Politics Thread 5

[Tineash]

I didn't read the study but I'm serenely confident it says the thing I already believed

I am very smart

[Samuel_1]

Which came first - Corbyn being a bit useless or the media telling me he's a bit useless?

All of this talk is pointless, he's not winning an election, end of story. Whether that's because the media have sold the narrative to the majority or not is irrelevant, he's where he is and Labour aren't winning with him in charge. That leaves two options, ditch him and maybe win or sit bemoaning the inequality of it all in opposition.

I'm not so sure about this. If you look at the last election the prediction was a landslide, however, as we all know the Tories lost their majority Labour won a large portion of the vote. The Brexit party will probably take a lot more votes form the Tories than they do from Labour, so they could gain seats there. It could be argued that the Lib Dems will take remain votes from Labour, but if this points to a Labour/Lib Dem coalition, I could live with that, even though the new Lid Dem leader does seem to be to the right of centre.

[Hexx]

I didn't read the study but I'm serenely confident it says the thing I already believed

I answered I'd read the article he asked if I had, because he said it proved something it didn't, and something I hadn't said

How timely

twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1153597199714004992

[Samuel_1]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/23/jo-swinson-rules-out-lib-dem-pact-with-labour-under-jeremy-corbyn

o Swinson, the new Lib Dem leader, has again ruled out working with Jeremy Corbyn, branding him a Brexiter who cannot be trusted to fight for a second referendum to keep the UK in the EU.

She said her door was open to MPs from other parties who wanted to work towards a second referendum.

But she said the Lib Dems could not join a pact with Labour while Corbyn was leader, even in the event of a hung parliament.

Speaking on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme, Swinson was scathing about Labour’s Brexit approach, even though the party has now said it would support a referendum on any deal put forward.

“There is nothing to suggest Jeremy Corbyn can be trusted on Brexit or that he will campaign to remain. Let’s remember in the last referendum he went on holiday for two weeks in the middle of it. Forgive me for not believing Jeremy Corbyn’s newly mouthed words on Brexit. He can barely bring himself to say the words people’s vote,” she said.

“I’m not supporting Jeremy Corbyn. If we are to have an election I would fight as Lib Dem leader as the party of remain that hasn’t equivocated on this like Jeremy Corbyn.

“There are plenty of people in the Labour party that I can work with, that I do work with. But Jeremy Corbyn is a Brexiteer. He cannot be trusted on Brexit. That is abundantly clear.

“And to boot he is somebody that is failing to deal with the scourge of antisemitism in his own party.”

Swinson said she was talking to some Conservative MPs about the possibility of defecting to her party after recruiting Chuka Umunna from Labour and Heidi Allen from the Tories via the Independent group. “Our door is absolutely open to people who share our values,” she said.

Since her election by Lib Dem members on Monday, Swinson has come under fire for her role in the coalition government as a minister voting for austerity measures and bringing in controversial policies such as employment tribunal fees.

Well, that throws what I just said out of the water. It also confirms, to me at least, her right wing position.

[Tineash]

I didn't read the study but I'm serenely confident it says the thing I already believed

I answered I'd read the article he asked if I had, because he said it proved something it didn't, and something I hadn't said

How timely

twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1153597199714004992

If you're not alienating and outraging twerps like Dunt, what good are you?

[Moggy]

Do you think they could have been a factor in the forming of your opinion, genuine question? If this is not not the case for you, do you not think it could be the case for many others? I have issues with the handling of AS and Brexit, but I think things are slowly getting better with those. There are also so many other issues at stake that make me support Corbyn. Considering the Herculean efforts the press have made to discredit the man, do you not think that his continued leadership shows a certain strength? He has also managed to keep the membership numbers stable under such circumstances. As I have said, I would accept another leader who continues with the efforts to fulfill the manifesto pledges, what worries me is that they would attacked in much the same way and the same criticisms would be levelled at them.

Of course the media will have some influence. I never claimed it didn’t, despite what Tineash tries to portray.

