Politics discussion: on the alt-right and their relationship to the recent shooting in NZ

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Minty14
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PostRe: Politics discussion: on the alt-right and their relationship to the recent shooting in NZ
by Minty14 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:21 am

Karl wrote:Boogie retweeted this:

I see, people who discuss the possible role of Internet alt-right personalities in the radicalisation of a racist terrorist, are just as bad as a racist terrorist.

Thanks Boogie very cool

Some massive brained centerism right there.

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PostRe: Politics discussion: on the alt-right and their relationship to the recent shooting in NZ
by Photek » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:23 am

Rex Kramer wrote:
Photek wrote:
Rex Kramer wrote:
Photek wrote:3:21 in and 2 thoughts:

1 - Some good points (I was hoping for some actual clips of PDP tho)

2 - This bomber dude is very hard to listen to, he'd be better off not coming across like a complete twat, he undermines his good points with pointless personal attacks that have nothing to do with anything.

I'll continue.

Why?

I've edited my post, he was meming, as in he was acting like a twat on purpose, so kindly do one.

My assumption was you were watching something related to last night (the manifesto thing or something else), my mistake.

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PostRe: Politics discussion: on the alt-right and their relationship to the recent shooting in NZ
by jawafour » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:35 am

A truly shocking event in New Zealand.

I do wonder if "the internet" (web sites, forums, social media channels) has developed into something completely unmanageable in terms of the possible influence and impact that it can have. It's a wonderful initiative with so much potential and yet it could be said that it is a driving factor in many of the destructive outcomes happening in the world. Messages from preachers of hate can find a home with ill, lost and disaffected people worldwide. Manipulative people of bad intention have a method of creating direct pathway to others and it is hard to close down these internet-based channels effectively.

I am very reticent to think that government control of the internet would be a good thing but, in recognising that many people are manipulating others through those channels right now, it does make me think that could be an outcome. As the global population increases and technology becomes more accessible, are we reaching a moment when we have to review how communication takes place?

I'm conscious that this sounds like I'm suggesting some sort of "Big Brother" scenario. I don't want that but, in the face of attacks and killings brought about by exploitation and suggestion through electronic channels, it's tough to think of alternatives.

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PostRe: Politics discussion: on the alt-right and their relationship to the recent shooting in NZ
by Tafdolphin » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:39 am

jawafour wrote:I am very reticent to think that government control of the internet would be a good thing but, in recognising that many people are manipulating others through those channels right now, it does make me think that could be an outcome. As the global population increases and technology becomes more accessible, are we reaching a moment when we have to review how communication takes place?


My opinion is less that governments should take a stronger role in regulating the nebulous idea of the thing that is 'the internet' and more that the companies and platforms helping (actually helping in some cases such as twitter) to distribute this gooseberry fool need to either step the strawberry float up or be themselves subject to regulation.

Of course, the issue is regulation by who? I don't trust any western government as far as I could strawberry floating throw them, especially not with the responsible regulation of big business, so we're back to square one of wishing someone, anyone would step up to stop all this whilst actively acknowledging it's never going to happen and the world is strawberry floated.

Last edited by Tafdolphin on Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostRe: Politics discussion: on the alt-right and their relationship to the recent shooting in NZ
by OrangeRKN » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:42 am

jawafour wrote:Manipulative people of bad intention have a method of creating direct pathway to others and it is hard to close down these internet-based channels effectively.


These people aren't creating direct pathways though. When they do, for example in establishing their own websites, the reach is relatively small. These people are broadcasting over social media, through huge third-party companies, and so it should be relatively easy for them to be deplatformed, massively reducing their impact. The main issue is in technology companies' reticence in being held accountable for the content they choose to host.

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PostRe: Politics discussion: on the alt-right and their relationship to the recent shooting in NZ
by Moggy » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:43 am

I am so glad that I only use YouTube for music videos, comedy clips, Momo and occasionally episodes of Peppa Pig for my son.

So many of the YouTube personalities just seem like awful human beings, one of the advantages of being old is I have no idea who most of them are.

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captain red dog
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PostRe: Politics discussion: on the alt-right and their relationship to the recent shooting in NZ
by captain red dog » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:44 am

jawafour wrote:A truly shocking event in New Zealand.

I do wonder if "the internet" (web sites, forums, social media channels) has developed into something completely unmanageable in terms of the possible influence and impact that it can have. It's a wonderful initiative with so much potential and yet it could be said that it is a driving factor in many of the destructive outcomes happening in the world. Messages from preachers of hate can find a home with ill, lost and disaffected people worldwide. Manipulative people of bad intention have a method of creating direct pathway to others and it is hard to close down these internet-based channels effectively.

