The Poker Thread

What's the maths behind that?

After a bad series - I am going to ask a genuine question, because I am going through a lot of my play in my head - do you think I'm cack?

The reason I ask is I'm working harder on my game than ever. I know a lot of it is in jest, but sometimes there wasn't a moment when I wasn't getting some comment on how I was playing something when no-one else was getting nearly as much scrutiny - do you GENUINELY think I am an utter donk, or is the donk stuff mainly a joke?

I think I made some errors, made some real good moves as well. I thought I was weakest in the HU game, and strongest in the Omaha. Does that tally? I've backed myself into a corner where I don't know what genuine criticism is anymore, and whats just comments made in jest.

EDIT - I should add that I know I am not a great online player. However, I am a winning live player and find it hard to believe I translate as badly as is made out. I did run bad - but that isn't an excuse, I just wonder when I've made what seems a genuine good play - I still tend to get a bit of stick? I just want to get better I guess, but I'm stuck between whether that series was a run bad or a play bad, because I don't have the software telling me as such.

DML wrote:After a bad series - I am going to ask a genuine question, because I am going through a lot of my play in my head - do you think I'm cack?

To be honest I haven't watched you play enough to say. If you are winning money or even just breaking even then continue to study and improve and you will win more. If you are losing then focus on one game that you are best at.

I remember about a year or so ago several people criticised some of your hands and you took it badly when really they were just trying to help. So post hands that you're not sure about and take on board the comments, even if you don't agree at least try and see both angles.

In terms of the GRSOP you can be the best poker player in the world and still come last due to variance as there were only five events, so don't read too much into it. It's also a mix of games with only two holdem events and not everyone is going to be strong at every type of game. I was awful in the GRSOP and didn't cash in any of the events, but then I know I'm not going to be great at 8-game or omaha as I never play them. I've been playing lots of HU recently but still lost my first game in the GRSOP and didn't exactly do well in the main event but I know I am good at that sort of game usually.

satriales wrote:

DML wrote:After a bad series - I am going to ask a genuine question, because I am going through a lot of my play in my head - do you think I'm cack?

To be honest I haven't watched you play enough to say. If you are winning money or even just breaking even then continue to study and improve and you will win more. If you are losing then focus on one game that you are best at.

I remember about a year or so ago several people criticised some of your hands and you took it badly when really they were just trying to help. So post hands that you're not sure about and take on board the comments, even if you don't agree at least try and see both angles.

Sure. My game (and mentality) has moved on a lot since then - but I still am feeling the reprecussions of then I think. I am not the player I was then, but I've had a worse series - and an awful two weeks in poker. The hand I went out on last night put me in a difficult corner when something I really wasnt expecting happening, despite having planned ahead for it! I may stick this hand on later actually. I think last years disagreements sprung over personality clashes and not the hands themselves, and I cannot shake them. I also know a lot of players who spout maths in the live game, and it has absolutely no coherence with what is actually going on long and short term - it seems an easy route to explain away a play, and I don't buy into some of that chatter.

I am a winning live player, and now a losing online player (I think). I read a lot, I work hard on my game, I talk with poker friends a lot about hands, watch a lot of poker, and I really wanted to show you guys that I can play - so I can kinda be accepted I guess. Sounds stupid, probably is - but just want to shake the label off, I want hands viewed not through a 'DML Donk' lens, which I don't think is possible right now. Maybe I'm wrong....

satriales wrote:

In terms of the GRSOP you can be the best poker player in the world and still come last.

How I busted out first in the 8-game event I do not know. I have made in the range of $200-$250 profit from a fair 1000 rotations. It is however, a game of much LARGER variance than just holdem or omaha and playing against such a wide range of hands in a small sample isn't great. I might have got a bit fishy at some points along with you guys too

I think it is quite evident that you try to bring your live game to the online game which doesn't seem to work for you. You play far too many hands, in all disciplines (I know mixed games and other games you may know less!), and this can only string you up. And your respect for positional aspects in the game isn't great. Mid to low stakes poker online tends not to be about making moves and mixing up your play. I'd recommend learning the ABC of online poker thoroughly before trying the DEF.

And no your definitely not cack!!

Has anyone actually got VPIP stats from last nights game? I would be interested to see them...

Who cares, hurry up with revealing who is up for lynching in AYAW.

Luwinski wrote:

satriales wrote:

In terms of the GRSOP you can be the best poker player in the world and still come last.

