Suspension of democracy ruled unlawful by Supreme Court | Parliament NOT prorogued | Election November?

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Cuttooth
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Cuttooth » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:50 pm

Would be funny if the courts actually did halt Parliament being prorogued. Would also presumably mean Johnson lied to the Queen?

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Rex Kramer
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Rex Kramer » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:52 pm

I wonder if Cummings absolute disdain for the civil service could be the undoing of this government. Absolutely nothing they do will remain secret as I'd imagine there is a mass of disgruntled civil servants who'd be happy to leak to the press.

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PurplePenguin
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by PurplePenguin » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:52 pm

Garth wrote:
Cuttooth wrote:What's a sensible deal in your eyes and in what ways have remainers stopped the possibility of it being agreed?

Curious about that too.


I apologize Garth I do not know all the fine details of what would be a sensible arrangement with the EU whilst not being a member. I do think we could have had the correct people in to negotiate such a thing if we didn't end up with the Maybot who didn't know what her negotiating stance should be. May was easily pushed over by both those inside her own party and the EU. I also sense her heart wasn't truly in it she did vote remain and really I am surprised the party decided she was the right person to lead the country at the time.

But you cannot for one minute look at this whole situation and think there hasn't been a core of pro-remain MP's in a number of parties that have sort to undermine the whole thing so that we remain in the EU. The EU have seized on the fact the country is not united and have just allowed leavers and remainers to butt heads and took a hard line to bolster the pro-remain movement.

Do I want no deal? absolutely not. Do I think there is a minority of racists or other types of vile human beings that voted leave? absolutely. But that is still a small minority.


By now I presume Moggy has posted about five times as the guy cannot for one moment let anything remotely leave orientated go unpunished.

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Rex Kramer
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Rex Kramer » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:57 pm

PurplePenguin wrote:
Garth wrote:
Cuttooth wrote:What's a sensible deal in your eyes and in what ways have remainers stopped the possibility of it being agreed?

Curious about that too.


I apologize Garth I do not know all the fine details of what would be a sensible arrangement with the EU whilst not being a member. I do think we could have had the correct people in to negotiate such a thing if we didn't end up with the Maybot who didn't know what her negotiating stance should be. May was easily pushed over by both those inside her own party and the EU. I also sense her heart wasn't truly in it she did vote remain and really I am surprised the party decided she was the right person to lead the country at the time.

But you cannot for one minute look at this whole situation and think there hasn't been a core of pro-remain MP's in a number of parties that have sort to undermine the whole thing so that we remain in the EU. The EU have seized on the fact the country is not united and have just allowed leavers and remainers to butt heads and took a hard line to bolster the pro-remain movement.

Do I want no deal? absolutely not. Do I think there is a minority of racists or other types of vile human beings that voted leave? absolutely. But that is still a small minority.


By now I presume Moggy has posted about five times as the guy cannot for one moment let anything remotely leave orientated go unpunished.

Plain and simple, there is no deal available that would unite all leave voting groups. Not one. And that is why they don't want a 2nd referendum on the final deal as that will inevitably split their vote.

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Cuttooth
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Cuttooth » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:00 pm

OK skip the fine details, what broadly do you want the UK and the EU to agree to in terms of withdrawal?

And why do you not like the deal that has been agreed between the UK and the EU?

I don't think the EU really care about remain voices since they have never been negotiating with remain leaders/had to deal with remain 'red lines'.

The negotiations have been based around the red lines laid out by the UK government and the current EU rules set up and agreed by 28 countries. The EU aren't blind to the fact they have the stronger position, where remainers have apparently given the game away.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Moggy » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:00 pm

PurplePenguin wrote:By now I presume Moggy has posted about five times as the guy cannot for one moment let anything remotely leave orientated go unpunished.


Unpunished? Where exactly have I “punished” you? By pointing out how inaccurate and fact free your arguments are?

I have refrained from calling you names, whereas you’ve been chucking around things like “Remoaner”.

You seem to have very little grasp on how politics works. So much so that you seem to act like you have decoded a vast conspiracy that Remain supporting MPs want to Remain…. Astonishing detective work there.

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captain red dog
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by captain red dog » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:04 pm

Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:Well that's simply not true. There are plenty of racists amongst the hard left that support remain. Look at the antisemitism in the left of the Labour Party. The SNP are nationalist, they voted remain. This gets us nowhere.


