Politics Thread 6

[Tineash]

twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1363414744829419521

strawberry floating hell Starmer

So forensic, so moderate, so sensible, so 20 points ahead.

Didn't help that he was 163 seats behind when he took over.

This is a really pitiful excuse for every baffling & spineless decision Starmer's made since he became leader.

or in other words..

[Hexx]

I think my favourite thing about Corbyn supporters is how the learned from the absolute disaster that was his time in power.

The constant defeats really taught them some humility and the period of self reflection after the near unprecedented losses really helped them grow up into a mature, political movement that you can really respect.

[Hexx]

twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1363414744829419521

strawberry floating hell Starmer

So forensic, so moderate, so sensible, so 20 points ahead.

Didn't help that he was 163 seats behind when he took over.

This is a really pitiful excuse for every baffling & spineless decision Starmer's made since he became leader.

or in other words..

Given who brought the left/right common talking points into the discussion that doesn't really work does it? Want to try again? (I mean at this post. Not another term in government edit Leadership (silly be you didn't even get within sight of government) no one wants you to hand to Tories a super majority again ta)

[Tineash]

You are famous for melting down like a 12 year old Hexx, so maybe just don't?

[Knoyleo]

You supported Jeremy Corbyn? You may as well just have supported the Tories. You should support Keith Strawman, then you're just supporting Tory policies.

[Hexx]

Who in the last few pages said anything close to "you should support Starmer"?

There was post after post criticising Starmer (again). Then the usual left leaning turn up (again) to make it left/right issue (again) and get their oh so predictable little digs in despite the history and that, even given his strawberry float ups, right poster boy Starmer, is miles ahead of the last left Dreamboy/Failure. It's just aggravatedly banal. Change the talking point or at least learn 2019 happened.

Tinesh use of that image given the context of events he was commentating was just the cherry on the lack of self awareness cake.

[Oblomov Boblomov]

I think the idea that anyone take centre stage within the next three years or so and push Labour ahead in long-term mainstream polling is total fantasy.

The window of opportunity will open around six months before the next general election. It will be the eye of a needle and we just need to hope the proverbial camel turns up in miraculous fashion, with a message that can somehow get through to the horrifyingly substantial percentage of the electorate that doesn't care about facts, evidence, objective analysis, fairness or equality, and responds only to primitive, instinctive emotional reasoning.

[Cuttooth]

I think the idea that anyone take centre stage within the next three years or so and push Labour ahead in long-term mainstream polling is total fantasy.

The window of opportunity will open around six months before the next general election. It will be the eye of a needle and we just need to hope the proverbial camel turns up in miraculous fashion, with a message that can somehow get through to the horrifyingly substantial percentage of the electorate that doesn't care about facts, evidence, objective analysis, fairness or equality, and responds only to primitive, instinctive emotional reasoning.

That's a genuinely terrible way to try to win any kind of election. It simply won't work.

[Buffalo]

Why a camel?

[Hexx]

I think the idea that anyone take centre stage within the next three years or so and push Labour ahead in long-term mainstream polling is total fantasy.

The window of opportunity will open around six months before the next general election. It will be the eye of a needle and we just need to hope the proverbial camel turns up in miraculous fashion, with a message that can somehow get through to the horrifyingly substantial percentage of the electorate that doesn't care about facts, evidence, objective analysis, fairness or equality, and responds only to primitive, instinctive emotional reasoning.

I genuinely don't see how anyone is going to beat the Tories in England and therefore the UK (especially when/if Scotland leaves)

Politics seems to have morphed. It's still tribalism - but it's more about upsetting/pissing off your perceived enemies (or being charitable simple beating them).

You don't seem to even be assume people will be convinced by self interest any more. Milliband, Corbyn and Starmer all had policies that were great for large swatches of the public, but they'd rather vote against the interest to "stick to the establishment/EU/Status Quo etc". They don't seem to care if they're suffering, as long the think/can claim victory over the other side/the enemy. (See Tories desperately trying to start a culture war)

Despite the deaths, disaster and corruption the Tories are still ahead, and most polls comfortably so. Johnson is seen as a better PM than Starmer by something like 15 to 20 points. Nothing breaks through the "new style" tribalism.

I don't know how you even begin to counter that - and looking at a lot of western elections recently, neither does anyone else.

