Re: Politics Thread 5
Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:56 am
Tineash wrote:I didn't read the study but I'm serenely confident it says the thing I already believed
I am very smart
Tineash wrote:I didn't read the study but I'm serenely confident it says the thing I already believed
Rex Kramer wrote:Which came first - Corbyn being a bit useless or the media telling me he's a bit useless?
All of this talk is pointless, he's not winning an election, end of story. Whether that's because the media have sold the narrative to the majority or not is irrelevant, he's where he is and Labour aren't winning with him in charge. That leaves two options, ditch him and maybe win or sit bemoaning the inequality of it all in opposition.
Tineash wrote:I didn't read the study but I'm serenely confident it says the thing I already believed
Hexx wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/23/jo-swinson-rules-out-lib-dem-pact-with-labour-under-jeremy-corbyno Swinson, the new Lib Dem leader, has again ruled out working with Jeremy Corbyn, branding him a Brexiter who cannot be trusted to fight for a second referendum to keep the UK in the EU.
She said her door was open to MPs from other parties who wanted to work towards a second referendum.
But she said the Lib Dems could not join a pact with Labour while Corbyn was leader, even in the event of a hung parliament.
Speaking on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme, Swinson was scathing about Labour’s Brexit approach, even though the party has now said it would support a referendum on any deal put forward.
“There is nothing to suggest Jeremy Corbyn can be trusted on Brexit or that he will campaign to remain. Let’s remember in the last referendum he went on holiday for two weeks in the middle of it. Forgive me for not believing Jeremy Corbyn’s newly mouthed words on Brexit. He can barely bring himself to say the words people’s vote,” she said.
“I’m not supporting Jeremy Corbyn. If we are to have an election I would fight as Lib Dem leader as the party of remain that hasn’t equivocated on this like Jeremy Corbyn.
“There are plenty of people in the Labour party that I can work with, that I do work with. But Jeremy Corbyn is a Brexiteer. He cannot be trusted on Brexit. That is abundantly clear.
“And to boot he is somebody that is failing to deal with the scourge of antisemitism in his own party.”
Swinson said she was talking to some Conservative MPs about the possibility of defecting to her party after recruiting Chuka Umunna from Labour and Heidi Allen from the Tories via the Independent group. “Our door is absolutely open to people who share our values,” she said.
Since her election by Lib Dem members on Monday, Swinson has come under fire for her role in the coalition government as a minister voting for austerity measures and bringing in controversial policies such as employment tribunal fees.
Hexx wrote:Tineash wrote:I didn't read the study but I'm serenely confident it says the thing I already believed
I answered I'd read the article he asked if I had, because he said it proved something it didn't, and something I hadn't said
How timely
Samuel_1 wrote:Do you think they could have been a factor in the forming of your opinion, genuine question? If this is not not the case for you, do you not think it could be the case for many others? I have issues with the handling of AS and Brexit, but I think things are slowly getting better with those. There are also so many other issues at stake that make me support Corbyn. Considering the Herculean efforts the press have made to discredit the man, do you not think that his continued leadership shows a certain strength? He has also managed to keep the membership numbers stable under such circumstances. As I have said, I would accept another leader who continues with the efforts to fulfill the manifesto pledges, what worries me is that they would attacked in much the same way and the same criticisms would be levelled at them.
Samuel_1 wrote:Hexx wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/23/jo-swinson-rules-out-lib-dem-pact-with-labour-under-jeremy-corbynJo Swinson, the new Lib Dem leader, has again ruled out working with Jeremy Corbyn, branding him a Brexiter who cannot be trusted to fight for a second referendum to keep the UK in the EU.
She said her door was open to MPs from other parties who wanted to work towards a second referendum.
But she said the Lib Dems could not join a pact with Labour while Corbyn was leader, even in the event of a hung parliament.
Speaking on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme, Swinson was scathing about Labour’s Brexit approach, even though the party has now said it would support a referendum on any deal put forward.
“There is nothing to suggest Jeremy Corbyn can be trusted on Brexit or that he will campaign to remain. Let’s remember in the last referendum he went on holiday for two weeks in the middle of it. Forgive me for not believing Jeremy Corbyn’s newly mouthed words on Brexit. He can barely bring himself to say the words people’s vote,” she said.
“I’m not supporting Jeremy Corbyn. If we are to have an election I would fight as Lib Dem leader as the party of remain that hasn’t equivocated on this like Jeremy Corbyn.
“There are plenty of people in the Labour party that I can work with, that I do work with. But Jeremy Corbyn is a Brexiteer. He cannot be trusted on Brexit. That is abundantly clear.
“And to boot he is somebody that is failing to deal with the scourge of antisemitism in his own party.”
Swinson said she was talking to some Conservative MPs about the possibility of defecting to her party after recruiting Chuka Umunna from Labour and Heidi Allen from the Tories via the Independent group. “Our door is absolutely open to people who share our values,” she said.
Since her election by Lib Dem members on Monday, Swinson has come under fire for her role in the coalition government as a minister voting for austerity measures and bringing in controversial policies such as employment tribunal fees.
Well, that throws what I just said out of the water. It also confirms, to me at least, her right wing position.
