Politics Thread 6

[OrangeRKN]

The government is populated by capitalists funded by capitalist donors. Their primary motivation is private profit, so the most effective protest is one that puts that profit at risk. That can be done through strikes, but aggressive anti-union legislation was implemented to counter this. That can be done through boycotts, but a complicit media and diversification of investment make boycotts ineffective. Disruption of economic activity can be targeted to a specific business or a general act such as blocking roads, but both can ripple back to affecting those in government.

Capitalism is an amoral system. The ethical difference, whatever it may be argued, between going on strike or boycotting a company or burning down their warehouse or blocking a road, doesn't matter in terms of pure effectiveness. All that matters is the economic impact.

First we should be concerned with reorganising society into a representative democracy without rampant corruption, then perhaps peaceful demonstrations would be an effective form of protest.

[VlaSoul]

I still can’t believe so many people on here support acts of criminality and violence as a form of protest. This is where we differ and will never agree. We all have different lines I could only support anything on this level if there was a genuine civil war or military coup or something. Not protesting against a government bill. How does it help make a point to the government by attacking and abusing general members of the public, damaging private property, blocking roads. It just turns people against you.

It has been pointed out to you on multiple occasions that both the points I highlighted and organised violence in general have proven to be effective forms of protest. Effective protest generally requires acts of disruption to draw attention to the cause and puts pressure on the government to actually institute meaningful change in order to return to everyday function.

We support so called acts of criminality at least on the hypothetical level because we're realistic and recognise that such things have their place in movements towards genuine change. Assuming that people turn against those championing a cause simply due to violence perpetuated is a fallacious line of reasoning; the reactionary will appear no matter what. Where there is the promise of change, there will be those who oppose it, and they will be supported and allowed to proliferate by the establishment, for change is not in the interest of the powers that be.

Just don't - you're not explaining anything that has already been explained to him several times before. The only person here that's got unquestioning and unwavering support for violence and acts of criminality is ROTS for the police. He's just derailing/distracting.

dude I can't strawberry floating stand it he's been doing it for like two weeks now, it's getting ridiculous
Maybe you're right but I don't want to believe that even the most obstinate of reactionaries can't eventually see reason

Edit - the original was meant to be a PM sorry!
Oh I know it winds me up something rotten and I was angry as hell. But then I realised everyone knew exactly what he was, I didn't need to waste time and energy telling people what they already knew..
Good luck with that - you're going to be disappointed. When someone tells you they are, repeatedly. Believe them.

dw I do that sometimes too
Yeah maybe you're right, I took a break (ish) from this thread for a couple of days because it was getting nowhere, but to that point I don't really understand why he's continuing like this. It certainly derails and moves attention away from actual discussions on police brutality and state overreach.

[Moggy]

[

The male holding the ‘kill cops’ banner is Barrett Brown, an American left wing journalist who works for the Guardian amongst other news media.

He hasn't written for the Guardian for 6 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/profile/barrett-brown

And? He’s still clearly not working undercover for the police like some people seem to think because some clever clogs on twitter decided he is. He’s a left wing journalist that’s clearly trying to stir gooseberry fool up.

It's not accurate to say "who works for the Guardian" when he hasn't done so since Nick Clegg was deputy PM.

Left wing? Irrelevant.

Journalist? Irrelevant.

Stirring gooseberry fool up? Well holding up a banner like that makes that pretty damn obvious.

[Tomous]

[

The male holding the ‘kill cops’ banner is Barrett Brown, an American left wing journalist who works for the Guardian amongst other news media.

He hasn't written for the Guardian for 6 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/profile/barrett-brown

Think he's been busy trying to avoid federal prison.

He has had a pretty crazy life.

[Return_of_the_STAR]

[

The male holding the ‘kill cops’ banner is Barrett Brown, an American left wing journalist who works for the Guardian amongst other news media.

He hasn't written for the Guardian for 6 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/profile/barrett-brown

And? He’s still clearly not working undercover for the police like some people seem to think because some clever clogs on twitter decided he is. He’s a left wing journalist that’s clearly trying to stir gooseberry fool up.