[Oblomov Boblomov]

I think the idea that anyone take centre stage within the next three years or so and push Labour ahead in long-term mainstream polling is total fantasy.

The window of opportunity will open around six months before the next general election. It will be the eye of a needle and we just need to hope the proverbial camel turns up in miraculous fashion, with a message that can somehow get through to the horrifyingly substantial percentage of the electorate that doesn't care about facts, evidence, objective analysis, fairness or equality, and responds only to primitive, instinctive emotional reasoning.

That's a genuinely terrible way to try to win any kind of election. It simply won't work.

I'm not sure how you've interpreted my post (as some single-minded, blinkered strategy to target only current Tory voters and forget about everything else, maybe?) but I'm thinking much more generally, simply about converting enough votes overall. How else do you win an election?

[Oblomov Boblomov]

Why a camel?

What have you got against camels?

I think the idea that anyone take centre stage within the next three years or so and push Labour ahead in long-term mainstream polling is total fantasy.

The window of opportunity will open around six months before the next general election. It will be the eye of a needle and we just need to hope the proverbial camel turns up in miraculous fashion, with a message that can somehow get through to the horrifyingly substantial percentage of the electorate that doesn't care about facts, evidence, objective analysis, fairness or equality, and responds only to primitive, instinctive emotional reasoning.

I genuinely don't see how anyone is going to beat the Tories in England and therefore the UK (especially when/if Scotland leaves)

Politics seems to have morphed. It's still tribalism - but it's more about upsetting/pissing off your perceived enemies (or being charitable simple beating them).

You don't seem to even be assume people will be convinced by self interest any more. Milliband, Corbyn and Starmer all had policies that were great for large swatches of the public, but they'd rather vote against the interest to "stick to the establishment/EU/Status Quo etc". They don't seem to care if they're suffering, as long the think/can claim victory over the other side/the enemy. (See Tories desperately trying to start a culture war)

Despite the deaths, disaster and corruption the Tories are still ahead, and most polls comfortably so. Johnson is seen as a better PM than Starmer by something like 15 to 20 points. Nothing breaks through the "new style" tribalism.

I don't know how you even begin to counter that - and looking at a lot of western elections recently, neither does anyone else.

I agree. We can point out that progressive policies will improve things for everyone, and right-wing weirdos will see that as a negative. They'd rather stick to life at 6/10 than move up to 7/10 if it means people they don't like get to move from 2/10 to 5/10.

[Meep]

Predictable the Labour right are rounding on anyone criticising Starmer, saying they are dividing the party, with a complete lack of self-awareness after working non-stop for five years to sabotage Corbyn.

[Return_of_the_STAR]

Predictable the Labour right are rounding on anyone criticising Starmer, saying they are dividing the party, with a complete lack of self-awareness after working non-stop for five years to sabotage Corbyn.

Just like you weren't allowed to criticise Corbyn then

[Cuttooth]

I think the idea that anyone take centre stage within the next three years or so and push Labour ahead in long-term mainstream polling is total fantasy.

The window of opportunity will open around six months before the next general election. It will be the eye of a needle and we just need to hope the proverbial camel turns up in miraculous fashion, with a message that can somehow get through to the horrifyingly substantial percentage of the electorate that doesn't care about facts, evidence, objective analysis, fairness or equality, and responds only to primitive, instinctive emotional reasoning.

That's a genuinely terrible way to try to win any kind of election. It simply won't work.

I'm not sure how you've interpreted my post (as some single-minded, blinkered strategy to target only current Tory voters and forget about everything else, maybe?) but I'm thinking much more generally, simply about converting enough votes overall. How else do you win an election?

You seem to be suggesting (and to be fair Starmer seems to agree with you) that the only chance to win an election campaign is in the six months leading up to it, rather than it being an actual long slog of ongoing work to make a continuous good impression.

[Oblomov Boblomov]

I think the idea that anyone take centre stage within the next three years or so and push Labour ahead in long-term mainstream polling is total fantasy.

The window of opportunity will open around six months before the next general election. It will be the eye of a needle and we just need to hope the proverbial camel turns up in miraculous fashion, with a message that can somehow get through to the horrifyingly substantial percentage of the electorate that doesn't care about facts, evidence, objective analysis, fairness or equality, and responds only to primitive, instinctive emotional reasoning.

