Politics Thread 6

Fed up talking videogames? Why?

Who will you vote for at the next General Election?

Conservative
10
9%
Labour
46
40%
Liberal Democrat
26
23%
Green
19
17%
SNP
8
7%
Brexit Party
1
1%
UKIP
1
1%
Plaid Cymru
1
1%
DUP
0
No votes
Sinn Fein
2
2%
The Independent Group for Change
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 114
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Moggy
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PostRe: Politics Thread 6
by Moggy » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:46 am

Drumstick wrote:
Moggy wrote:I have slightly more distant relatives that are banana splits. My mum's cousins (never know the proper term for what relation they are to me!) are twats. Brexit supporting racist twats.

Have they not met your wife? :?


Yeah.

They don't hate Black people. They hate Muslims/Asians.

I fell out with them years ago over Brexit (all I did was ask questions on Facebook, was instantly defriended :lol: ), but my mum stayed reasonably friendly.

At the wedding of my mum's cousin's daughter (strawberry float me families are confusing), the cousin was ranting and raving about Asians "ruining the venue!" and shouting at staff that "Asians have left the place filthy!".

My mum said there was nothing wrong there at all, her cousin was fine until she found out there was an Asian wedding there the day before. :fp:

My mum didn't want to ruin the bride's day by arguing with the mother of the bride (strawberry float knows why, the daughter is also a vile banana split) but hasn't bothered with them at all since.

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captain red dog
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PostRe: Politics Thread 6
by captain red dog » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:51 am

Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:
Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:
Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:
Moggy wrote:

The British empire is slowly disappearing. :toot:

I've read about this, has it been decided by referendum? I have a Barbadian friend, and from what he has told me the Monarchy is actually quite well liked (and he isn't particularly a monarchist) , but obviously that's just the view of one person. I don't know what polling in Barbados says.


I don't think it was a referendum. If Barbados has learned anything from Britain then it's to avoid referendums...

I think when it comes to issues of constitutional reform, particularly deciding their parliamentary system, referendums are essential.


Yeah, it worked out well for us....

I think there are things that could have been done different, for example for a constitutional change it should require a 75% threshold or something.

I'd argue gay marriage wouldn't be legal in Ireland without the referendum. You can't really take one badly managed referendum, and I think almost everyone would agree the EU ref was a mess, and remove the prospect of asking the people.

If you look at the US system, any constitutional reform is now almost impossible without going to the people directly.


I'm not taking one. I'm including the AV referendum in my list of stupidity.

A democratically elected government shouldn't need to hold a referendum on ditching a ceremonial monarch that's just a holdover from the days of empire.

Depends on the majority the government has though doesn't it?

And again, the AV referendum was an absolute mess because it was a compromise away from PR, Labour pretty much kept quiet and there was general rage at the one supporting party (the lib dems) for selling tuition fees down the road for it.

Something like the constitutional head of state is a much simpler prospect. How the head of state is decided is surely a matter directly for the people.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Politics Thread 6
by Moggy » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:54 am

captain red dog wrote:
Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:
Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:
Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:
Moggy wrote:

The British empire is slowly disappearing. :toot:

I've read about this, has it been decided by referendum? I have a Barbadian friend, and from what he has told me the Monarchy is actually quite well liked (and he isn't particularly a monarchist) , but obviously that's just the view of one person. I don't know what polling in Barbados says.


I don't think it was a referendum. If Barbados has learned anything from Britain then it's to avoid referendums...

I think when it comes to issues of constitutional reform, particularly deciding their parliamentary system, referendums are essential.


Yeah, it worked out well for us....

I think there are things that could have been done different, for example for a constitutional change it should require a 75% threshold or something.

I'd argue gay marriage wouldn't be legal in Ireland without the referendum. You can't really take one badly managed referendum, and I think almost everyone would agree the EU ref was a mess, and remove the prospect of asking the people.

If you look at the US system, any constitutional reform is now almost impossible without going to the people directly.


I'm not taking one. I'm including the AV referendum in my list of stupidity.

A democratically elected government shouldn't need to hold a referendum on ditching a ceremonial monarch that's just a holdover from the days of empire.

Depends on the majority the government has though doesn't it?

And again, the AV referendum was an absolute mess because it was a compromise away from PR, Labour pretty much kept quiet and there was general rage at the one supporting party (the lib dems) for selling tuition fees down the road for it.

Something like the constitutional head of state is a much simpler prospect. How the head of state is decided is surely a matter directly for the people.


We've only ever had 3 nationwide referendums and we are at 2/3rds of them being terrible. It's not looking good for referendums...

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captain red dog
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Location: Bristol, UK

PostRe: Politics Thread 6
by captain red dog » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:04 am

Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:
Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:
Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:
Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:
Moggy wrote:

The British empire is slowly disappearing. :toot:

I've read about this, has it been decided by referendum? I have a Barbadian friend, and from what he has told me the Monarchy is actually quite well liked (and he isn't particularly a monarchist) , but obviously that's just the view of one person. I don't know what polling in Barbados says.


