The Poker Thread

Yeah the turn is a great card to bet, IMO. When the board pairs, he's going to give you less credit for a bet. Makes the river all-in harder to fold to as well.

Anyway, roll update - $1455. Run into some variance.

EDIT - Oh, and Drum, I'd recommend not showing the result. It can affect the way the hand is looked at.

Half of the people who post in the thread already know the result, but fair point. Finished 4th FWIW. 55 < AQ

Still, profit

A hand from the final table of that tournament which Sykes, Luw, and Gaz have been arguing about for about, ooh, 45 minutes?


WHAT DO?

Sykes is a turn noob. Period.

Bet again? What's he calling with on the flop that he can't call on the turn?

Check the turn, then bet the river.

If we fire the second bullet it's going to be difficult for him to call given the texture of the board and the fact we're probably going to be putting more chips in on the river. Given that he's called pre OOP, cc a wet flop and then checked when the flush has hit it's difficult to put him on a hand of any real strength. Big pairs would have 3bet pre and overcards fold on the flop unless they have a spade draw in which case we're going to get value on the river since he can think he has the best hand when we check. Sets are unlikely as you'd expect him to try and get more chips in on the flop before a scare card came which might stop the Hero stacking off with an overpair, so he's probably got some weak one pair hand, or one pair with a draw, maybe even two pair.

The good thing is not only are we ahead of every hand on the list, there is also only a tiny chance we're going to get outdrawn. In fact, we'd obviously welcome him hitting a straight or a flush as he might think he has the best hand should we check the turn. If we do decide to bet again on the turn, given the stack sizes he's going to have to face up to the fact if he calls this second bet he will probably face a third one on the river. When you take into account how horrible this board is to any sort of range you can assign a flatcaller from the blinds, it's difficult to see how any hand can continue facing a turn bet. Hence I believe that checking is the superior play with the intention to make a value bet on the river that he will be able to call easier.

Nova wrote:

Phatman wrote:I want a few opinions on how I should have played this hand:

I get 10c-9c on the small blind, with a stack of 4,500, the blinds being 500-1000. It's folded round to me, with the very loose big stack on the big blind. There are five players remaining.

I limped in hoping to set a double-trap (make him think I want him to put me all in, when in fact I want him to check). He checks and the flop comes down 8d-7h-3s, giving me an open-ended straight draw. At this point I tried to set the same trap, in order to get a free card, under the assumption that pushing wouldn't be enough to get him off the pot even if he'd only hit bottom pair (he is very loose and 'heroic'). He pushes me all-in and despite the maths not being right (32% without even 2:1 on my money) I made the call under the justification that I couldn't afford to spunk off many more blinds and this was a double-up chance. He won the hand with Q-high. Should I have folded pre-flop? Should I have pushed pre-flop? Should I have pushed before he had to chance to put me all-in? Should I have folded when he did? I've heard a variety of opinions from people. I'm interested in a few opinions from here.

Hang on...you limped with 4.5 big blinds? You have to shove, IMO. You're hand plays well against most of his calling range, even AK. Are you in the small blind? Definitely, definitely shove, I reckon. Don't worry if he calls, I don't think.

However, if you're really scared, just fold pre. But I wouldn't limp if I was you, as you have such a short stack.

Oh, and on the flop, if you haven't shoved already, definitely shove now. He has to fold a lot of hands, and fold equity is really important. Even if he is hardly ever folding, he's folding a hell of a lot more than when he puts you all in

Hindsight is a bitch. I was thinking I should have shoved pre-flop and I knew I should have shoved on the flop. I think the problem was that I knew the guy well enough as a player to know that he is looser than a prostitute. Earlier in the tourney he found a way to call my 5x the blind raise with K-2 off-suit and less than 2:1 on his money. I had Q-Q and the flop came down A-9-K, so I had to fold.

satriales wrote:I don't need to read the rest, with your stack being only 4.5x the big blind I would be shoving all-in with any two cards if it's folded to you in the small blind.

Your stack is too small to be setting traps, your options are simply all-in or fold and at this stage. Shoving and hoping to pick up the blinds or double up is the better option of the two. There are a few rare times where I wouldn't but generally if I have less than 10 big blinds I'm shoving anything from the small blind if it's folded to me.