I am very reticent to think that government control of the internet would be a good thing but, in recognising that many people are manipulating others through those channels right now, it does make me think that could be an outcome. As the global population increases and technology becomes more accessible, are we reaching a moment when we have to review how communication takes place?

I'm conscious that this sounds like I'm suggesting some sort of "Big Brother" scenario. I don't want that but, in the face of attacks and killings brought about by exploitation and suggestion through electronic channels, it's tough to think of alternatives.

I'm in the same boat. Until today I was very anti-internet regulation but there are large online subcultures and a kind of one up manship with this style of shooting that somehow needs to be tackled. I don't think there is an easy answer. It is not as simple as blaming pewdiepie but a massive societal issue of mass communication that I don't think people truly understand the impact of, let alone me.

Regulation is likely impossible, it's societal attitudes that need to change.

I think of things like No Russian in MW2 and I defended it at the time, but in retrospect it looks obscene. To say the response to terrorism is multifaceted is really under selling it.

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PostRe: Politics discussion: on the alt-right and their relationship to the recent shooting in NZ
by Tineash » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:53 am

Government regulation stopped match factory workers dying of phosphorus poisoning, it stopped garment factory workers being locked in and burning to death in a fire, it stopped small children's arms being severed by mechanical looms, it stopped companies polluting rivers so badly that they caught fire.

The regulatory state can deal with social media platforms, if we let it.

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PostRe: Politics discussion: on the alt-right and their relationship to the recent shooting in NZ
by jawafour » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:59 am

OrangeRKN wrote:
jawafour wrote:Manipulative people of bad intention have a method of creating direct pathway to others and it is hard to close down these internet-based channels effectively.


These people aren't creating direct pathways though. When they do, for example in establishing their own websites, the reach is relatively small. These people are broadcasting over social media, through huge third-party companies, and so it should be relatively easy for them to be deplatformed, massively reducing their impact. The main issue is in technology companies' reticence in being held accountable for the content they choose to host.

I feel that the pathways are there, Orange. I agree that my wording perhaps wasn't technically accurate - for most electronic channels, a person needs to actively seek out the path themselves rather than having information arrive in their lap - so perhaps routes would be a better term. Once people discover and venture off on a 'bad" route, they can quickly be encouraged and convinced by other smart-but-evil people.

And, yes, I too feel that some of the giant social media companies have been slow, and perhaps even irresponsible, in the minimalist action they have taken to stop people of evil intention using their platforms as channels to gather others into their groups. It is challenging, though; I'm not going to stick up for the (lack of) action by companies like Facebook, but who should define what is a "bad" message and how does this contrast against the freedoms people expect? It's a hugely difficult balance to make.

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PostRe: Politics discussion: on the alt-right and their relationship to the recent shooting in NZ
by OrangeRKN » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:32 pm

captain red dog wrote:Regulation is likely impossible, it's societal attitudes that need to change.


In what way is regulation impossible, any more than with any other industry?

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PostRe: Politics discussion: on the alt-right and their relationship to the recent shooting in NZ
by Cuttooth » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:36 pm

Preezy wrote:I do think though that you need a big dose of mental illness to cross the line from embedding yourself into the alt-right mindset and actually picking up an assault rifle and shooting people. That's not to say the rhetoric isn't a factor, but the mental state of the person is the largest factor in this whole sorry mess.

This isn't a 'lone wolf' terrorist attack, it's a group of people inspired by unchallenged or weakly challenged rhetoric of hatred.

We need to understand why it goes unchallenged.

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PostRe: Politics discussion: on the alt-right and their relationship to the recent shooting in NZ
by Trelliz » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:41 pm

jawafour wrote: - for most electronic channels, a person needs to actively seek out the path themselves rather than having information arrive in their lap - so perhaps routes would be a better term. Once people discover and venture off on a 'bad" route, they can quickly be encouraged and convinced by other smart-but-evil people.


I'd argue that after a slight nudge in a given direction facebook will quickly and in an uncaring, algorithmic way shovel more of the same and worse towards you, reinforcing and multiplying it.

I have come to loathe the overwhelming majority of youtube "personalities", social media, videogames and all this other cultural acceleration towards whatever the alt-right internet...thing is. This bizarre mixture of conspiracies, racism, anti-semitism, memes etc with a coating of razer headphones, dx racer chairs and 'use my voucher for 10% off, like and subscribe' just boils my piss for reasons i can't quite quantify yet.