I don't think it was a referendum. If Barbados has learned anything from Britain then it's to avoid referendums...

I think when it comes to issues of constitutional reform, particularly deciding their parliamentary system, referendums are essential.


Yeah, it worked out well for us....

I think there are things that could have been done different, for example for a constitutional change it should require a 75% threshold or something.

I'd argue gay marriage wouldn't be legal in Ireland without the referendum. You can't really take one badly managed referendum, and I think almost everyone would agree the EU ref was a mess, and remove the prospect of asking the people.

If you look at the US system, any constitutional reform is now almost impossible without going to the people directly.


I'm not taking one. I'm including the AV referendum in my list of stupidity.

A democratically elected government shouldn't need to hold a referendum on ditching a ceremonial monarch that's just a holdover from the days of empire.

Depends on the majority the government has though doesn't it?

And again, the AV referendum was an absolute mess because it was a compromise away from PR, Labour pretty much kept quiet and there was general rage at the one supporting party (the lib dems) for selling tuition fees down the road for it.

Something like the constitutional head of state is a much simpler prospect. How the head of state is decided is surely a matter directly for the people.


We've only ever had 3 nationwide referendums and we are at 2/3rds of them being terrible. It's not looking good for referendums...

You have to keep in mind that two of those referendums were under the most disorganised governments of modern history.

You could also argue the last 3 or 4 (I've lost count) general elections have been universally terrible too.

I'll always maintain that asking the people to decide on direct and important constitutional issues (I'm not sure I'd even put the EU vote in that category to be fair) are a good idea.

Even in terms of the EU vote, I find it hard to argue against it taking place as the government of the day won a majority on holding it. The actual methodology of it was the problem. It should have required 2/3rds majority, but it didn't.

If you look at the Scots ref, even there I feel the method was wrong. Say the independence movement won by a couple of percent, could that really be justified in stripping 49% of the population of being part of the union?

Referendums are fine, but they can't be run in the manner of general elections.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Politics Thread 6
by Moggy » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:07 am

captain red dog wrote:[

I'll always maintain that asking the people to decide on direct and important constitutional issues (I'm not sure I'd even put the EU vote in that category to be fair) are a good idea.


The EU referendum was absolutely a constitutional matter. :lol:

Every single referendum we've mentioned has been a disaster or had the wrong methods.

Maybe the trouble is giving a binary choice on complex issues that the general public doesn't understand or has little interest in?

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Lex-Man
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PostRe: Politics Thread 6
by Lex-Man » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:08 am

Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:
Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:
Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:
Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:
Moggy wrote:

The British empire is slowly disappearing. :toot:

I've read about this, has it been decided by referendum? I have a Barbadian friend, and from what he has told me the Monarchy is actually quite well liked (and he isn't particularly a monarchist) , but obviously that's just the view of one person. I don't know what polling in Barbados says.


I don't think it was a referendum. If Barbados has learned anything from Britain then it's to avoid referendums...

I think when it comes to issues of constitutional reform, particularly deciding their parliamentary system, referendums are essential.


Yeah, it worked out well for us....

I think there are things that could have been done different, for example for a constitutional change it should require a 75% threshold or something.

I'd argue gay marriage wouldn't be legal in Ireland without the referendum. You can't really take one badly managed referendum, and I think almost everyone would agree the EU ref was a mess, and remove the prospect of asking the people.

If you look at the US system, any constitutional reform is now almost impossible without going to the people directly.


I'm not taking one. I'm including the AV referendum in my list of stupidity.

A democratically elected government shouldn't need to hold a referendum on ditching a ceremonial monarch that's just a holdover from the days of empire.

Depends on the majority the government has though doesn't it?

And again, the AV referendum was an absolute mess because it was a compromise away from PR, Labour pretty much kept quiet and there was general rage at the one supporting party (the lib dems) for selling tuition fees down the road for it.

Something like the constitutional head of state is a much simpler prospect. How the head of state is decided is surely a matter directly for the people.


We've only ever had 3 nationwide referendums and we are at 2/3rds of them being terrible. It's not looking good for referendums...


I had a look at the system in California and that seemed pretty terrible, IMO although the system in Switzerland seemed better but more because the government can turn around and say "hey guys, the thing you voted for, we had a go at doing it but it's not really possible. Soz."

I don't necessarily think that it's referendum that's the problem it's the level of political discourse in this country is total garbage. Everything just gets paired down to little more than slogans and most of the debates are based around half truths at best.

Amusement under late capitalism is the prolongation of work.
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Tomous
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PostRe: Politics Thread 6
by Tomous » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:08 am

We are in the age of disinformation. There is no shared reality and until that changes, referendums will be a disaster.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Politics Thread 6
by Moggy » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:22 am



:fp:

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OrangeRKN
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PostRe: Politics Thread 6
by OrangeRKN » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:46 am

A simple majority does not build a strong enough consensus on a binary issue. Consensus building should be a primary goal of any democratic system. Referenda should not be considered authorative without a qualified majority.

