Politics Thread 6

[Meep]

I suspect that if UBI is ever introduced it will just be a means of gutting welfare and redistributing it to the middle-class. This seems to be the motivation behind the main forces backing it, although some seem to have genuinely good intentions.

[Lex-Man]

I suspect that if UBI is ever introduced it will just be a means of gutting welfare and redistributing it to the middle-class. This seems to be the motivation behind the main forces backing it, although some seem to have genuinely good intentions.

How would that happen though?

[That]

I suspect that if UBI is ever introduced it will just be a means of gutting welfare and redistributing it to the middle-class. This seems to be the motivation behind the main forces backing it, although some seem to have genuinely good intentions.

How would that happen though?

Lib Dem government: "No more welfare. Instead, everyone gets £1000 a month."
Radlibs: "Wow! So radical!"
Landlords: "We are raising rent by £1000 a month."
Radlibs: "Well, it is a free market!"

That's how it happens.

[That]

Less glib answer:

I want essentials to be nationalised and free for everyone, so I'm not ideologically tied to UBI.

I think UBI with price controls on essentials is the best way I've heard of to do liberal welfare state stuff. I support it! (To a similar degree that I critically support other socdem compromises.) I think it would certainly be a lot better than what we have now.

UBI without price controls is easily exploitable by the people who profit from essentials, so I'm very sceptical that it would be good for the working class. People who support UBI without controls tend to be right-libertarians and tech bros who aren't actually terribly invested in narrowing the degree of inequality in society, but think it's an "elegant solution" to welfare. (I think in a weird way it scratches some kind of "small government" itch for them...)

[Oblomov Boblomov]

That's how I've always assumed UBI would turn out. I think the market would quickly settle so that UBI provided just about enough to pay rent (on what might be described as an 'affordable' home), buy food and pay very basic utility bills.

I'm pretty sure working class wages would go down, too? Minimum wage jobs that weren't previously minimum wage would flood the market.

I expect the middle classes could expand a little, but at the expense of disproportionate destabilisation of the working classes. The upper classes would profit from the new opportunities made available to them (indirectly) by UBI.

So yeah... I haven't read as much about it as I should and I'm happy to be proved wrong, but at the moment I'm not behind the idea.

[Errkal]

That's how I've always assumed UBI would turn out. I think the market would quickly settle so that UBI provided just about enough to pay rent (on what might be described as an 'affordable' home), buy food and pay very basic utility bills.

I'm pretty sure working class wages would go down, too? Minimum wage jobs that weren't previously minimum wage would flood the market.

I expect the middle classes could expand a little, but at the expense of disproportionate destabilisation of the working classes. The upper classes would profit from the new opportunities made available to them (indirectly) by UBI.

So yeah... I haven't read as much about it as I should and I'm happy to be proved wrong, but at the moment I'm not behind the idea.

I tend to agree there would need to be considerable legislation to prevent employers dropping wages as “well you get the universal as well”.

It would an absolute nightmare to make work in a way that doesn’t let banana split employees avoid paying people properly and landlords etc. jacking up rent as people potentially have more money.

[Moggy]

Caps on rent increases could solve that.

Wages are a different question. Increases to the minimum wage or legislation to stop wage decreases could work. Although UBI might lead to less people needing to work, which could lead to employers having to offer higher wages to attract people.

[Trelliz]

Although UBI might lead to less people needing to work, which could lead to employers having to offer higher wages to attract people.

Combine this with increasing automation of repetitive/menial jobs that people don't want/need to do and it might be a step closer to the kind of post-scarcity utopia that sounds like a good idea, in that companies have to entice people to work for them rather than having people begging for awful positions, however I doubt that will happen, if ever.

[Moggy]

Although UBI might lead to less people needing to work, which could lead to employers having to offer higher wages to attract people.

Combine this with increasing automation of repetitive/menial jobs that people don't want/need to do and it might be a step closer to the kind of post-scarcity utopia that sounds like a good idea, in that companies have to entice people to work for them rather than having people begging for awful positions, however I doubt that will happen, if ever.

Yeah I had a moment of optimism. It could work out great.

But it probably won't.

[coldspice]

Who the strawberry float is Laurence Fox?

[Moggy]

Who the strawberry float is Laurence Fox?

Billie Piper's ex husband.

[coldspice]

Who the strawberry float is Laurence Fox?

Billie Piper's ex husband.

Always promising when you look at someone's twitter profile and get Guido Fawkes, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Darren Grimes and Julia Hartley-Brewer as related suggestions.

[Rex Kramer]

He is the epitome of white privilege, totally talentless but famous family and went to public school. Everything wrong with how this country works.

[Lex-Man]

Who the strawberry float is Laurence Fox?

Billie Piper's ex husband.

Always promising when you look at someone's twitter profile and get Guido Fawkes, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Darren Grimes and Julia Hartley-Brewer as related suggestions.

He's the actor who used to play Lewis. He had a moment in the sun making anti pc comments last year.

[Moggy]

Who the strawberry float is Laurence Fox?

Billie Piper's ex husband.

Always promising when you look at someone's twitter profile and get Guido Fawkes, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Darren Grimes and Julia Hartley-Brewer as related suggestions.

He's the actor who used to play Lewis. He had a moment in the sun making anti pc comments last year.

It's a whole (and successful) career path for some people. Go on Question Time, say banana splitish things, watch the money roll in.

The trick is moderating your comments enough that you don't get sued and chucked off social media - just like how Hopkins strawberry floated up eventually.

Edit:

Just checked, he didn't even play Lewis, he was the sidekick.

[Lex-Man]

He was the side kick to a side kick, that's kind of sad. Your right about the career though although it's not necessary to go on newsnight.

[Moggy]

He was the side kick to a side kick, that's kind of sad. Your right about the career though although it's not necessary to go on newsnight.

It is necessary to go on QT/Newsnight when nobody knows who you are. You need to create a storm, get the lefties attacking you and the righties defending you. Open up some crowdfunders and watch the gammons make you rich.

[Tomous]

He was quite annoying in White Lines on Netflix too

[Errkal]

He was quite annoying in White Lines on Netflix too

He was, was a good show though.

[Moggy]

He was quite annoying in White Lines on Netflix too

Yeah but white lines blow away.