The SNP are not the same sort of nationalists that we are talking about.

And the hard left are just as likely to be Lexit supporters. Just like you claimed to be.

Well that is changing the goal posts somewhat. Obviously there are different strands of nationalism, but the SNP are undeniably nationalist.

And yes there will also be hard left Lexit supporters. I was talking about the point that "all racists voted leave". Ken Livingstone voted remain and was expelled from Labour for antisemitism, for example. Its just such a silly tabloidy claim to make and helps nobody.

I don't just claim to be Lexit. I voted Corbyn in both elections, have always voted Labour, am a member of a trade union, pay the political levy on my union membership to the Labour Party, and align with Tony Benn and Dennis Skinners views on the EU.

I would vote remain now though as the Tories are pushing a no deal and seem to have a grip on power. I couldn't in good conscience support leaving on those terms, with an unleashed Tory govt in control.

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Hexx
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Hexx » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:07 pm

PurplePenguin wrote:
Garth wrote:
Cuttooth wrote:What's a sensible deal in your eyes and in what ways have remainers stopped the possibility of it being agreed?

Curious about that too.


I apologize Garth I do not know all the fine details of what would be a sensible arrangement with the EU whilst not being a member. I do think we could have had the correct people in to negotiate such a thing if we didn't end up with the Maybot who didn't know what her negotiating stance should be. May was easily pushed over by both those inside her own party and the EU. I also sense her heart wasn't truly in it she did vote remain and really I am surprised the party decided she was the right person to lead the country at the time.

But you cannot for one minute look at this whole situation and think there hasn't been a core of pro-remain MP's in a number of parties that have sort to undermine the whole thing so that we remain in the EU. The EU have seized on the fact the country is not united and have just allowed leavers and remainers to butt heads and took a hard line to bolster the pro-remain movement.

Do I want no deal? absolutely not. Do I think there is a minority of racists or other types of vile human beings that voted leave? absolutely. But that is still a small minority.

By now I presume Moggy has posted about five times as the guy cannot for one moment let anything remotely leave orientated go unpunished.


The EU agreed a deal. They were 'happy' for us to leave. (As was Johnson on those terms until it became convenient for his career...)

The EU also made clear the many options that were available and it would engage in depending on the UK's red lines. They were 'happy' for us to leave on other terms

The fact that no deal could ever ever deliver the lies you believed is no one's fault but yours and the liars you continue to choose to believe for 3+ years

You're an angry insecure little man, blaming others rather than owning up to the fact your fell (and continue to) for the obvious con you did. You don't get to blame others for you being fool. Grow up.

Last edited by Hexx on Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by OrangeRKN » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:08 pm

PurplePenguin wrote:Do I want no deal? absolutely not.


So you're against the proroguement of parliament? Unless parliament prevents it, no deal is looking increasingly likely. It being the default outcome is madness.

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PurplePenguin
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by PurplePenguin » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:09 pm

I think if we had the right sort of leader in who had the qualities required to make certain camps understand that it's a process that requires a bit of give and take on all sides then it could have happened. May doesn't have leadership qualities and looked out of her depth almost from the get go. Boris is just a terrible choice as PM and I fear he was just put in power for one reason. The Pro-Brexit hardcore believe Boris could win an election on a leave ticket. I mean he would be going up against Corbyn who is not exactly Mr Charisma.

The whole situation is a mess but when the dust has settled I think the referendum will be for nothing and we'll all be told "well it was for the best look how the negotiations went" but I don't think that had to be the way the story played out.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Moggy » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:10 pm

captain red dog wrote:
Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:Well that's simply not true. There are plenty of racists amongst the hard left that support remain. Look at the antisemitism in the left of the Labour Party. The SNP are nationalist, they voted remain. This gets us nowhere.


The SNP are not the same sort of nationalists that we are talking about.

And the hard left are just as likely to be Lexit supporters. Just like you claimed to be.

Well that is changing the goal posts somewhat. Obviously there are different strands of nationalism, but the SNP are undeniably nationalist.

And yes there will also be hard left Lexit supporters. I was talking about the point that "all racists voted leave". Ken Livingstone voted remain and was expelled from Labour for antisemitism, for example. Its just such a silly tabloidy claim to make and helps nobody.