It's not accurate to say "who works for the Guardian" when he hasn't done so since Nick Clegg was deputy PM.

Left wing? Irrelevant.

Journalist? Irrelevant.

Stirring gooseberry fool up? Well holding up a banner like that makes that pretty damn obvious.

It’s relevant that he’s left wing and a journalist because the story/conspiracy going around and believed by a lot of people was that he was working for the police. I was simply posting who he was and I thought he worked for the guardian still. It was an honest error.

[Return_of_the_STAR]

[

The male holding the ‘kill cops’ banner is Barrett Brown, an American left wing journalist who works for the Guardian amongst other news media.

He hasn't written for the Guardian for 6 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/profile/barrett-brown

Think he's been busy trying to avoid federal prison.

He has had a pretty crazy life.

Well that makes sense, I didn’t know a lot about him. I assume he’s got mental health issues from what I’ve now heard.

[Moggy]

[

The male holding the ‘kill cops’ banner is Barrett Brown, an American left wing journalist who works for the Guardian amongst other news media.

He hasn't written for the Guardian for 6 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/profile/barrett-brown

And? He’s still clearly not working undercover for the police like some people seem to think because some clever clogs on twitter decided he is. He’s a left wing journalist that’s clearly trying to stir gooseberry fool up.

It's not accurate to say "who works for the Guardian" when he hasn't done so since Nick Clegg was deputy PM.

Left wing? Irrelevant.

Journalist? Irrelevant.

Stirring gooseberry fool up? Well holding up a banner like that makes that pretty damn obvious.

It’s relevant that he’s left wing and a journalist because the story/conspiracy going around and believed by a lot of people was that he was working for the police. I was simply posting who he was and I thought he worked for the guardian still. It was an honest error.

A left wing journalist couldn't work for/with the police?

The idea of him holding up the banner as part of an elaborate police set up is silly. But so's using "he's a left wing Guardian journalist" as some sort of evidence.

[Hypes]

I still can’t believe so many people on here support acts of criminality and violence as a form of protest. This is where we differ and will never agree. We all have different lines I could only support anything on this level if there was a genuine civil war or military coup or something. Not protesting against a government bill. How does it help make a point to the government by attacking and abusing general members of the public, damaging private property, blocking roads. It just turns people against you.

What if that government bill severely restricted your rights?
You seriously don't support any protest that blocks a road?

[Return_of_the_STAR]

[

The male holding the ‘kill cops’ banner is Barrett Brown, an American left wing journalist who works for the Guardian amongst other news media.

He hasn't written for the Guardian for 6 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/profile/barrett-brown

And? He’s still clearly not working undercover for the police like some people seem to think because some clever clogs on twitter decided he is. He’s a left wing journalist that’s clearly trying to stir gooseberry fool up.

It's not accurate to say "who works for the Guardian" when he hasn't done so since Nick Clegg was deputy PM.

Left wing? Irrelevant.

Journalist? Irrelevant.

Stirring gooseberry fool up? Well holding up a banner like that makes that pretty damn obvious.

It’s relevant that he’s left wing and a journalist because the story/conspiracy going around and believed by a lot of people was that he was working for the police. I was simply posting who he was and I thought he worked for the guardian still. It was an honest error.

A left wing journalist couldn't work for/with the police?

The idea of him holding up the banner as part of an elaborate police set up is silly. But so's using "he's a left wing Guardian journalist" as some sort of evidence.

I disagree. There would have to be some proper dodgy underworld gooseberry fool going on for someone in the police to manage to set up a male to hold up a ‘kill cops’ banner and be known by hundreds of officers from different departments and forces to be able to hide and protect him. If that happens and it doesn’t get out to the media then I would be shocked.

Clearly you don’t believe this is what happened so I’m not arguing with you about it. I only mentioned who he was as I was answering something Taf had said by pointing out who he was.

[Moggy]

[

The male holding the ‘kill cops’ banner is Barrett Brown, an American left wing journalist who works for the Guardian amongst other news media.