FPTP does not even guarantee a simple majority for the winning outcome, so cannot even be said to be representative - probably the most fundamental requirement for a functioning democracy.

Anyone designing a democracy today (assuming the intention of actually creating a democracy) would never come up with the British system. It is so obviously flawed and yet survives because of political inertia and vested interests.

The AV referendum established a precedent, within the Conservatives especially, to use referenda as a political tool and not for their actual intended purpose as unbiased societal polls. The entire setup of the AV referendum was flawed by design as a democratic exercise and the ease of its political "win" for the Conservatives I'm sure emboldened them on pushing the Scottish Independence and Brexit referenda. The Brexit referendum was a clear and devastating miscalculation by the then prevailing Conservative leadership and its resulted in a far right populist ascendancy backed by disaster capitalists. I'm not sure what that means for the future of referenda - the Brexit miscalculation should act as a warning against wanton use as a political tool, but perhaps the political draw of promising referenda and the public expectation of them now can't be undone. Regardless, there appears to be little appetite to restructure the mechanism of referenda into something more measurably democratic.

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Knoyleo
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PostRe: Politics Thread 6
by Knoyleo » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:55 am

Moggy wrote:

:fp:

Sure smells like destruction of evidence in here.

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captain red dog
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Location: Bristol, UK

PostRe: Politics Thread 6
by captain red dog » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:23 pm

Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:[

I'll always maintain that asking the people to decide on direct and important constitutional issues (I'm not sure I'd even put the EU vote in that category to be fair) are a good idea.


The EU referendum was absolutely a constitutional matter. :lol:

Every single referendum we've mentioned has been a disaster or had the wrong methods.

Maybe the trouble is giving a binary choice on complex issues that the general public doesn't understand or has little interest in?

It depends how you look at it. The leave campaign saw it as a constitutional matter, remain saw it as a kind of trade agreement issue which generally we don't put to the people. I can sympathise with both views. Where I would draw back to the remain side is that the difficulty of leaving is around the NI border, and the issue there is because of trade, and being unable to have a border because of the peace agreement. Anyway, I digress.

I agree that the way we have used referendum has been completely wrong. However, if you were to ask me how we would sort the issue of the Lords, I'd say a referendum would pretty much solve the issue. I just don't see how any one who wants to keep the Lords could get your white van man to want to keep them.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Politics Thread 6
by Moggy » Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:31 pm

captain red dog wrote:remain saw it as a kind of trade agreement issue which generally we don't put to the people.


Huh?

It's true Remain saw the trade side, but the constitutional side was also absolutely there for Remain.

We generally don't put anything to the people. We've only ever had 3 referendums. One on entering Europe, one on AV and one on leaving Europe.

Our system isn't set up for referendums. Our population is too ignorant/apathetic for referendums.

Barbados might be different, maybe they are all engaged and clued up. We'll see if the population there is upset over losing the Queen or not getting to vote on it. I suspect they either don't care or will be glad to get rid of the last bits of colonialism.

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PostRe: Politics Thread 6
by Lex-Man » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:13 pm

Wow the Government Spending Watchdog is actually going to look into the massive amounts of fraud that are happening at the moment. I wonder how long before the Tories scrape the department?

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Moggy
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PostRe: Politics Thread 6
by Moggy » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:05 am



In other news, an arsonist is volunteering with his local fire brigade.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Politics Thread 6
by Moggy » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:17 am

Ex-Transport Secretary Chris Grayling has landed a £100,000 job advising the owner of some of the UK's top ports.

The Conservative MP is working for Hutchison Ports, which operates Harwich and Felixstowe among other terminals.
According to the MPs' register of financial interests, he will be paid for seven hours work a week for a year.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54185180



strawberry floating hell. Imagine being so privileged that your name is literally synonymous with failure and yet you still pick up a £100k p.a. job for 7 hours work per week.

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Hypes
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PostRe: Politics Thread 6
by Hypes » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:11 pm


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Squinty
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PostRe: Politics Thread 6
by Squinty » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:23 pm

Can Somerset not elect that pompous strawberry floating arsehole Rees Mogg anymore? Just seen his response to the testing fiasco.

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Rex Kramer
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PostRe: Politics Thread 6
by Rex Kramer » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:50 pm

Squinty wrote:Can Somerset not elect that pompous strawberry floating arsehole Rees Mogg anymore? Just seen his response to the testing fiasco.

He is pretty much everything I loathe about this country all wrapped up into a single, poorly attired, strawberry float nugget.

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Cuttooth
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PostRe: Politics Thread 6
by Cuttooth » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:54 pm

Remember that weird Young Tories push to make him the next leader? :dread:

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Lex-Man
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PostRe: Politics Thread 6
by Lex-Man » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:10 pm

Honestly he wouldn't have done any worse than Johnson.

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