How I busted out first in the 8-game event I do not know. I have made in the range of $200-$250 profit from a fair 1000 rotations. It is however, a game of much LARGER variance than just holdem or omaha and playing against such a wide range of hands in a small sample isn't great. I might have got a bit fishy at some points along with you guys too

I think it is quite evident that you try to bring your live game to the online game which doesn't seem to work for you. You play far too many hands, in all disciplines (I know mixed games and other games you may know less!), and this can only string you up. And your respect for positional aspects in the game isn't great. Mid to low stakes poker online tends not to be about making moves and mixing up your play. I'd recommend learning the ABC of online poker thoroughly before trying the DEF.

And no your definitely not cack!!

I'm against you guys though aren't I? You aren't my normal ABC opponents at all. If anything, I should alter my game? Also, I definitely don't think I was playing many hands in hat last game, although I cant speak for the Eight-Game in particular, I have no idea what level of hands you are meant to play in some of them, but my VPIP is definitely not at 38%!

My respect for position is great, as I know everyone elses is, so I try use that to my advantage at times. Nova questioned me limping UTG with A-Kh, but I got exactly the desired result by getting an all-in to call. This is a move I would NEVER make in a donk game - but thats because I have more respect for the players at the table. I know that if I raise, its going to look so strong that I get folds. Maybe when my computer is better, I can make a video and show you what sort of hands I am actually playing.

The hand I went out of the ME to Ben was where I had AQc and he had AJd. Sat was in the hand and I was in the BB. Sat limped for what was a large portion of his stack, and Ben also completed. I elected to raise 5x to get a call from Satriales, although I am happy that I'd take a shove from Ben as well to get back into the game. What I wasnt counting on was Satriales to fold and Ben then just to CALL. Hes stuck in so much that I can only shove anything. My mind is whirring that the only hands he can have have me beat, such as A-K , or a pair. When the flop comes Nine High, he checks, and I want to shove, but I cannot see a hand he has made this 'call' with and then wont call this all-in on such a low flop. If hes got A-K, hes got odds to call, and any pair he is going to call. I check back and the next card is just as low. He checks again, which confuses me as surely he would bet this now with a decent pair? However, for whatever shake the feeling that I don't know what I can make fold here - I don't really have a card to reasonably bluffed for the odds I am giving him, its still too likely I'll get a call. The final card is a low diamond, completing a draw and I play this REALLY badly now I've got myself in knots. Ben now bets half my remaining stack - and I stupidly read it as weakness. Regardless of the strength of my hand, I cannot just call even if an all-in makes me look silly, its either I'm ahead, or not - ALL-IN or fold. I elect to shove thinking that most pairs have left his range, and he would shove larger ones pre-flop - and he shows the A-Jd for the flush. I couldn't stick him on that hand - just because of such a strong call on the flop...

DML wrote:My respect for position is great, as I know everyone elses is, so I try use that to my advantage at times. Nova questioned me limping UTG with A-Kh, but I got exactly the desired result by getting an all-in to call. This is a move I would NEVER make in a donk game - but thats because I have more respect for the players at the table. I know that if I raise, its going to look so strong that I get folds. Maybe when my computer is better, I can make a video and show you what sort of hands I am actually playing.

Fair enough to mix your play up but I don't feel we play together enough as a group to mean making changes to your fundamental will have any positive effect. I think the times where you get in difficult spots when it's limped around and you're playing flops sometimes out of position against opponents who it's difficult to put on a range outweigh the times I pick up a hand good enough to shove over your limp.

The stats I've got for you on my HEM are VPIP 23.5, 13.7 PFR, 3Bet 8, WTSD% 60, Flop Turn and River Cbet are all 100.

PsychicSykes wrote:

DML wrote:My respect for position is great, as I know everyone elses is, so I try use that to my advantage at times. Nova questioned me limping UTG with A-Kh, but I got exactly the desired result by getting an all-in to call. This is a move I would NEVER make in a donk game - but thats because I have more respect for the players at the table. I know that if I raise, its going to look so strong that I get folds. Maybe when my computer is better, I can make a video and show you what sort of hands I am actually playing.

Fair enough to mix your play up but I don't feel we play together enough as a group to mean making changes to your fundamental will have any positive effect. I think the times where you get in difficult spots when it's limped around and you're playing flops sometimes out of position against opponents who it's difficult to put on a range outweigh the times I pick up a hand good enough to shove over your limp.

The stats I've got for you on my HEM are VPIP 23.5, 13.7 PFR, 3Bet 8, WTSD% 60, Flop Turn and River Cbet are all 100.

Whats that one? And does this only apply to Hold Em? Also does that include only hands you are in with me? As there were a few hands I didn't C-Bet a turn or river in that game alone...

Its not changing my fundementals is it? I just said that its a one off against guys like yourselves I would make that kind of play. My standard play is far more ABC, as those who have sweated me in tournaments and Multi SNGs will hopefully account for.