Agreed in hindsight again. My problem is not knowing how to deal with donks. I can predict the play of a reasonable player, but complete donks just can't throw away their cards and have a nasty habit of sucking out.

PsychicSykes wrote:
Given that he's called pre OOP, cc a wet flop and then checked when the flush has hit it's difficult to put him on a hand of any real strength. Big pairs would have 3bet pre and overcards fold on the flop unless they have a spade draw in which case we're going to get value on the river since he can think he has the best hand when we check. Sets are unlikely as you'd expect him to try and get more chips in on the flop before a scare card came which might stop the Hero stacking off with an overpair, so he's probably got some weak one pair hand, or one pair with a draw, maybe even two pair.

EDIT: By the way, that's a read-less standard for me. If I had specific reads (such as he float-folds a lot OOP, being an obvious one), then obviously my play changes.


I think, generally this play misses out on value. Players generally don't give credit for a flush if you bet it, at least not at low stakes (in my experience, obv), and so it makes it a little less suspect, IMO. If he has two pair, he'll generally call a small turn bet, often not even thinking about the river to come. If he has a pair and a flush draw, a similar outcome is fairly likely. A set, of course, will either call/raise, but that's a very small part of his range. To be honest, a call OOP and then a check-call on a crappy board indicates he's either a bit of a calling station noob (with a crappy starting range OOP, incidentally, if he doesn't have much here), or has a hand very unlikely to connect on the river anyway.

I'm not sure if that made any sense, but I think generally you should put a bet in on the turn, just to make the river value-bet more irresistible.

Generally, at low stakes=betbetbet IMO, but I suppose you saw him fold the turn and said he should have checked?

Phatman wrote:


Agreed in hindsight again. My problem is not knowing how to deal with donks. I can predict the play of a reasonable player, but complete donks just can't throw away their cards and have a nasty habit of sucking out.

The actually outcome is irrelevant, I think. How many blinds did everyone at the table have? How many until the prizes started? I just don't think you can fold pre, as you have so little. But don't try the super-trap-hidden-trap thing you said, just shove or fold (if you're a wimp )

Nova wrote:I suppose you saw him fold the turn and said he should have checked?

No, they started this debate whilst the hand was still in progress, even before I had clicked a button on the turn. I can see the merits of both plays and flip-flopped a couple of times before deciding what to do.

Drumstick wrote:

Nova wrote:I suppose you saw him fold the turn and said he should have checked?

No, they started this debate whilst the hand was still in progress, even before I had clicked a button on the turn. I can see the merits of both plays and flip-flopped a couple of times before deciding what to do.

Ah ok, fair enough.

Nova wrote:I think, generally this play misses out on value. Players generally don't give credit for a flush if you bet it, at least not at low stakes (in my experience, obv), and so it makes it a little less suspect, IMO.

He might not give us credit for a flush I agree. But after raising preflop and betting both the flop and turn he's probably going to give us credit for something given we'll have put over a third of our chips in the pot.

Nova wrote:If he has two pair, he'll generally call a small turn bet, often not even thinking about the river to come. If he has a pair and a flush draw, a similar outcome is fairly likely. A set, of course, will either call/raise, but that's a very small part of his range.

So we agree that the majority of his range is going to be weak one pair hands then. Given that a large percentage of the time if we bet the turn and he calls, any river bet will be all-in from us, which he cannot call considering his weak range.

Nova wrote:To be honest, a call OOP and then a check-call on a crappy board indicates he's either a bit of a calling station noob (with a crappy starting range OOP, incidentally, if he doesn't have much here), or has a hand very unlikely to connect on the river anyway.

I'm not sure if that made any sense, but I think generally you should put a bet in on the turn, just to make the river value-bet more irresistible.

Generally, at low stakes=betbetbet IMO, but I suppose you saw him fold the turn and said he should have checked?

He's unlikely to hit on the river yeah, so he can probably call a bet on a blank river in the hope we're bluffing w/overs or something crappy he beats. Or he could hit his draw on the river and may even lead into us, but will certainly call a bet.

I understand your reasoning that he'll get good odds on the river if he calls the turn bet, but I think the times he calls a turn bet are so tiny it's not the most +EV move. If he'd shown any aggression whatsoever in the hand I'd be much more inclined to bet, but a bet in this situation against a guy who appears to be holding a weak hand will only further serve to make his hand look weak and make him fold.

