Suspension of democracy ruled unlawful by Supreme Court | Parliament NOT prorogued | Election November?

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OrangeRKN
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by OrangeRKN » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:06 pm

The deal was awful but from day one there's been a clear attempt to crash us out with no deal by the extreme minority of anti-EU MP's and institutes. They have at every turn done what they can to put roadblocks in front of the possibility of getting any form of sensible deal.

The government have played for time and applied the appropriate pressure to aid the leavers. You don't send your negotiators in with their hands tied by an impending time limit. Nobody wants no deal so you don't make it the default option. It's a terrible negotiation strategy.

A lot of leavers have labelled remainers in fantastical ways. Making sweeping statements declaring us anti-democratic and deluded which for me I thought as a nation we were above in the main.

I doubt if we had another referendum and the result was different it would end the leavers revolting at every turn.

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Garth
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Garth » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:06 pm

The UK threatening no deal was always a crap negotiation tactic, if we went through with it would hurt us more than it would hurt the EU and we'd be immediately limping back to the negotiating table hoping for a deal again.

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PurplePenguin
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by PurplePenguin » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:07 pm

That's nonsense Preezy but a prime example of the shite coming from a remoaner.

Last edited by Green Gecko on Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cuttooth
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Cuttooth » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:09 pm

What's a sensible deal in your eyes and in what ways have remainers stopped the possibility of it being agreed?

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Moggy
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Moggy » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:09 pm

PurplePenguin wrote:The deal was awful but from day one there's been a clear attempt to prevent us leaving the EU by pro remain MP's and institutes. They have at every turn done whatever they can to put roadblocks in front of the possibility of getting any form of sensible deal.

The EU have played for time and applied the appropriate pressure to aid the remainers. You don't send your negotiators in with their hands tied behind their back. Nobody wants no deal but you don't take the option away. It's a terrible negotiation strategy.

A lot of remainers have labelled leavers in fantastical ways. Making sweeping statements declaring us fascists, racists and deluded which for me I thought as a nation we were above in the main.

I doubt if we had another referendum and the result was the same it would end the remainers revolting at every turn.


It’s a nice fantasy but very little of that is true.

But as you brought it up, let’s deal with this part:

Nobody wants no deal but you don't take the option away. It's a terrible negotiation strategy.


I see a lot of Leavers saying things like that. “If you go to buy a car you have to be prepared to walk away!”.

But this isn’t buying a car. This isn’t a normal trade negotiation.

No Deal doesn’t work as a negotiation strategy because we will not be returning to the status quo if we crash out. The EU know this, they know it will hurt us far more than it hurts them and they will not, under any circumstances, compromise on their four freedoms. And neither should they, we are the ones leaving, they shouldn’t have to change just because we were tricked by a bus.

No Deal isn’t a strategy, it’s insane nonsense.

I doubt if we had another referendum and the result was the same it would end the remainers revolting at every turn


And do you think Farage and co would have stopped "revolting" if 2016 had been 52% in favour of Remain? Please!

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Cuttooth
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Cuttooth » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:11 pm

Also the EU are more than prepared for a No Deal outcome and will be able to handle the fallout of it much better, being the much bigger entity.

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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Moggy » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:11 pm

PurplePenguin wrote:That's nonsense Preezy but a prime example of the shite coming from a remoaner.


"Stop calling Leave voters mean names"

Minutes later

"REMOANERS!!!"

As Preezy said, not all Leavers are racist. But all racists were Leavers.

Last edited by Moggy on Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hexx
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Hexx » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:11 pm

Garth wrote:The UK threatening no deal was always a crap negotiation tactic, if we went through with it would hurt us more than it would hurt the EU and we'd be immediately limping back to the negotiating table hoping for a deal again.


The use of no deal is complete crap and farcical, but appeals to simpleton (wonder who it's audience is)

It's not like, say, buying a car and trying to get a deal over price and you can threaten to walk away. If you don't get a deal and buy the car the status quo remains, and you continue using your old car and the dealer doesn't get some money. Maybe you'll search for a different deal

Imagine if you failed to agree a purchase price of the new car - but your old car is taken off you. You lose your job cus you can't commute. And they cancelled your credit cards. And your house set on fire. But hey! The car dealer didn't get his money!

:fp:

Last edited by Hexx on Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Preezy
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Preezy » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:12 pm

PurplePenguin wrote:That's nonsense Preezy but a prime example of the shite coming from a remoaner.

How is it nonsense?

Quoted again for the new page:
Preezy wrote:
PurplePenguin wrote:A lot of remainers have labelled leavers in fantastical ways. Making sweeping statements declaring us fascists, racists and deluded which for me I thought as a nation we were above in the main.

I think we can all agree that racism, nationalism and fascism are bad, yes?

Not all Leave voters are racist, but all racists voted Leave.
Not all Leave voters are nationalists, but all nationalists voted Leave.
Not all Leave voters are fascist, but all fascists voted Leave.