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PostRe: Politics discussion: on the alt-right and their relationship to the recent shooting in NZ
by jawafour » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:55 pm

Trelliz wrote:...I have come to loathe the overwhelming majority of youtube "personalities", social media, videogames and all this other cultural acceleration towards whatever the alt-right internet...thing is. This bizarre mixture of conspiracies, racism, anti-semitism, memes etc with a coating of razer headphones, dx racer chairs and 'use my voucher for 10% off, like and subscribe' just boils my piss for reasons i can't quite quantify yet.

I'd not really thought about that aspect, Trelliz... but, yes, I feel that I agree. Connecting to the internet now usually results in an instant feed of horrific news and desperate situations mixed with a huge range of viewpoints against a backdrop of in-your-face advertising. If we're looking at this on a pretty consistent basis, it must have some impact on our thoughts and attitudes.

For clarity, I'm not saying that we shouldn't be aware of bad events nor ignore them; I was just recognising Trelliz' point about the mix and presentation of the content that we see.

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PostRe: Politics discussion: on the alt-right and their relationship to the recent shooting in NZ
by Moggy » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:56 pm

Tineash wrote:Government regulation stopped match factory workers dying of phosphorus poisoning, it stopped garment factory workers being locked in and burning to death in a fire, it stopped small children's arms being severed by mechanical looms, it stopped companies polluting rivers so badly that they caught fire.

The regulatory state can deal with social media platforms, if we let it.


While I agree with you, it would take a lot more than just our government to legislate. We need the US government to legislate in order to stop Facebook, YouTube and Twitter allowing extremists. And the US will not ever do it, the guarantee of freedom of speech in the constitution will stop it.

The only thing the UK government or the EU could do is block the social media platforms, otherwise YouTube will just say “yeah it’s bad but it was an American broadcasting from Florida, what can we do?”.

It would be great if the social media platforms themselves rooted out and stopped hatred spreading, but they don’t give a gooseberry fool and never will give gooseberry fool.

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PostRe: Politics discussion: on the alt-right and their relationship to the recent shooting in NZ
by OrangeRKN » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:05 pm

So what you're saying Moggy is that we need to band together with other like-minded countries (perhaps in Europe, they're close by) and form some sort of legislative group that can rival the US in influence???

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PostRe: Politics discussion: on the alt-right and their relationship to the recent shooting in NZ
by Moggy » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:07 pm

OrangeRKN wrote:So what you're saying Moggy is that we need to band together with other like-minded countries (perhaps in Europe, they're close by) and form some sort of legislative group that can rival the US in influence???


:lol:

Actually I don’t think that would work in this case. YouTube would remain in the US, owned by a US company and would follow US law. The UK/EU could block it or demand certain content be blocked in the UK/EU but this stuff would still get through and YouTube would continue ignoring most of the bile that is on its platform.

What we need to do is take back the colonies and make America part of the empire again.

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PostRe: Politics discussion: on the alt-right and their relationship to the recent shooting in NZ
by Sandy » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:29 pm

Reported for being RichardUK's alt account.

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PostRe: Politics discussion: on the alt-right and their relationship to the recent shooting in NZ
by Moggy » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:30 pm



When Facebook and The Sun meet :dread:

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PostRe: Politics discussion: on the alt-right and their relationship to the recent shooting in NZ
by Mafro » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:43 pm

Are PewDiePie fanboys always this much in denial whenever the alt-right stuff is brought up? It's pretty sad.

Photek wrote:3:21 in and 2 thoughts:

1 - Some good points (I was hoping for some actual clips of PDP tho)

2 - This bomber dude is very hard to listen to, he'd be better off not coming across like a complete twat, he undermines his good points with pointless personal attacks that have nothing to do with anything.

I'll continue.

EDIT: he was meming...

Well that was short...which was based on the jew joke he used several times. Can't say I'm convinced yet, ill research more over the weekend.

No you won't :lol:

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PostRe: Politics discussion: on the alt-right and their relationship to the recent shooting in NZ
by Gemini73 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:12 pm

Tafdolphin wrote:
Tineash wrote:Let's remember the real victims here


Because of strawberry floating course.

Tineash wrote:

you missed the best one


And this is classic shitlord rhetoric, and something used by our very own Captain Red Dog in the other thread: "How dare you assume I didn't think something merely because I prioritised some meaningless gooseberry fool over actually saying it? How very dare you? Who's the real monster now HMMMMM?!?!"


Good old internet "celebrities". Taking a terrible tragedy and somehow making it all about them.


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