I don't just claim to be Lexit. I voted Corbyn in both elections, have always voted Labour, am a member of a trade union, pay the political levy on my union membership to the Labour Party, and align with Tony Benn and Dennis Skinners views on the EU.

I would vote remain now though as the Tories are pushing a no deal and seem to have a grip on power. I couldn't in good conscience support leaving on those terms, with an unleashed Tory govt in control.


By “like you claimed to be” I didn’t mean it confrontationally – although reading back I can see why it looked that way.

The SNP are not the same Nationalists as we are talking about here. Nationalism in an English sense means somebody who believes in English superiority. In the SNP it means somebody who believes Scotland should be independent. They are two completely different things and no goalposts have been changed.

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Cuttooth
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Cuttooth » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:11 pm

PurplePenguin wrote:I think if we had the right sort of leader in who had the qualities required to make certain camps understand that it's a process that requires a bit of give and take on all sides then it could have happened. May doesn't have leadership qualities and looked out of her depth almost from the get go. Boris is just a terrible choice as PM and I fear he was just put in power for one reason. The Pro-Brexit hardcore believe Boris could win an election on a leave ticket. I mean he would be going up against Corbyn who is not exactly Mr Charisma.

The whole situation is a mess but when the dust has settled I think the referendum will be for nothing and we'll all be told "well it was for the best look how the negotiations went" but I don't think that had to be the way the story played out.

If literally every remain voter and politician decided that yes, this was a game of football, Leave won and that's the end of it - what exactly changes in terms of negotiation on the EU's side? Why would they care?

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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Winckle » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:12 pm

PurplePenguin wrote:I think if we had the right sort of leader in who had the qualities required to make certain camps understand that it's a process that requires a bit of give and take on all sides then it could have happened. May doesn't have leadership qualities and looked out of her depth almost from the get go. Boris is just a terrible choice as PM and I fear he was just put in power for one reason. The Pro-Brexit hardcore believe Boris could win an election on a leave ticket. I mean he would be going up against Corbyn who is not exactly Mr Charisma.

The whole situation is a mess but when the dust has settled I think the referendum will be for nothing and we'll all be told "well it was for the best look how the negotiations went" but I don't think that had to be the way the story played out.

Brexit cannot fail, it can only be failed.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Moggy » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:15 pm

PurplePenguin wrote:The whole situation is a mess but when the dust has settled I think the referendum will be for nothing and we'll all be told "well it was for the best look how the negotiations went" but I don't think that had to be the way the story played out.


It always had to go this way. There was no other option once the Leave side became infested with liars promising unicorns.

Theresa May set out the red lines and most Leavers lapped it up. But with an end to freedom of movement, we ended up making it impossible to get any other sort of deal than the one we were offered.

May (or another leader) could have dropped the red lines and gone for a deal. But then the likes of Farage would have torn their throats out. Look how quickly Farage has moved from “Norway style deal” to “WTO Brexit”.

The only way this could have gone differently is if the Leave campaigns had actually agreed on what Brexit was in the first place and had honestly told the public what Brexit would mean. But they didn’t, they were content to mislead and outright lie to the public as to what Brexit meant. And so we ended up here.

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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Tomous » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:21 pm

Moggy wrote:The only way this could have gone differently is if the Leave campaigns had actually agreed on what Brexit was in the first place and had honestly told the public what Brexit would mean. But they didn’t, they were content to mislead and outright lie to the public as to what Brexit meant. And so we ended up here.


Remain would have won comfortably if Leave had to campaign without lying.

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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Moggy » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:30 pm

Tomous wrote:
Moggy wrote:The only way this could have gone differently is if the Leave campaigns had actually agreed on what Brexit was in the first place and had honestly told the public what Brexit would mean. But they didn’t, they were content to mislead and outright lie to the public as to what Brexit meant. And so we ended up here.


Remain would have won comfortably if Leave had to campaign without lying.


Yep. And that’s why “will of the people” and “respect democracy” is bollocks. It isn’t democracy if one side has lied about what the outcome would be.

This is all Cameron’s fault though for being an arrogant prick who thought people would listen to him. If he had to call a referendum, then he should have first ensured that Leave set out exactly what Leave meant. Once they had written down a coherent position as to what Leave meant, then he could have gone to the country with it.

But the tool figured he’d keep the Tories together and win easily and so he strawberry floated the entire country instead.

