Politics Thread 6

[Trelliz]

You're right Vermi, the demonisation of people being supported by welfare is disgusting and sadly very embedded in our society.

While as you say it got worse since Austerity, I definitely remember New Labour using this kind of benefits cheats / scroungers rhetoric too. The fact that politicians didn't stand up to it was a failure that I feel helped normalise the awful tabloid hatemongering against the welfare system that's still ongoing.

Unfortunately it's useful to the establishment as a form of divide and conquer. Convince ordinary people to hate eachother while the real culprits, the corrupt politicians and tax-dodging multibillionaires, get off scot-free.

Erghh Marxist BLM propaganda. Capitalism has raised £1,000,000's out of poverty!!!!!!

Fixed.

[Squinty]

I was speaking to some random dude in the bus station about this topic not too long ago (he just wanted a chat I think, and I happened to be standing in his general direction). He was having difficulty walking, so I assume he was on sickness/disability benefits.

He was talking about the portrayal benefits claimants have in the media. He brought up the point that he hoped people would be a bit more sympathetic towards people like that, due to everything that has happened over the past few months. He had a similar outlook as those people until recently (when he started having issues).

That was actually a really nice exchange. I usually hate small talk like that. Kinda shows you that you really shouldn't be judgemental on people in that position, because it could easily be you in the same situation.

[Moggy]

I he hoped people would be a bit more sympathetic towards people like that, due to everything that has happened over the past few months.

[Tomous]

I was speaking to some random dude in the bus station about this topic not too long ago (he just wanted a chat I think, and I happened to be standing in his general direction). He was having difficulty walking, so I assume he was on sickness/disability benefits.

He was talking about the portrayal benefits claimants have in the media. He brought up the point that he hoped people would be a bit more sympathetic towards people like that, due to everything that has happened over the past few months. He had a similar outlook as those people until recently (when he started having issues).

That was actually a really nice exchange. I usually hate small talk like that. Kinda shows you that you really shouldn't be judgemental on people in that position, because it could easily be you in the same situation.

And here's part of the problem.

[Moggy]

twitter.com/pointlesslettrs/status/1287790981920759809

Is there anybody called Nigel that isn't a banana split?

[Tomous]

[Lex-Man]

People will generally start off conversations about benefits saying it shall all be cut, but then when you point out specific circumstances where people require benefits they say "well of course in those cases they should be kept." and then circle back to saying everything should be cut. I think most people have trouble thinking in non-binary ways, everything has to be good or bad when there are upsides and downsides of any decision.

[Moggy]

I don't know any polo players so no idea who that is.

[Tomous]

I think most people have trouble thinking in non-binary ways, everything has to be good or bad.

This is very much the world in 2020. There's very little consideration for nuance anymore.

[Eighthours]

I think most people have trouble thinking in non-binary ways, everything has to be good or bad.

This is very much the world in 2020. There's very little consideration for nuance anymore.

One of those nuances is that my ex worked for the DWP for a couple of years and said that it really changed her views on benefits. Unfortunately not in the way Karl would hope - she said that there were so many more people trying to bullshit money out of the system than she thought possible before she joined, and that benefit sanctions were massively misreported in the press. For example, there would often be stories about someone losing their benefits after missing one appointment, something she said wasn’t actually possible under the system. Such a person would have had to miss multiple appointments over a number of months and completely ignore all attempts at contacting them, in order to receive a sanction. She also described many fraudulent attempts at claiming benefits in her job centre alone. She was very disillusioned when she left there.

Benefits are very important, but so are the checks involved in claiming them. Unfortunately we are dealing with human nature here.

[Squinty]

Not sure if it is possible under Universal Credit, but for Jobseeker's Allowance it was perfectly possible to be sanctioned if you missed one appointment or a sign on. They basically did a decision on your reasons for missing those appointments. If they were perceived as not good enough, you would be sanctioned. I know this from experience of the system.

Although I do somewhat agree with your point on some of the cases being portrayed weirdly or incorrectly in the media. It's rare, but it does happen. I remember reading this article where the media outlet had basically amplified the claimants incorrect interpretation of benefit legislation (I know about this legislation and what it covers because of a past job I had which dealt with this type of stuff).

[Moggy]

Citizens Advice = LIARS!

https://www.cas.org.uk/features/client- ... ppointment

[That]

Ignore the haters Eighthours, you've certainly changed my mind. If your ex worked for the DWP and said all the journalism about the DWP is wrong, then it must be wrong! Really eye-opening, thank you.