He hasn't written for the Guardian for 6 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/profile/barrett-brown

And? He’s still clearly not working undercover for the police like some people seem to think because some clever clogs on twitter decided he is. He’s a left wing journalist that’s clearly trying to stir gooseberry fool up.

It's not accurate to say "who works for the Guardian" when he hasn't done so since Nick Clegg was deputy PM.

Left wing? Irrelevant.

Journalist? Irrelevant.

Stirring gooseberry fool up? Well holding up a banner like that makes that pretty damn obvious.

It’s relevant that he’s left wing and a journalist because the story/conspiracy going around and believed by a lot of people was that he was working for the police. I was simply posting who he was and I thought he worked for the guardian still. It was an honest error.

A left wing journalist couldn't work for/with the police?

The idea of him holding up the banner as part of an elaborate police set up is silly. But so's using "he's a left wing Guardian journalist" as some sort of evidence.

I disagree. There would have to be some proper dodgy underworld gooseberry fool going on for someone in the police to manage to set up a male to hold up a ‘kill cops’ banner and be known by hundreds of officers from different departments and forces to be able to hide and protect him. If that happens and it doesn’t get out to the media then I would be shocked.

Clearly you don’t believe this is what happened so I’m not arguing with you about it. I only mentioned who he was as I was answering something Taf had said by pointing out who he was.

You're agreeing with me. I said it was silly.

But if somebody thinks that the police told this guy to do it or that he did it to support the police, then it's no more silly to think he's a left wing Guardian journalist.

[Tomous]

He's responded to the picture going viral and the rumours if anyone is interested:

https://barrettbrown.medium.com/andy-ng ... 01d2f357d0

[Return_of_the_STAR]

I still can’t believe so many people on here support acts of criminality and violence as a form of protest. This is where we differ and will never agree. We all have different lines I could only support anything on this level if there was a genuine civil war or military coup or something. Not protesting against a government bill. How does it help make a point to the government by attacking and abusing general members of the public, damaging private property, blocking roads. It just turns people against you.

What if that government bill severely restricted your rights?
You seriously don't support any protest that blocks a road?

No I’ve said in a different post that organised marches and protests that give enough notice to the general population are acceptable in my eyes. This is only an opinion, I accept others have different ones. But don’t forget wilful obstruction of the highway is an offence.

We had one in Northampton on Saturday, their route was publicised before hand and people knew to avoid certain roads if they didn’t want to be disadvantaged. However due to covid this wasn’t an official, organised one with the local authority but it still went ahead with little incident and was very peaceful.

[Return_of_the_STAR]

He's responded to the picture going viral and the rumours if anyone is interested:

https://barrettbrown.medium.com/andy-ng ... 01d2f357d0

Thanks, glad he’s responded. Interesting read.

Some of the comments on his blog are pretty interesting, including the one who still doesn’t believe him

[Return_of_the_STAR]

[

The male holding the ‘kill cops’ banner is Barrett Brown, an American left wing journalist who works for the Guardian amongst other news media.

He hasn't written for the Guardian for 6 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/profile/barrett-brown

And? He’s still clearly not working undercover for the police like some people seem to think because some clever clogs on twitter decided he is. He’s a left wing journalist that’s clearly trying to stir gooseberry fool up.

It's not accurate to say "who works for the Guardian" when he hasn't done so since Nick Clegg was deputy PM.

Left wing? Irrelevant.

Journalist? Irrelevant.

Stirring gooseberry fool up? Well holding up a banner like that makes that pretty damn obvious.

It’s relevant that he’s left wing and a journalist because the story/conspiracy going around and believed by a lot of people was that he was working for the police. I was simply posting who he was and I thought he worked for the guardian still. It was an honest error.

A left wing journalist couldn't work for/with the police?

The idea of him holding up the banner as part of an elaborate police set up is silly. But so's using "he's a left wing Guardian journalist" as some sort of evidence.

I disagree. There would have to be some proper dodgy underworld gooseberry fool going on for someone in the police to manage to set up a male to hold up a ‘kill cops’ banner and be known by hundreds of officers from different departments and forces to be able to hide and protect him. If that happens and it doesn’t get out to the media then I would be shocked.

