Politics Thread 6

[Moggy]

You've observed? That's not evidence.

Nor is that dreadful article.

This isn't Question Time, you & other posters don't provide "evidence" for every opinion you hold. Trying to "gotcha" other forum posters with opposing views is not necessary.

You said you had "observed", that's not an opinion.

If you are just giving an opinion, that's fine. But that isn't what you were doing here. It's not about a "gotcha", it's about challenging people to back up the statements they make. It's not my fault that your "opinions" fall apart like a tissue paper suit under the most mild of questioning.

[Rocsteady]

They're examples of men being overlooked in society, in favour of trendier causes. I already stated that I don't think role models in films makes much difference to someones life chances.

Do you have evidence that men are overlooked in favour of "trendier causes"?

Because all the issues you mentioned (other than covid) have been issues for decades.

I mentioned role models (I didn't mention movies) as this whole conversation is about what the MP said.

Yes, I have observed this to be the case. Topical article from the Spectator on this subject: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/whe ... ome-toxic-

You've observed? That's not evidence.

Nor is that dreadful article.

But Cumberbatch taps into a deeper cultural trend too when he writes off stereotypically masculine values as toxic. Qualities such as courage, stoicism, strength, resilience, independence and assertiveness have become unfashionable with the cultural elite Cumberbatch very much represents. Far better, they tell us, to be gentle, caring, in touch with our emotions, open to displaying our vulnerabilities and sharing our struggles with mental health. Stoicism has given way to emotional incontinence.

But there’s a problem with this. Cumberbatch and his acting chums may do well out of public emoting but people who have to work in dangerous, physically demanding and poorly paid jobs, not so much. If I’m ever unfortunate enough to find myself trapped in a burning building, I want someone brave, strong and assertive to come to my rescue, not someone who is going to shed a tear over patriarchal social norms before asking me if I really want to be saved.

It's great she wants a brave, strong and assertive man to save her from a burning building. But it's not helpful for male suicide and for men dying younger (some of your points from earlier) to encourage men to turn towards stoicism and independence. And it's certainly not helpful to encourage strength, resilience and assertiveness to stop violence against men, as RoTS points out, when men are usually the ones perpetrating the violence.

I'm not giving them another click but that pull out quote is horrendous. As moggy says, that stiff upper lip bullshit is a big part of the reason why men kill themselves at such high rates. Amazingly enough you can be a tough mummy strawberry floater and also emotionally sensitive.

Stating that men are being overlooked in popular culture is just self-evidently strawberry floating nonsense. We've dominated the landscape since the origin of popular culture, and still make up most of the superheroes, spies, adventurers, etc etc etc.

[Tomous]

We're nowhere near men and women being on an equal footing in popular culture let alone men being overlooked.

[Lex-Man]

But we've only got Fast and Furious 9, Top Gun, Free Guy and the Matrix 4 this year. Really I'm not even sure if the Matrix 4 counts.

[Dowbocop]

They're examples of men being overlooked in society, in favour of trendier causes. I already stated that I don't think role models in films makes much difference to someones life chances.

Do you have evidence that men are overlooked in favour of "trendier causes"?

Because all the issues you mentioned (other than covid) have been issues for decades.

I mentioned role models (I didn't mention movies) as this whole conversation is about what the MP said.

Yes, I have observed this to be the case. Topical article from the Spectator on this subject: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/whe ... ome-toxic-

What that article describes aren't masculine and feminine behaviours, they're just behaviours. Men and women are both capable of burning-building heroism. Men and women are also both capable of struggling with their feelings and supporting themselves and others through them. It is currently societally acceptable that women can "do both" (it's obviously more complicated than the dichotomy I can be arsed to type above but you know what I mean). Men absolutely can as well, but the only people that seem to want to deny men that right in society are men-should-be-men dinosaurs like that columnist!

[Return_of_the_STAR]

But we've only got Fast and Furious 9, Top Gun, Free Guy and the Matrix 4 this year. Really I'm not even sure if the Matrix 4 counts.

Top Gun 2 has also been delayed till next year I feel emasculated.

[VlaSoul]

You've observed? That's not evidence.

Nor is that dreadful article.

This isn't Question Time, you & other posters don't provide "evidence" for every opinion you hold. Trying to "gotcha" other forum posters with opposing views is not necessary.

do you understand the concept of a debate

[Skarjo]

Sorry lads, you can't be a Jedi Knight when you grow up because of the WOKE LEFT.

[Skarjo]

twitter.com/adambienkov/status/1463886950704820232

Famously there was no crime at all before 2016.

The new Dr Who is quite fit, this calls for CRIME.

[Benzin]

It's amazing how stuck in the mindset of "men r 'ard" rhetoric we are.

The sheer idea of men showing emotion because their dad hit them with a belt and instilled discipline through fear is a completely alien concept.

There are many reasons why men are involved in crime. That Doctor Who being played by a woman is being attempted to be a reasoning behind this just stokes the culture war and ignores no only the seriousness that lie behind mental health and well being but also just ignores the solutions that could be bought in to prevent it.