[Vermilion]

I definitely also remember New Labour using this kind of benefits cheats / scroungers rhetoric too. The fact that politicians at the time didn't stand up to it was a failure that I feel helped normalise the awful tabloid hatemongering against the welfare system that's still ongoing.

Exactly, it mustn't be forgotten that the demonisation of the sick and disabled began under the Labour govt when they decided to scrap Incapacity Benefit.

The creation of ESA (and the change to a much harsher assessments regime which led to ATOS and their successors) was devised by the then work and pensions secretary James Purnell, who under Gordon Brown, was tasked with kicking as many people off the system as possible.

To grease the wheels in order for this to happen, the public were bombarded regularly with press stories about how everyone claiming sickness was faking it, and how everyone knew someone who was a false claimant. Of course, all this (which as i said earlier, was turbocharged by the Cameron government) led to a system which has caused untold misery and suffering to thousands, but due to it being considered a good thing by society, there has never been any kind of reckoning, and is unlikely to see any change for the better.

[Squinty]

Ignore the haters Eighthours, you've certainly changed my mind. If your ex worked for the DWP and said all the journalism about the DWP is wrong, then it must be wrong! Really eye-opening, thank you.

[KK]

Mildly interesting fact I learned tonight: The Sun’s former political editor Tom Newton-Dunn is related to Emily Newton-Dunn (of Bits and ARCADE/PlayStation Power magazine fame).

I’m probably 15 years too late with that ‘revelation’.

[Dowbocop]

I think most people have trouble thinking in non-binary ways, everything has to be good or bad.

This is very much the world in 2020. There's very little consideration for nuance anymore.

One of those nuances is that my ex worked for the DWP for a couple of years and said that it really changed her views on benefits. Unfortunately not in the way Karl would hope - she said that there were so many more people trying to bullshit money out of the system than she thought possible before she joined, and that benefit sanctions were massively misreported in the press. For example, there would often be stories about someone losing their benefits after missing one appointment, something she said wasn’t actually possible under the system. Such a person would have had to miss multiple appointments over a number of months and completely ignore all attempts at contacting them, in order to receive a sanction. She also described many fraudulent attempts at claiming benefits in her job centre alone. She was very disillusioned when she left there.

Benefits are very important, but so are the checks involved in claiming them. Unfortunately we are dealing with human nature here.

One of the most irritating things I find with Conservatism in general is the underlying notion that anyone who wants a fairer society is naive and needs to wise up about human nature. It's like compassion is a childish trait that must be eliminated in order to progress in life.

[Moggy]

One of the most irritating things I find with Conservatism in general is the underlying notion that anyone who wants a fairer society is naive and needs to wise up about human nature. It's like compassion is a childish trait that must be eliminated in order to progress in life.

It's funny really as it's the exact opposite of what we teach children they should be.

[That]

One of the most irritating things I find with Conservatism in general is the underlying notion that anyone who wants a fairer society is naive and needs to wise up about human nature. It's like compassion is a childish trait that must be eliminated in order to progress in life.

It's funny really as it's the exact opposite of what we teach children they should be.

Yes! When I think "moral values" I think things like "empathy", "sharing", "kindness"...

A related funny thing is how the churchgoing vote goes Tory. Now admittedly I'm an atheist and no Bible expert by any means, but I can't imagine the guy who said "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" would be too happy about Boris et al.

It turns out psychology / evolution research doesn't support the conservative view of human nature either. The simple way to put it is that we're social animals, we don't carve out a territory like a wolverine, we're supposed to team up and work together. Most people are instinctively willing to stop and help others in a crisis for instance.

A lot of the more callous parts of common behaviour are learned - people don't walk past injured homeless people because they lack an instinct to help, it's because they've learned from society this idea that homeless people are dirty / undeserving / dangerous / worthless. Stick the same injured guy in a suit and you recover the altruistic behaviour from passers-by that sadly is just suppressed if he's wearing an old coat or whatever. It's sad and frustrating but it's not inherent to humanity, if we change our society and culture we can change that behaviour.

[Moggy]

One of the most irritating things I find with Conservatism in general is the underlying notion that anyone who wants a fairer society is naive and needs to wise up about human nature. It's like compassion is a childish trait that must be eliminated in order to progress in life.

It's funny really as it's the exact opposite of what we teach children they should be.

Yes! When I think "moral values" I think things like "empathy", "sharing", "kindness"...

Exactly.

We tell selfish/tantrum kids that they are childish. That they should share with their friends. That they should make an effort with kids they don't know or like.

But when you hit 18, suddenly you're expected to forget all that and only look after yourself.