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captain red dog
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by captain red dog » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:13 pm

Preezy wrote:
PurplePenguin wrote:A lot of remainers have labelled leavers in fantastical ways. Making sweeping statements declaring us fascists, racists and deluded which for me I thought as a nation we were above in the main.

I think we can all agree that racism, nationalism and fascism are bad, yes?

Not all Leave voters are racist, but all racists voted Leave.
Not all Leave voters are nationalists, but all nationalists voted Leave.
Not all Leave voters are fascist, but all fascists voted Leave.

It's as if voting Leave appeals to a certain type of person...

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Well that's simply not true. There are plenty of racists amongst the hard left that support remain. Look at the antisemitism in the left of the Labour Party. The SNP are nationalist, they voted remain. This gets us nowhere.

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Garth
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Garth » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:14 pm

Cuttooth wrote:What's a sensible deal in your eyes and in what ways have remainers stopped the possibility of it being agreed?

Curious about that too.

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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Karl_ » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:15 pm

The fact that the country is still so deeply divided and angry underscores the need for strong democratic systems. Prorogation reflects the attempt of one small faction with extreme views (that a majority has certainly never voted for!) to take control and force their preference on everyone else.

Having all our representatives argue about how best to do something---or whether we should do it at all---is democratic, that's what representative democracy is. A referendum to check that people still want what the representatives eventually cooked up is also democratic, that's how referenda are supposed to be used if you're going to use them.

The most extreme faction in the debate shutting down those debates and checks, and trying to just do what they want, is the opposite of democracy. Boris Johnson is an unelected Prime Minister, No Deal supporting Tories represent a tiny minority of our representatives.

Even if you want No Deal, if you really voted for "more democracy", you should be absolutely shocked at prorogation, and making your objections heard.

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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Blue Eyes » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:15 pm

FWIW I don't think it's fair to claim all racists voted Leave etc. Theresa May was a remainer (apparently) and she's a racist old banana split. I reckon a lot of racists voted Remain in spite of their racist views, as they still basically live in a world of logic and knew that leaving was stupid and pointless.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Moggy » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:15 pm

captain red dog wrote:Well that's simply not true. There are plenty of racists amongst the hard left that support remain. Look at the antisemitism in the left of the Labour Party. The SNP are nationalist, they voted remain. This gets us nowhere.


The SNP are not the same sort of nationalists that we are talking about.

And the hard left are just as likely to be Lexit supporters. Just like you claimed to be.

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Hexx
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Hexx » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:16 pm

Blue Eyes wrote:FWIW I don't think it's fair to claim all racists voted Leave etc. Theresa May was a remainer (apparently) and she's a racist old banana split. I reckon a lot of racists voted Remain in spite of their racist views, as they still basically live in a world of logic and knew that leaving was stupid and pointless.


I actually agree. "All" is a bit too definitive. "The far overwhelming majority" would be much more apt

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Cuttooth
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Cuttooth » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:17 pm

Preezy wrote:
PurplePenguin wrote:That's nonsense Preezy but a prime example of the shite coming from a remoaner.

How is it nonsense?

Quoted again for the new page:
Preezy wrote:
PurplePenguin wrote:A lot of remainers have labelled leavers in fantastical ways. Making sweeping statements declaring us fascists, racists and deluded which for me I thought as a nation we were above in the main.

I think we can all agree that racism, nationalism and fascism are bad, yes?

Not all Leave voters are racist, but all racists voted Leave.
Not all Leave voters are nationalists, but all nationalists voted Leave.
Not all Leave voters are fascist, but all fascists voted Leave.

We'll, it is a bit of a nonsense argument. There are plenty of racist Remain voters whose concern over their own economic stability outweighed their "legitimate concerns" about not being able to eavesdrop on conversations on buses.

It is absolutely true that it was the Leave campaigns that were racist, that were nationalist, and did court fascist rhetoric (particularly post referendum). Anyone who voted for Leave should be comfortable in knowing who else was being actively courted by those campaigns, and in light of the past three years cannot reasonably claim ignorance of what those campaigns now want and have become.

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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by gamerforever » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:21 pm

If we had another referendum, what do you think the split would be? I would say 60/40 in favour of staying.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Moggy » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:31 pm

gamerforever wrote:If we had another referendum, what do you think the split would be? I would say 60/40 in favour of staying.


I think it'd be in favour of Remain, but I don't think it'd be that high. At best I would guess 55% Remain, probably more like 52-53%.

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Blue Eyes
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Blue Eyes » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:33 pm

gamerforever wrote:If we had another referendum, what do you think the split would be? I would say 60/40 in favour of staying.

I have no faith in the people of this stupid country full of banana splits. Leave would win again.

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Garth
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Garth » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:47 pm

Boris Johnson secretly agreed to suspend parliament two weeks before denying it would happen, Downing St documents reveal
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 89911.html



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