But you are onto a loser if you just assume that the media has brainwashed everybody and that’s why they don’t like Corbyn.

Has the media been a factor in your opinions? You agree that anti-semitism was handled badly, you agree that Brexit has been handled badly and you would accept a different leader. Our positions are not so very different, but you instantly jumped to “the media bias worked in your case!” when I questioned Corbyn?

I would imagine any future Labour will be attacked in the same way. Most leaders are, especially when they are heading up a left wing party in a country dominated by a right wing media. I’d agree Corbyn has probably had it worse than most Labour leaders, but I also think he bloody well deserves a lot of it.

[Hexx]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/23/jo-swinson-rules-out-lib-dem-pact-with-labour-under-jeremy-corbyn

Jo Swinson, the new Lib Dem leader, has again ruled out working with Jeremy Corbyn, branding him a Brexiter who cannot be trusted to fight for a second referendum to keep the UK in the EU.

She said her door was open to MPs from other parties who wanted to work towards a second referendum.

But she said the Lib Dems could not join a pact with Labour while Corbyn was leader, even in the event of a hung parliament.

Speaking on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme, Swinson was scathing about Labour’s Brexit approach, even though the party has now said it would support a referendum on any deal put forward.

“There is nothing to suggest Jeremy Corbyn can be trusted on Brexit or that he will campaign to remain. Let’s remember in the last referendum he went on holiday for two weeks in the middle of it. Forgive me for not believing Jeremy Corbyn’s newly mouthed words on Brexit. He can barely bring himself to say the words people’s vote,” she said.

“I’m not supporting Jeremy Corbyn. If we are to have an election I would fight as Lib Dem leader as the party of remain that hasn’t equivocated on this like Jeremy Corbyn.

“There are plenty of people in the Labour party that I can work with, that I do work with. But Jeremy Corbyn is a Brexiteer. He cannot be trusted on Brexit. That is abundantly clear.

“And to boot he is somebody that is failing to deal with the scourge of antisemitism in his own party.”

Swinson said she was talking to some Conservative MPs about the possibility of defecting to her party after recruiting Chuka Umunna from Labour and Heidi Allen from the Tories via the Independent group. “Our door is absolutely open to people who share our values,” she said.

Since her election by Lib Dem members on Monday, Swinson has come under fire for her role in the coalition government as a minister voting for austerity measures and bringing in controversial policies such as employment tribunal fees.

Well, that throws what I just said out of the water. It also confirms, to me at least, her right wing position.

Oh she's definitely center-right-wing (and not that much in the center, certainly on economics).

IIRC she's been very defensive about the coalition. (Largely presenting it as a pragmatic price to be paid for some wins)

But she's got a powerful, clear message on a pressing concern of the day - and I think she'll get support because of that.

Might have to hope the Green's temper some of her elements in a electoral pact

[That]

I don't necessarily agree with the details of the internal Labour complaints policy, but the level of national attention it's received for years over and above the rise of a hardcore ethnonationalist far-right has been disproportionate in the extreme. It's true Corbyn hasn't done much to help himself, however I think that there is a centrist need to prove "both sides are as bad as eachother" and this would come through one way or another in the media narrative. There will always be someone affiliated with Labour saying something awful because the party has a lot of members, but that clearly isn't the backbone of the membership and it isn't being borne out in party policy. The coverage doesn't fairly reflect that. I'm not exonerating them, I'm sure they do need to review their procedures, but the narrative won't go away even if they do because it's essentially centrist agitprop. The right are so nakedly evil at the moment that centrists need a story like this to justify not picking a side. If it wasn't this, they would still find or create something.

I also don't really like how Corbyn is portrayed as a far-leftist when he is at best a democratic socialist and his manifesto is lukewarm centre-left social democrat stuff by any objective standard. It really shows how far the country has shifted rightward and how effective liberal capitalist propaganda has been. There are nationalised railways and suchlike all across Europe, it's not going to result in bread-lines or the gulag.