Moggy wrote:Samuel_1 wrote:Do you think they could have been a factor in the forming of your opinion, genuine question? If this is not not the case for you, do you not think it could be the case for many others? I have issues with the handling of AS and Brexit, but I think things are slowly getting better with those. There are also so many other issues at stake that make me support Corbyn. Considering the Herculean efforts the press have made to discredit the man, do you not think that his continued leadership shows a certain strength? He has also managed to keep the membership numbers stable under such circumstances. As I have said, I would accept another leader who continues with the efforts to fulfill the manifesto pledges, what worries me is that they would attacked in much the same way and the same criticisms would be levelled at them.
Of course the media will have some influence. I never claimed it didn’t, despite what Tineash tries to portray.
But you are onto a loser if you just assume that the media has brainwashed everybody and that’s why they don’t like Corbyn.
Has the media been a factor in your opinions? You agree that anti-semitism was handled badly, you agree that Brexit has been handled badly and you would accept a different leader. Our positions are not so very different, but you instantly jumped to “the media bias worked in your case!” when I questioned Corbyn?
I would imagine any future Labour will be attacked in the same way. Most leaders are, especially when they are heading up a left wing party in a country dominated by a right wing media. I’d agree Corbyn has probably had it worse than most Labour leaders, but I also think he bloody well deserves a lot of it.
The struggle for liberation of all people is never complete and must always be renewed. As a movement, we educate ourselves and each other to better stand in solidarity with and unite all those facing oppression and discrimination.
That's why we are launching education materials for our members and supporters to help them confront bigotry, wherever it arises. Over the coming months, the party will produce educational materials on a number of specific forms of racism and bigotry. Our first materials are on antisemitism, recognising that anti-Jewish bigotry has reared its head in our movement.
Browse our new antisemitism minisite
Read our new leaflet on antisemitism
Hatred towards Jewish people is rising in many parts of the world. Our party is not immune from that poison – and we must drive it out from our movement.
While other political parties and some of the media exaggerate and distort the scale of the problem in our party, we must face up to the unsettling truth that a small number of Labour members hold antisemitic views and a larger number don't recognise antisemitic stereotypes and conspiracy theories.
The evidence is clear enough. The worst cases of antisemitism in our party have included Holocaust denial, crude Jewish-banker stereotypes, conspiracy theories blaming Israel for 9/11 or every war on the Rothschild family, and even one member who appeared to believe that Hitler had been misunderstood.
So please engage with the materials we are producing, which will be placed on a page on our website, along with other resources, so our movement can be the strongest anti-racist force in our country.
I have learned so much, I hope you will too, so that together we can fight these evils.
In solidarity,
JC
Samuel_1 wrote:Fair enough. I don't think the media have brain washed everyone in regards to Corbyn, but I do absolutely believe that they have done a very good job of effecting many people's opinions. Is the answer for Corbyn just to give up, or to try and improve on the aspects of his premiership that we both find troubling? It seems that you favour the former and I the latter. I do think there are improvements being made, so I still have some faith.
Samuel_1 wrote:Is the answer for Corbyn just to give up, or to try and improve on the aspects of his premiership that we both find troubling?
Last week, we asked, via an online survey, the views of Green Party members on electoral co-operation with other parties in any general election.
Your response rate was astounding. Almost 5,000 members registered their views. Thank you to everyone who took part.
The results showed very high levels of support for considering electoral co-operation under the current circumstances where the first past the post voting system can prevent parliament reflecting the views of the people.
Such co-operation has already been clearly supported by conference when the issue of co-operation is a fair voting system that makes the UK a democracy.
Responding to the survey results, and to ensure that we can potentially put into practice the views that members expressed, a draft motion to autumn conference has been put on the pre-agenda forum (the first step for taking it to conference).
They will be taken on board when the motion for the first agenda of conference is written (deadline 1 August).The draft motion suggests that the governing bodies of the Party should not originate or initiate proposals for co-operation but that they may, in exceptional circumstances, consider such arrangements proposed by others if the following conditions are met:
- If it would lead immediately to a significant increase in the number of Green Party MPs, and
- If the goals of any co-operation include changing the electoral system to one with proportional representation before any further elections are held, and
- If any additional strategic goals of any co-operation do not contradict our core values, but do further our aims to achieve environmental and social justice.
In addition, in terms of process:
- Any negotiation must be carried out only with the widest possible genuine consultation and engagement with members about any specific terms, and
- Decisions about any broad agreements will be made by Conference motions where timing allows, or by the appropriate governing body (GPRC or Council and WGPC) between conferences, and
- Any proposals and processes followed must recognise and respect the right of local parties to have the final say over who stands, and on what terms, in any individual constituency.
The motion is an initial draft and decisions on final wording will lie with you the members, as always at conference.
Please take part in the discussion, and on any of the other motions being proposed by members like you on the forum, too. This is the party democracy we are proud of in action!
Meanwhile we will continue to prepare for a snap general election and ask any local party that has not selected candidates to do so as soon as possible.
With very best wishes,
Siân and Jonathan
Green Party Co-Leaders
Lagamorph wrote:Boris can't even be bothered to turn up to the result announcement on time.
Can we be kinder to the next prime minister than we have been to the current prime minister?
Boris Johnson: 92,153
Jeremy Hunt: 46,656