That's a genuinely terrible way to try to win any kind of election. It simply won't work.

I'm not sure how you've interpreted my post (as some single-minded, blinkered strategy to target only current Tory voters and forget about everything else, maybe?) but I'm thinking much more generally, simply about converting enough votes overall. How else do you win an election?

You seem to be suggesting (and to be fair Starmer seems to agree with you) that the only chance to win an election campaign is in the six months leading up to it, rather than it being an actual long slog of ongoing work to make a continuous good impression.

I could obviously be wrong but unfortunately that is how I see it, at least to quite an extent. People like us get caught up in it in the everyday, interacting in online discussion or whatever else, but I don't think enough public consciousness is active until it gets towards the business end. Not enough to cut through in a meaningful way to many undecideds or swing voters, who won't be arsed about looking back 2, 3, 4 years when it comes to it at the next GE.

Those of us who are paying attention appear to be too deeply entrenched to even consider switching from our chosen one of the two main 'sides' of debate. Certainly there would have to be a cataclysmic shift for me to switch sides. I can't even imagine what that would look like, and I expect someone voting Tory/Brexit would say the same.

[Lex-Man]

I think the idea that anyone take centre stage within the next three years or so and push Labour ahead in long-term mainstream polling is total fantasy.

The window of opportunity will open around six months before the next general election. It will be the eye of a needle and we just need to hope the proverbial camel turns up in miraculous fashion, with a message that can somehow get through to the horrifyingly substantial percentage of the electorate that doesn't care about facts, evidence, objective analysis, fairness or equality, and responds only to primitive, instinctive emotional reasoning.

That's a genuinely terrible way to try to win any kind of election. It simply won't work.

I'm not sure how you've interpreted my post (as some single-minded, blinkered strategy to target only current Tory voters and forget about everything else, maybe?) but I'm thinking much more generally, simply about converting enough votes overall. How else do you win an election?

You seem to be suggesting (and to be fair Starmer seems to agree with you) that the only chance to win an election campaign is in the six months leading up to it, rather than it being an actual long slog of ongoing work to make a continuous good impression.

That six month before the election is the most important but you need to build something up before you get there so you have the foundation to push off.

[Moggy]

twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1363414744829419521

strawberry floating hell Starmer

So forensic, so moderate, so sensible, so 20 points ahead.

Didn't help that he was 163 seats behind when he took over.

This is a really pitiful excuse for every baffling & spineless decision Starmer's made since he became leader.

or in other words..

You realise that doesn't work here right?

I criticised an appalling Starmer decision.

You did your usual "20 points ahead!" nonsense.

I then responded with just how badly the last leader did.

I'm no Starmer fanboy, I'll criticise him when he deserves it. Which is the opposite of the Corbyn fanboys who just can't bring themselves to admit just what a poor leader he was.

[Oblomov Boblomov]

I think the idea that anyone take centre stage within the next three years or so and push Labour ahead in long-term mainstream polling is total fantasy.

The window of opportunity will open around six months before the next general election. It will be the eye of a needle and we just need to hope the proverbial camel turns up in miraculous fashion, with a message that can somehow get through to the horrifyingly substantial percentage of the electorate that doesn't care about facts, evidence, objective analysis, fairness or equality, and responds only to primitive, instinctive emotional reasoning.

That's a genuinely terrible way to try to win any kind of election. It simply won't work.

I'm not sure how you've interpreted my post (as some single-minded, blinkered strategy to target only current Tory voters and forget about everything else, maybe?) but I'm thinking much more generally, simply about converting enough votes overall. How else do you win an election?

You seem to be suggesting (and to be fair Starmer seems to agree with you) that the only chance to win an election campaign is in the six months leading up to it, rather than it being an actual long slog of ongoing work to make a continuous good impression.

That six month before the election is the most important but you need to build something up before you get there so you have the foundation to push off.

Yeah it's not like I disagree with that, I just can't see an opening to achieve a material lead in the polls until we get right up towards that ~six months timeframe.

Anyone reading this in 2022/23, enjoying a healthy Labour lead over the Tories that isn't just a flash in the pan, please do quote the gooseberry fool out of me and I will happily celebrate being wrong!

[Rocsteady]

KS coming out against decriminalisation of weed is strawberry floating bullshit