I do feel they should take a stronger and more principled stance against Brexit, they should admit the obvious (there's no good deal to be had) and act accordingly. I get Corbyn wants to reflect working-class communities who lean Brexit, but that shouldn't extend to actively harming them; that isn't fair representation, it's a capitulation to a far-right who want to stomp on the face of those communities and who have sadly convinced some of them it's a good thing. Some socialists seem to want them to get stomped to "wake up" but I don't think they'll respond that way, they're more likely to double-down on ethnonationalism if the left doesn't fight for them now.

If I could shake Corbyn and get that into his head I would like him a lot more, I find him a bit frustrating right now.

Anyway I'm not a member of the Labour Party and I tend to vote Green unless it's a close seat and I have to vote tactically, so I don't think I am a, uh, "cultist" but let's see.

[Samuel_1]

Do you think they could have been a factor in the forming of your opinion, genuine question? If this is not not the case for you, do you not think it could be the case for many others? I have issues with the handling of AS and Brexit, but I think things are slowly getting better with those. There are also so many other issues at stake that make me support Corbyn. Considering the Herculean efforts the press have made to discredit the man, do you not think that his continued leadership shows a certain strength? He has also managed to keep the membership numbers stable under such circumstances. As I have said, I would accept another leader who continues with the efforts to fulfill the manifesto pledges, what worries me is that they would attacked in much the same way and the same criticisms would be levelled at them.

Of course the media will have some influence. I never claimed it didn’t, despite what Tineash tries to portray.

But you are onto a loser if you just assume that the media has brainwashed everybody and that’s why they don’t like Corbyn.

Has the media been a factor in your opinions? You agree that anti-semitism was handled badly, you agree that Brexit has been handled badly and you would accept a different leader. Our positions are not so very different, but you instantly jumped to “the media bias worked in your case!” when I questioned Corbyn?

I would imagine any future Labour will be attacked in the same way. Most leaders are, especially when they are heading up a left wing party in a country dominated by a right wing media. I’d agree Corbyn has probably had it worse than most Labour leaders, but I also think he bloody well deserves a lot of it.

Fair enough. I don't think the media have brain washed everyone in regards to Corbyn, but I do absolutely believe that they have done a very good job of effecting many people's opinions. Is the answer for Corbyn just to give up, or to try and improve on the aspects of his premiership that we both find troubling? It seems that you favour the former and I the latter. I do think there are improvements being made, so I still have some faith.

Just for reference:

The struggle for liberation of all people is never complete and must always be renewed. As a movement, we educate ourselves and each other to better stand in solidarity with and unite all those facing oppression and discrimination.


That's why we are launching education materials for our members and supporters to help them confront bigotry, wherever it arises. Over the coming months, the party will produce educational materials on a number of specific forms of racism and bigotry. Our first materials are on antisemitism, recognising that anti-Jewish bigotry has reared its head in our movement.

Browse our new antisemitism minisite
Read our new leaflet on antisemitism

Hatred towards Jewish people is rising in many parts of the world. Our party is not immune from that poison – and we must drive it out from our movement.


While other political parties and some of the media exaggerate and distort the scale of the problem in our party, we must face up to the unsettling truth that a small number of Labour members hold antisemitic views and a larger number don't recognise antisemitic stereotypes and conspiracy theories.


The evidence is clear enough. The worst cases of antisemitism in our party have included Holocaust denial, crude Jewish-banker stereotypes, conspiracy theories blaming Israel for 9/11 or every war on the Rothschild family, and even one member who appeared to believe that Hitler had been misunderstood.


So please engage with the materials we are producing, which will be placed on a page on our website, along with other resources, so our movement can be the strongest anti-racist force in our country.


I have learned so much, I hope you will too, so that together we can fight these evils.


In solidarity,

JC

[Moggy]

Fair enough. I don't think the media have brain washed everyone in regards to Corbyn, but I do absolutely believe that they have done a very good job of effecting many people's opinions. Is the answer for Corbyn just to give up, or to try and improve on the aspects of his premiership that we both find troubling? It seems that you favour the former and I the latter. I do think there are improvements being made, so I still have some faith.