The difficult spots I had were ones where I was actually IN position, not out of it. Limping a hand from early position allows you to see what action is happening behind you before you act again, it also doesn't commit me to the hand either. If I raise A-K, none of the short-stacks are going to shove with worse. If I limp - okay I am in bad position if it goes to a flop, but its an Ace high hand at the end of the day, its not Queens. I think the play has more merit then maybe you suggest, but then maybe I am wrong. The difficult spot I described I was not out of position, so that wasn't the 'leak' here. Does my reasoning seem sound here, or would you be shoving any flop despite such a strong call?

Went to Showdown %, it's the hands from last night where I was dealt cards so it's a small sample.

AK is a mighty big club in a tournament and I think it should be used as such. People can shove worse too and I'd have had trouble shoving stuff like 33 if you'd raised so it makes sense to raise to me. Raising also forces your opponents to define their range better by their actions following your raise. I don't think it's a massive leak but I think you're better off sticking with the standard raise as it also helps to disguise the occasional steal from UTG.

I can't comment on the hand you mentioned because I missed it when my internet died. If someone wants to post the HH that'd be great.

This is the one:

Poker Stars $10+$1 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t25/t50 Blinds - 6 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

rexmcpwn (CO): t3059 61.18 BBs
Luwinski (BTN): t1810 36.20 BBs
Aenbungus (SB): t6138 122.76 BBs
lizzimba (BB): t1883 37.66 BBs
Proper Zing (UTG): t1175 23.50 BBs
Hero (MP): t935 18.70 BBs

Pre Flop: (t75) Hero is MP with 5 A
1 fold, Hero raises to t150, 2 folds, lizzimba says "could been freerolling lol", Hero says "gg wolf", Aenbungus calls t125, lizzimba raises to t750, Proper Zing says "lool", 1 fold, Aenbungus calls t600

Flop: (t1650) 2 9 3 (2 players)
Aenbungus checks, Hero says "ok i'm just shoving from now on", lizzimba checks

Turn: (t1650) 3 (2 players)
rexmcpwn says "haha", Proper Zing says "lool", Aenbungus checks, lizzimba checks

River: (t1650) 4 (2 players)
Aenbungus bets t500, rexmcpwn says "AK AQ", rexmcpwn says "HERO CALL", lizzimba raises to t1133 all in, Aenbungus calls t633

Final Pot: t3916
Aenbungus shows J A (a flush, Ace high)
lizzimba shows A Q (a pair of Threes)
Aenbungus wins t3916

I'm glad I got away from my hand, I didn't limp but it was obvious I was dominated when DML raised and I felt I could wait for a better spot than get it in with A5 that time.

I'd say DML is much tighter than I've seen preflop.

My river all-in.



Ben's call on the flop is fairly disastrous as well - but it did get me in knots for the reasons I said before.

SAT - If you had had a A-J, A-TEN would you have felt compelled to go with it?

Also - I just remembered my call of the Q-9 with my A-TEN. Really loose call by my usual standards, but it was a good one...

DML you have a PM not Werewolf related.

Set of hands I have on you from sitting next to you in a random $4.40. Your running 44/24/0/14.3 (VPIP/PFR/Steal/Three bet). With a C-bet percentage of 33% on the flop and 25% delayed c-bet you'll be scooping the pot pretty infrequently. I realise the small hand sample mate but I've watched you play and it seems pretty indicative of your standard moves.

Note very minute raise from you OOP with a huge hand. No C-bet. You delay till the turn against a complete donk. If you weren't going to win it on that flop you weren't going to win it without spiking. You have to continue. We saw this exact same play vs BSA in the tournament last night.



Here's another flop check as the initial raiser OOP. What did you plan to happen with that hand. Check down and win? Plan ahead mate!!



I don't know what you lead out with that you can't call the turn with versus a 3 bettor. If you have a hand worth betting you should be CHECKING to raise your monster or to check call for pot control to the guy who has the initiative to bet as he is the 3 bettor and the guy who has position.



I think your position play is poor these scenarios. Your plays don't look like your planning ahead for forward streets or understand how to represent strength and hand quality. It will lose you table respect in the long run!

In all fairness, DML, I think you did fine during the GRSOP. Everyone has to get some banter, though. Including myself, for playing back at my brother and getting knocked out

I think with the AKs you are still better off raising pre. The chips would still have gone in with a decent enough hand, but it also inflates the pot to the flop when you have the best hand like 100% of the time.

You played very well in spots, no doubt. I'm not entirely sure about your calling range in Omaha, but then that's not really fair considering our (on-the-whole) knowledge of the game. You had a good series, I thought, but definitely hit some cooler spots, as well as (mibs) a little FPS

We have a new world champion

GG Duhamel.

Welcome to yawn town. Sounds like a lame headsup at least the canadian won!