the appropriate pressure to aid the remainers. You don't send your negotiators in with their hands tied behind their back. Nobody wants no deal but you don't take the option away. It's a terrible negotiation strategy.

A lot of remainers have labelled leavers in fantastical ways. Making sweeping statements declaring us fascists, racists and deluded which for me I thought as a nation we were above in the main.

I doubt if we had another referendum and the result was the same it would end the remainers revolting at every turn.

You're so deep in denial your ears are wet

PurplePenguin wrote:The deal was awful but from day one there's been a clear attempt to prevent us leaving the EU by pro remain MP's and institutes. They have at every turn done whatever they can to put roadblocks in front of the possibility of getting any form of sensible deal.

The EU have played for time and applied the appropriate pressure to aid the remainers. You don't send your negotiators in with their hands tied behind their back. Nobody wants no deal but you don't take the option away. It's a terrible negotiation strategy.

A lot of remainers have labelled leavers in fantastical ways. Making sweeping statements declaring us fascists, racists and deluded which for me I thought as a nation we were above in the main.

I doubt if we had another referendum and the result was the same it would end the remainers revolting at every turn.

Total load of shite.

PurplePenguin wrote:A lot of remainers have labelled leavers in fantastical ways. Making sweeping statements declaring us fascists, racists and deluded which for me I thought as a nation we were above in the main.

I think we can all agree that racism, nationalism and fascism are bad, yes?

Not all Leave voters are racist, but all racists voted Leave.
Not all Leave voters are nationalists, but all nationalists voted Leave.
Not all Leave voters are fascist, but all fascists voted Leave.

It's as if voting Leave appeals to a certain type of person...