I don’t think he is likely to change his mind on the biggest issue. He might give in to his party/the public on the issue but I don’t believe he will suddenly have the European flag tattooed on his chest and turn up to Westminster humming Ode to Joy.

I had very few problems with the last Labour manifesto, if I believe that voting Labour is the best chance we have of remaining, then I will vote for them. But I don’t believe that at the moment and I don’t expect to start believing it any time soon.

[Hexx]

Is the answer for Corbyn just to give up, or to try and improve on the aspects of his premiership that we both find troubling?

The ideal answer is the latter. But observing behavior over the last 4 years, why would anyone have any faith that could happen?

Corbyn (and his advisers) seem incapable of change or learning without a great deal of pressure being put on them. It's what happens when you spend 25+ years thinking you're right about everything

The Magic Grandad is not for turning

I mean you don't feel this way - but imagine you're someone who thinks Brexit is the most pressing concern? Why would you trust the guy that after prevaricating and doing everything possible to avoid the motion agreed at conference had to be dragged kicking and screaming at the 11th hour to a position even in the same postcode as sensible? Swinsons nailed her message there.

[Garth]

twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1153608670946779137

[Lagamorph]

Boris can't even be bothered to turn up to the result announcement on time.

[BID0]

Green Party latest on Unite to Remain:

Last week, we asked, via an online survey, the views of Green Party members on electoral co-operation with other parties in any general election.
Your response rate was astounding. Almost 5,000 members registered their views. Thank you to everyone who took part.

The results showed very high levels of support for considering electoral co-operation under the current circumstances where the first past the post voting system can prevent parliament reflecting the views of the people.

Such co-operation has already been clearly supported by conference when the issue of co-operation is a fair voting system that makes the UK a democracy.

Responding to the survey results, and to ensure that we can potentially put into practice the views that members expressed, a draft motion to autumn conference has been put on the pre-agenda forum (the first step for taking it to conference).

They will be taken on board when the motion for the first agenda of conference is written (deadline 1 August).

The draft motion suggests that the governing bodies of the Party should not originate or initiate proposals for co-operation but that they may, in exceptional circumstances, consider such arrangements proposed by others if the following conditions are met:

• If it would lead immediately to a significant increase in the number of Green Party MPs, and
• If the goals of any co-operation include changing the electoral system to one with proportional representation before any further elections are held, and
• If any additional strategic goals of any co-operation do not contradict our core values, but do further our aims to achieve environmental and social justice.

In addition, in terms of process:

• Any negotiation must be carried out only with the widest possible genuine consultation and engagement with members about any specific terms, and
• Decisions about any broad agreements will be made by Conference motions where timing allows, or by the appropriate governing body (GPRC or Council and WGPC) between conferences, and
• Any proposals and processes followed must recognise and respect the right of local parties to have the final say over who stands, and on what terms, in any individual constituency.

The motion is an initial draft and decisions on final wording will lie with you the members, as always at conference.
Please take part in the discussion, and on any of the other motions being proposed by members like you on the forum, too. This is the party democracy we are proud of in action!

Meanwhile we will continue to prepare for a snap general election and ask any local party that has not selected candidates to do so as soon as possible.

With very best wishes,

Siân and Jonathan
Green Party Co-Leaders

[Moggy]

Boris can't even be bothered to turn up to the result announcement on time.

Is that the reason for the delay?

He is such a useless gooseberry fool.

[Hexx]

Can we be kinder to the next prime minister than we have been to the current prime minister?

A bit bold to say that when you're about to announce of of the chief backstabber/gooseberry fool stirrers as next PM

[Hexx]

Boris Johnson: 92,153

Jeremy Hunt: 46,656

[Hexx]

We are so strawberry floated

[JediDragon05]

[Lagamorph]

I'm both dreading and massively looking forward to seeing his Cabinet picks.