Clearly you don’t believe this is what happened so I’m not arguing with you about it. I only mentioned who he was as I was answering something Taf had said by pointing out who he was.

You're agreeing with me. I said it was silly.

But if somebody thinks that the police told this guy to do it or that he did it to support the police, then it's no more silly to think he's a left wing Guardian journalist.

Stop going on about the guardian thing, I’ve already said I was mistaken

I still think the left wing holds merit as this is a very left wing protest. But that’s just my opinion.

[Tafdolphin]

[

The male holding the ‘kill cops’ banner is Barrett Brown, an American left wing journalist who works for the Guardian amongst other news media.

He hasn't written for the Guardian for 6 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/profile/barrett-brown

And? He’s still clearly not working undercover for the police like some people seem to think because some clever clogs on twitter decided he is. He’s a left wing journalist that’s clearly trying to stir gooseberry fool up.

The male holding the ‘kill cops’ banner is Barrett Brown, an American left wing journalist who works for the Guardian amongst other news media.

He's described as anti-left here

twitter.com/Groot66/status/1378657238068379648

From a momentary bit of research he's an agent provocateur only out for himself. The mirror of Andy Ngo. Nobody likes him. And he was seen behind police lines later on.

The original banner read Cops Kill. It was co-opted by an arsehole for a cheap bit of publicity and the police used it as an excuse to label the whole protest as threatening.

I do not support obstructing the general members of the public from going about their normal lives. I don’t think it’s acceptable. Protests can be held on pedestrianised streets, in parks, public squares also by working with local authorities to block off roads should that be required before hand. However covid has thrown all of this out of the window. Planned, organised marches are totally acceptable in normal times.

Protesting is something that should always remain a human right. Violence is not.

I think they are the only questions you directed to me.

Love the bolded bit. Violence is only justified when enacted by the state.

You know which political ideologies agree with you there...right?

[Hypes]

I still can’t believe so many people on here support acts of criminality and violence as a form of protest. This is where we differ and will never agree. We all have different lines I could only support anything on this level if there was a genuine civil war or military coup or something. Not protesting against a government bill. How does it help make a point to the government by attacking and abusing general members of the public, damaging private property, blocking roads. It just turns people against you.

What if that government bill severely restricted your rights?
You seriously don't support any protest that blocks a road?

No I’ve said in a different post that organised marches and protests that give enough notice to the general population are acceptable in my eyes. This is only an opinion, I accept others have different ones. But don’t forget wilful obstruction of the highway is an offence.

So is parking on the pavement, so is littering, so is attempting to run people over

We had one in Northampton on Saturday, their route was publicised before hand and people knew to avoid certain roads if they didn’t want to be disadvantaged. However due to covid this wasn’t an official, organised one with the local authority but it still went ahead with little incident and was very peaceful.

Why didn't the police shut it down?

[Green Gecko]

If I may participate in this discussion with being embroiled yet again in policy I would say that what is deemed "criminality" or "criminal behaviour" depends largely on what constitutes a "criminal act" according to that state and also importantly how that law is invoked.

For example, being gay used to be a "criminal" act (or was it a civic offence?). The difference between criminality and a crime versus crime and "offence" is also relevant.

I don't personally condone violent forms of protect but disruption is an essential part of effective demonstration or the protest would be pointless.

And the controversy surrounding this bill, well this is the whole sodding point, does this or that form of protest constitute a crime or not. And does committing a crime make you a "criminal exhibiting criminality", like some kind of irrevocable race of goblins, or simply a mild pain in the backside for the forces in question.

[Moggy]

twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1379370621663076354

"I'm so glad I am paying lots of money for this gooseberry fool service rather than getting it for free!"

[Tomous]

You can imagine smugly typing up those tweets thinking, yeah! This will really stick it to Corbyn, when in fact he has just shown himself yet again to be a strawberry floating idiot.

[Squinty]

Darren 'too stupid to fill a form out' Grimes.