Nova wrote:If he has two pair, he'll generally call a small turn bet, often not even thinking about the river to come. If he has a pair and a flush draw, a similar outcome is fairly likely. A set, of course, will either call/raise, but that's a very small part of his range.

So we agree that the majority of his range is going to be weak one pair hands then. Given that a large percentage of the time if we bet the turn and he calls, any river bet will be all-in from us, which he cannot call considering his weak range.

I didn't say the majority of his range was one pair hands, tbh. What small pairs do you think he's going to have here? Especially considering that you have one blocker to top pair, perhaps the most likely weak pair he could have, in fact. I'm not giving him a 4,5 or 6 anyway if he's a decent player playing OOP, and if he's awful I certainly don't think he folds to a small half pot bet on the turn if he has, say, A6. What else do you think he's calling with pre? That board is, for the most part, only getting played on by draws, IMO.

I don't think his play suggests he is any good anyway (especially if he check calls with A6 then folds turn - what's he even doing in the pot with that hand to start with if he insta-folds turn? - If he did, of course, I don't know), so I think you are giving him too much credit to think that he is thinking consciously about how many of your chips you are putting in on the turn. A reasonably small bet should keep him on the come if he's drawing and bloat the pot, and make him fold any hand you're (rarely) going to get value from on the river.

I'd have to say that usually hoping for a river call after checking the turn normally leads to less money made in these spots, although it may work fine is select examples. He's hardly going to splash around on the river bluff catching with A5 if he's going to fold the turn, IMO. Not enough, anyway.

Still, opinions and all that.

Nova wrote:

Nova wrote:If he has two pair, he'll generally call a small turn bet.

Nova wrote:

[quote"Nova]What else do you think he's calling with pre? That board is, for the most part, only getting played on by draws, IMO.

A reasonably small bet should keep him on the come if he's drawing and bloat the pot, and make him fold any hand you're (rarely) going to get value from on the river.

I'd have to say that usually hoping for a river call after checking the turn normally leads to less money made in these spots,

Red Devil wrote:Bet again? What's he calling with on the flop that he can't call on the turn?

THIS.

Well I disagree that you'll make less money by giving the opposition the chance to catch up. I'm confident I'm right and obviously you are too, so whatever.

Here's a hand I played earlier, I'd like you guys to share your thoughts on what I should do. CO is bad aggro, BB seems tight, I've not been at the table too long so that's all the reads I've got.

Poker Stars $4.00+$0.40 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t75/t150 Blinds - 7 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BTN: t3890 25.93 BBs
SB: t1590 10.60 BBs
BB: t2155 14.37 BBs
UTG: t13665 91.10 BBs
Hero (UTG+1): t5827 38.85 BBs
MP: t5660 37.73 BBs
CO: t3055 20.37 BBs

Pre Flop: (t225) Hero is UTG+1 with 2 A
UTG calls t150, Hero calls t150, 1 fold, CO raises to t300, 2 folds, BB calls t150, UTG calls t150, Hero calls t150

Flop: (t1275) 9 2 8 (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, CO bets t300, BB raises to t1855 all in, UTG calls t1855, Hero ????

I think it depends on how much gamble you have IMO. If you want to continue in the hand I think it's best to shove, you're drawing to the nuts and probably 40% or better in the spot even if the UTG calls a shove (which he will have odds to). If you win you will have a monster stack, but at the same time you only have 300 committed to this pot so folding isn't bad either.

This isn't all that long into the tournament, is it, at 75/150? I think you can probably make the call here. Unless you're against 8s or 9s you're in great shape considering how many people are in the pot. It's a tough spot though, but I'd be tempted to take the pot odds at this stage in the tourney. I could be wrong, though. Would probably find myself with the big stack having 9s and the rest all having spade draws

EDIT: By 'make the call' I mean get all in, I guess.

I'd probably shove and hope the UTG calls. As long as you beat him then you'll get a load of chips even if the BB wins the hand.

Surely the fact UTG's just called is telling you that he has a big hand? Some like to epically slow play their big hands so wouldn't be surprised if he had an overpair at least.