[Moggy]

twitter.com/ericabuist/status/1464156159577935887

£40 a week! £5.71 a day.

Those migrants really are living the high life.

[Prototype]

I always love when I see a post from someone online saying "bloody illegal immigrants, coming over here and getting free money and houses"

As far as I'm aware, if you have entered the UK illegally, you won't get anything.

[Squinty]

Jesus, if 40 quid a week is luxury, I wonder what the writer thinks about benefit claimants on 70 quid a week

[Errkal]

Jesus, if 40 quid a week is luxury, I wonder what the writer thinks about benefit claimants on 70 quid a week

I dont think you need to wonder, I think we all know what they think of benfits claimants.

[Moggy]

Jesus, if 40 quid a week is luxury, I wonder what the writer thinks about benefit claimants on 70 quid a week

It's the Mail, we know what they think.

France actually pays asylum seekers (slightly) more. So they must all be risking drowning for the 4 star hotels.

[Rik_]

You've observed? That's not evidence.

Nor is that dreadful article.

This isn't Question Time, you & other posters don't provide "evidence" for every opinion you hold. Trying to "gotcha" other forum posters with opposing views is not necessary.

do you understand the concept of a debate

A debate is when I can say things and people nod along nicely, if people disagree then that's cancel culture

[Stuart]

Typically astute article from Tony Blair, on how to regain voter trust: https://institute.global/policy/red-wal ... -coalition I think Starmer already listens to his advice, as he's been quick to distance himself from the Corbyn era.

1. The leadership should continue to push the far left back to the margins. The country must know there is no question of negotiating the terms of power with them.
   
2. The party needs a new future-oriented policy agenda based on an understanding of how the world is changing which rejects both the old-fashioned statist view of the left and the status quo politics of the right. I have suggested before that the technology revolution should be at the heart of it.
   
3. We should openly embrace liberal, tolerant but common-sense positions on the “culture” issues, and emphatically reject the “wokeism” of a small though vocal minority.
   
4. And we should go out and seek the best and brightest from the younger generation to come and stand as Labour candidates. And make a virtue of doing so.

[captain red dog]

James O'brien had a refugee caller on explaining about the situation in France. He's subsequently gone to Germany because he found the UK too hostile. Anyway, it was interesting hearing his experience in France. He basically said they were given zero help and left homeless. So I can imagine the appeal of £40 a week and most likely a place to stay is probably worth the risk of crossing the channel.

That's not to say we shouldn't support refugees that get here, to be clear. As others have said, £40 a week is a tiny amount to try and live on. It's just in contrast to France where this guy got nothing.

I saw Boris sent a letter to France. The intent of the letter seemed reasonable, although seemingly there was no offer to take our fair share which I imagine is the crux of the issue for France. Not entirely sure why France have broken off talks this weekend (if the media can be believed) as the letter didn't seem particularly hostile or embarrassing but I guess the publication of it is the issue.

To solve the refugee crisis, we really need the EU to set up a proper settlement scheme for refugees internally, and then negotiate with neighbours like us about a fair share for us to take too (baring in mind me caused a lot of the conflict that created the crisis). Action needs to be taken now though very urgently between France and UK as the most important issue is to protect life.

[Cuttooth]

Typically astute article from Tony Blair, on how to regain voter trust: https://institute.global/policy/red-wal ... -coalition I think Starmer already listens to his advice, as he's been quick to distance himself from the Corbyn era.

1. The leadership should continue to push the far left back to the margins. The country must know there is no question of negotiating the terms of power with them.
   
2. The party needs a new future-oriented policy agenda based on an understanding of how the world is changing which rejects both the old-fashioned statist view of the left and the status quo politics of the right. I have suggested before that the technology revolution should be at the heart of it.
   
3. We should openly embrace liberal, tolerant but common-sense positions on the “culture” issues, and emphatically reject the “wokeism” of a small though vocal minority.
   
4. And we should go out and seek the best and brightest from the younger generation to come and stand as Labour candidates. And make a virtue of doing so.

What's wokeism?

[Moggy]

James O'brien had a refugee caller on explaining about the situation in France. He's subsequently gone to Germany because he found the UK too hostile. Anyway, it was interesting hearing his experience in France. He basically said they were given zero help and left homeless. So I can imagine the appeal of £40 a week and most likely a place to stay is probably worth the risk of crossing the channel.

That's not to say we shouldn't support refugees that get here, to be clear. As others have said, £40 a week is a tiny amount to try and live on. It's just in contrast to France where this guy got nothing.

I didn't hear the call so don't know his individual circumstances, but France pays £43.50 per week, whereas the UK pays £39.63.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/why- ... -gqhnrwcwx

I don't know why that guy didn't get any money, but it's wrong to say asylum seekers get nothing in France.

It's also a myth that people are desperate to come to the UK. Most don't.

twitter.com/andrewprlevi/status/1462462048277827588