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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by PurplePenguin » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:34 pm

Tomous wrote:
Moggy wrote:The only way this could have gone differently is if the Leave campaigns had actually agreed on what Brexit was in the first place and had honestly told the public what Brexit would mean. But they didn’t, they were content to mislead and outright lie to the public as to what Brexit meant. And so we ended up here.


Remain would have won comfortably if Leave had to campaign without lying.


There was lies on both sides. Claims even voting to leave would put us into instant recession, Cameron actually got Obama to say the UK would go at the back of the queue when it comes to a trade deal with the US if we left the EU.

I think most people can see through the lies.

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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by PurplePenguin » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:37 pm

Hexx wrote:
PurplePenguin wrote:
Garth wrote:
Cuttooth wrote:What's a sensible deal in your eyes and in what ways have remainers stopped the possibility of it being agreed?

Curious about that too.


I apologize Garth I do not know all the fine details of what would be a sensible arrangement with the EU whilst not being a member. I do think we could have had the correct people in to negotiate such a thing if we didn't end up with the Maybot who didn't know what her negotiating stance should be. May was easily pushed over by both those inside her own party and the EU. I also sense her heart wasn't truly in it she did vote remain and really I am surprised the party decided she was the right person to lead the country at the time.

But you cannot for one minute look at this whole situation and think there hasn't been a core of pro-remain MP's in a number of parties that have sort to undermine the whole thing so that we remain in the EU. The EU have seized on the fact the country is not united and have just allowed leavers and remainers to butt heads and took a hard line to bolster the pro-remain movement.

Do I want no deal? absolutely not. Do I think there is a minority of racists or other types of vile human beings that voted leave? absolutely. But that is still a small minority.

By now I presume Moggy has posted about five times as the guy cannot for one moment let anything remotely leave orientated go unpunished.


The EU agreed a deal. They were 'happy' for us to leave. (As was Johnson on those terms until it became convenient for his career...)

The EU also made clear the many options that were available and it would engage in depending on the UK's red lines. They were 'happy' for us to leave on other terms

The fact that no deal could ever ever deliver the lies you believed is no one's fault but yours and the liars you continue to choose to believe for 3+ years

You're an angry insecure little man, blaming others rather than owning up to the fact your fell (and continue to) for the obvious con you did. You don't get to blame others for you being fool. Grow up.


Hexx acting the hard man online is super easy. Kids do it. I think you're the one who needs to grow up.

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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Hexx » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:38 pm

PurplePenguin wrote:There was lies on both sides.


No where near equilavant

Claims even voting to leave would put us into instant recession


Claims, which if bother to represent them accurately and the conditions,were true. You just love lies and spins.

Why is reality so abhorrent to you?

Cameron actually got Obama to say the UK would go at the back of the queue when it comes to a trade deal with the US if we left the EU.


You ignorant little bumble :slol:

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Moggy
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PostRe: Democracy in UK suspended by unelected far-right Prime Minister | General election seems imminent
by Moggy » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:39 pm

PurplePenguin wrote:
Tomous wrote:
Moggy wrote:The only way this could have gone differently is if the Leave campaigns had actually agreed on what Brexit was in the first place and had honestly told the public what Brexit would mean. But they didn’t, they were content to mislead and outright lie to the public as to what Brexit meant. And so we ended up here.


Remain would have won comfortably if Leave had to campaign without lying.


There was lies on both sides. Claims even voting to leave would put us into instant recession, Cameron actually got Obama to say the UK would go at the back of the queue when it comes to a trade deal with the US if we left the EU.

I think most people can see through the lies.


Neither of those are lies.

Osbourne said he would have to do an emergency budget if the country voted to leave. That was taken out of his hands when Cameron immediately quit. The pound tumbled when the referendum result was announced and the Bank of England took measures to stop us sliding into recession.

Obama said we would be at the back of the queue, apparently after Cameron asked him to. That’s not really a lie, Obama would have meant it. But since then Trump (who nobody would have predicted!) has taken over and is saying something different. Which is also irrelevant as the Senate have already said there will be no trade deal for the UK if we don’t sort out the Irish border.

Predictions that don’t come true are not lies. Promises that are taken out of somebodies hands are not lies.

Now compare what people like Johnson, Gove and Farage said before the referendum to what they are saying now.


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